Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Dodges a bullet and throws his shield after it's been fired at point-blank range:Leaps and deflects bullets with his shield after they've been fired across a room:
Throws his shield in mid leap and ricochets it and vaults across a room, catching up to it at the end of it's flight path:
Throws his shield, which ricochets a few times and manages to shoulder flip Flag Smasher into it's flight path:
Kicks the crap outta some several thugs who have formed a semi-circle defensive formation while outrunning a gunman's sights:
Your turn. Prove Batman's faster than that.
Very well, then.
-Dodges 13 out of 14 bullets shot at him while in point blank range, while hanging onto a rope and in an uncomfortable position to dodge bullets.
-Dodges three of Mr. Freeze's quick-moving projectiles while at absolute point-blank range, using advanced acorbatics and speed.
-Dodges all of the bullets fired by a submachine gun and proceeds to blitz the gunman and defeat him with a single strike.
-Dodges the Reaper's bullets at an extremely close range, and then owning him with a kick to the face.
Rushes into a crowd of armed gunmen who have him cornered and surrounded, only to beat them all without apparent difficulty.
Batman certainly isn't faster, but I would say that they are on par.
Originally posted by Sado22
agreed.
Good.
Originally posted by Sado22
don't know if he's more unpredictable than frankie. its arguable.
as for sadism and ruthlessness...well, frank has the highest kill rate in Marvel. well above gods, metahumans and all those mutants, Frank STILL has the highest kill rate. in one day, he killed 20,000 people by dropping a nuke on them (notice that his kill rate is higher BARRING the nuke. with it, he'd just make everyone cry). did joker kill that many in one day? no. has he even dropped a nuke successfully? no.
Same with the Joker- destroyed the universe multiple times, killed a massive portion of the world's population in the 'Last Laugh' storyline- that's beyond a 'nuke'- and also killed thousands of innocent people personally, just for the fun of it- even Frank has a 'logical' reason. The Joker massacres people because it's fun.
Who is more twisted and evil? And who can fool the world's greatest detective?
Originally posted by Sado22
agreed, for the sake of argument.
Goody.
Originally posted by Sado22
he said the same about Catwoman once. was this early in his career or later? nwayz, granted, joker has speed. but whether its more or less than what frank has dealt with his highly unlikely. beating Bullseye in h2h and crippling him tells us a lot. and we're talking about Bullseye who can surprise the hell out of people like DareDevil.
And Bullseye is on par with Batman on speed how? I just posted some of Batman's feats- anyone who can be temporarily as fast, or even faster than that and is still a human is definetly above the Punisher in terms of speed.
Oh, and Catwoman is also known for her speed and agility, and the last time I checked, the Joker beat her when they fought in physical combat.
Originally posted by Sado22
read all the major arcs of batman. he's never done something impressive. in fact, he's always disappointed me with his predictability.
Last Laugh? Emperor Joker? Even in more 'minor' storylines, he gets virtual control of Hush thanks to the pacemaker installed in Hush's heart. Could you have seen the outcome of his plans in, say, No Man's Land? Just kill every kid born during that saga in order to kill hope?
You make me 'lol'.
Originally posted by Sado22
gas, prep and guns<<<<<<<<<<<<<no gas, no prep and no gun. no hard feelings, but you failed badly there.
No hard feelings.
That being said, though, the Joker fought Batman evenly more than once- the same Batman that is vastly superior to Frank in fighting feats.
Originally posted by Sado22
Can joker pick up and hold a full grown man by one hand over a building? no. can he toss around same full grown man? no. punch through doors and walls? no.
i've never seen joker do anything phsyically impressive.
*Sigh*. Even if's not strength, the Joker constantly displays speeds on par with the pinnacle of what a human can be- that's already 'physically impressive' and above Frank's own ability.
DC's 'Who's Who' states that his strength levels can be absolutely abnormal. That's enough to qualify him as able to compete- on a physical level- with Frank.
Originally posted by Sado22
alright, so bloodlusted joker has a chance. but only against regular frank.
'blood lusted frank' not only held his own but killed Barracuda, The Russian, killed 100 armed vietcong soldiers while suffering from several gunshots and phsyical and mental trauma. in fact, 'serious frank' stalemated DareDevil and held his own against Tombstone (and now pay attention) in a toe-to-toe fight. the amount of power tombstone packs was something even DareDevil was afraid of. Is joker sort-of-meta like Tombstone? no.
The Joker also held his own- and even got royal kick in the nuts- against AQUAMAN, another 'serious meta'-level person. Ergo? Both can hold their owns against metahumans, if the right conditions are met (*cough*plotgods*cough*).
'Bloodlusted' Joker essentially stalemated Batman in physical combat, and while I will argue that Batman is regularly superior to the Joker in unarmed combat, that's enough to qualify that 'bloodlusted' Joker > 'bloodlusted' Frank- by feats and displays, Batman > Daredevil, except for 'sensory perception'.
It's already proven that the Joker is actually a match for Batman when absolutely, absolutely serious and bloodlusted. Can Frank do as much?
Originally posted by Sado22
fact of the matter is, even if joker goes bloodlusted, he still wouldn't shitstomp frank....and frank goes bloodlusted himself, god save joker.
Frank Bloodlusted > Joker not bloodlusted. Joker bloodlusted > Frank not bloodlusted. Joker not bloodlusted <=> (I can't quite tell) Frank not bloodlusted. Joker Bloodlusted > Frank Bloodlusted.
This is going by their individual feats; neither will shitstomp the other in any sort of situation.
Originally posted by Sado22
like what? once. doesn't count. especially since Joker can't hit harder than tombstone. neither can bats for that matter.
Already proven that Joker, when necessary, will stand up to Bats.
