Before I move on with the thousands of posts already put in here (Damnit, this thread is ACTIVE), I'll deal with my of view on the Joker vs. Punisher in pure H2H; I don't think the Joker will take a majority, but he has a chance. He can compete physically thanks to crazy speed and strength, and also has the advantage of sadism and pure unpredictability well above Frank's own; he can certainly bloody the Punisher up. Beat him more than 5/10 times? Nope. But he can hold his own without being owned like a little girl. If Batman can't do it, Frank sure as hell can't do it either.
On another note, here is what I think will be the outcome:
One-sided prep for the Punisher: 8/10 Punisher Victory
Two-Sided Prep: 8/10 Joker Victory
Long-Ranged Arena Combat: 7/10 Punisher Victory
Close-Ranged Arena Combat: 6/10 Joker Victory
There ya go. And the Joker winning close-ranged is thanks to his lethal array of weapons as much as it is due to his H2H skills.
Originally posted by Sado22
surprise is different from speed. i can distract bats with a flashbang or acid sprinke and punk him in the face if i had to. its not a speed feat.
RIGHT. Now, to own it with two quotes coming from the same on-shot comic:
"Damn it. He's fast and I'm distracted."- Batman acknolwedging the Joker's speed right after the Joker releases himself from a direct deathgrip by Batman using no weapons.
However, perhaps more meaningful is this: "Keep forgetting how fast he is..."- These are Batman's thoughts as the Joker, without the element of surprise and after a conversation, charges him and hits him with a knee to the chin. Speed feat, proving that his speed- which is sufficient to hit Batman hard- is above Frank's own.
Originally posted by Sado22
you obviously haven't read up enough Punisher.
You obviously haven't read enough Joker.
Originally posted by Sado22
let me ask you a question:
would you call it superhuman if i take out a 100 man armed Vietnam soldiers single handedly with the butt of my rifle?
you would in the same way you described jokers "superhuman" strength. and while the most joker has done is run away from Batman, Frank in bloodlusted mode has take out 100 soldiers in vietnam with only the butt of his rifle. on top of that, he has taken hits from the likes of Tombstone and the Russian.
Joker doesn't stand a chance CQC.
Incorrect; the Joker had killed similar amounts of people all at once. Granted, it was with gas, prep, and guns, but it's still impressive.
Aside from that, the Joker's speed is on par with Batman's own, and his strength is enhanced to somewhat superhuman levels- Frank isn't known to be able to generate strength like that. He's no Batman.
Aside from that, when bloodlusted- such as in the great comic Mad Love- the Joker has attacked Batman and more than held his own. In fact, he almost got Batman there. Yeah, the Joker may run away from Batman when he has nothing to gain by owning him (the Joker likes to play with Batman, not kill him), but when bloodlusted, the Joker will be more than happy to engage Batman in physical combat.
Did I mention that he also defeated Catwoman in physical combat once?
Originally posted by Sado22
true, joker is unpredictable and that can be used against Frank. but you're talking about a guy whose fought toe-to-toe with DareDevil and stalemated him in a full combat (the only time frank actually fought DD seriously) and humiliated him another time...heck, he even crippled bullseye. and let me stress that as far as reaction time goes, DareDevil clearly is above Batman.
Yeah, Daredevil may have reflexes superior to Batman's, but Batman is better conditioned and a better martial artist- I, myself, will not be surprised if Batman will defeat Daredevil if they fight.
Originally posted by Sado22
Yes, joker IS unpredictable. but so is frank. i'm tlaking about a guy who'se not above kicking sand in your eyes, biting off your cheek or eye, shooting people in the balls and steam rolling them, or punching his whole fist into the person's mouth and opening his hand. and lastly, unlike batman, Frank has always fought dirty. he's not only a good Martial artist but also improvisational brawler/street fighter................something Joker isn't.
Ha. Ha. Ha.
Sorry, you just described the Joker with your analysis- crazy and resourceful, an an excellent brawler who will cheat if he has to. Want an example? In The Killing Joke, the Joker uses Batman's cowl against him and uses a wooden block nearby to hit Batman. Not cheating? Yeah, the Joker is a cheater and a resourceful fighter- he's also more intelligent and unpredictable than Frank.
Originally posted by Sado22
true.
You betcha.
Originally posted by Sado22
frank carries (in his own words) a Ka-bar army knife, a variety of throwing knives and a secondary knife at all times. and he's damn good with 'em too going so far as to beat people with guns to it and went can hang with Bullseye in a knife fights and H2h.
Well, the Joker also commonly uses knives while fighting; and his electrical joy buzzer gives him an immediate edge in H2H combat, considering that even a slight tap on one of Punisher's exposed areas will be lethal; the Joker, being at the very least as fast as Frank, can do it.
Originally posted by Sado22
i doubt frank is gonna shake hands with him. the level to which punisher hates criminals, he'd probably open fire the moment joker offers his hand. Frank=real psycho
The Joker = possibly the most sadistic and murderous supervillain in comic book history. Why? He doesn't do things for money or for power. He kills people for fun, as he says to Luthor (in another great Joker moment) while fighting him in Salvation Run.
And you don't have to shake hands with someone to nail 'em with the joy buzzer. Don't be stupid.
Originally posted by Sado22
frank could use that actually 😂
If Joker was a pathetic weakling that is nothing compared to Frank. He ISN'T.
Originally posted by Sado22
sorry, but i disagree. when its all said and done, Frank is full of surprises himself, is definitely more vicious, is more rage driven and hence more "superhuman" by your own definition and has more feats in H2h combat. also he has more durability, having survived toe-to-toe fights with the likes of Tombstone and The Russian.
Right. And the Joker 'survived' toe-to-toe fights with Batman, who is superior to anyone Punisher ever physically fought and lived- bloodying up Cassandra Cain and defeating Catwoman in physical combat are some of Joker's feats. Yeah, who is more vicious? The insane, psychopathic killer clown who kills people randomly because it's fun, or the revenge-driven vigilante? The Joker is more ruthless, sadistic, and murderous. You must know him from Batman TAS or the 50's if you think that he isn't as vicious and deranged as Frank.
Originally posted by Sado22
Frank kills Joker 9/10.
If the Joker is sitting somewhere and Frank is a mile away, sniping him down while the Joker has no knowledge of Frank's existence.
That's hardly the case.
By the way, would you like me to post scans of some of the Joker's physical feats? I can, you know.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Colonel de sade, the guy sent him a snuff video were he killed young women on it. 😐 in my opinion thats worse then what Joker did to Barbara. All it did was make Punisher focus....oh and that guy skinned a women alive in vietnam the guy is more sadistic than Joker. He only had two showings because Punisher killed him.
So, because of two showings, you think he's more sadistic than the Joker?
I'm sorry, but I can't help but cry out 'EPIC FAIL!'
The Joker- what he's done to Barbara- is personal. It's