And no, Joker can't hit harder than Tombstone- but he has held off his own share of highly impressive foes.
Originally posted by Sado22
no, not really. so did he? and was it canon?
can catwoman beat DareDevil, Bullseye, Tombstone? no. can she even stand a chance in a straight up fight? barely. Can she beat them? no.
Wolverine's cheap regeneration system grants him victory against virtually any non-enhanced human; Batman, the Joker, and Daredevil all count.
And Captain America, from what I've seen is, at best, on par with Batman- most likely lower, actually, considering that Batman has his inticrate and highly advanced knowledge of virtually all martial arts in existence. Did Punisher have him at his mercy in pure, close-ranged combat? I highly, highly doubt it.
Originally posted by Sado22
probably. i'd say DD and Bats is 50/50.
but this is besides the point.
Batman, IMO, should take a relatively decisive majority. But yeah, that's besides the point.
Originally posted by Sado22
yes, i've read "the killing joke" just as i've read all the important arcs of "The Overly Stale Batman". not only was he runnign away scared but barely managed to do any damage to Bats. using his cowl against him, was resourceful, but nothing compared to Frank. Frank held his own against Wolverine in a straight up fight by using the envirnoment against him. he surprised DD and crippled him in a straight fight TWICE because of his resroucefulness and presence of mind and killed The Russian again because of his resourcefulness. heck, he used a hot pizza against The Russian and won 😂
you seriously need to read up "Weclome back, Frank".
You have revealed your motives in this point; the 'overly stale Batman'. I can also tell you the same if I say "The one-dimensional Punisher'.
Batman is, in my opinion, the greatest superhero of all time. But hey? That's just my opinion.
Also, the Joker's resourcefulness- from often using the environment to his advantage in combat and actually forming one of the most lethal toxins in existence from common household materials > Frank's.
Originally posted by Sado22
has joker ever bitten off a chunk of Batman's face? no.
The psychological damage the Joker has done to Batman is far, far worse.
Originally posted by Sado22
has he bitten off someone's nose or ear? no.
He drove multiple people insane and killed dozens of innocents on a whim.
Originally posted by Sado22
punched someone so hard in the mouth it went down his throat and then opened his hand? no.
Shot someone and showed pictures of that certain someone while nude, in a state of vulnerability and bleeding to death to that someone's father?
Disfigured people and killed them?
Originally posted by Sado22
put someone in the mincemeat machine? no.
Laced someone with poison just to get out of a paycheck? No.
Taken apart people's faces with a toxin just in order to practice? Nope.
Originally posted by Sado22
tossed someone off the empire state building? no.
Taunted someone while being beaten to death, taunting them about the deaths of their comrades? No.
Originally posted by Sado22
planted C4's in a building and blew it up WHILE INSIDE? no.
Legitimately been proven to not be afraid of anything? No.
hack someone to death with a crowbar? well, okay, so he's done that.
Originally posted by Sado22
killed 20,000 people in one night? no.
Destroyed the universe multiple times, and killed someone many, many times, shattering their minds? NO.
Originally posted by Sado22
THAT is unpredictable and sadistic.
What the Joker has done is much more so.
Originally posted by Sado22
Frank's outfit is the rubber variety. it won't work.
Face, hands, etc? Perhaps the needle can penetrate the rubber? Sometimes the Joker is displayed to use a needle instead of just the joybuzzer.
Originally posted by Sado22
do you really have something to say besides quoting DC, who possibly make the most onedimensional, shallow characters in comicbook history?
I've listed feats and quotes, and refuted your points; the Joker is both more intelligent, more sadistic, and more brutal than Punisher.
Oh, and I agree with you that Marvel > DC, in general. Except for Batman. Sufficiently complex and human, fitted with one of the most sadistic and psychopathic rogue galleries ever.
Originally posted by Sado22
arguable at best.
-DareDevil and Bats is 50/50 and he isn't more conditioned than Matt since Matt is also peak human.
-Bullseye and Bats would go to Bats but not in an easy fight, and he'd probably never pwn him the way Frank did.
-Tombstone- bats isn't beating him toe-to-toe for sure, since neither can DD.
-Wolverine- as much as i hate this short, hairy piece of shit, Batman would go down hard in a fight against him. Frank held his own against him for a whole length of an issue.can Joker soak damage like Frank? no. hell no.
The Joker literally laughed off the pain done to him while receiving severe beatings, was shot multiple times and still survived, took massive falls and lived to tell the tale? When did Frank do that?
Daredevil < Batman. Feats and quotes prove it; Batman has superior strength and speed feats, to boot.
Originally posted by Sado22
Frank was about to beat Black Widow hadn't it been for interruptions.
Joker could have killed Batman more than once if he wanted to.
Originally posted by Sado22
the insane, psycho clown whose kill number is no where close to Frank's. and frank doesn't do it for "revenge". it began as revenge but its pure hatred.
Destroying the universe > dropping a nuke, wouldn't ya say?
The Joker had achieved world-class feats far in access of Punisher's; he killed just as many people personally, as well.
Originally posted by Sado22
sure, go ahead.~Sado
Well, won't post scans at the moment, but other than the Aquaman battle, I'll at least tell you that when 'fighting' Nightwing, the Joker purposefully gave up an opportunity to shoot Nightwing dead, and when he got serious, easily landed a few blows on Nightwing- he let Nightwing beat him to death intentionally, believing that he was about to die anyway. All in the end of 'The Last Laugh'.
Yeah, there's the Cassie Cain deal, murder of certain cops with his bare hands (he once crushed a cop's throat using his handcuffs, got his gun, and shot down a room full of officers). Yeah, Punisher isn't far ahead in any category, except for maybe gun skills.
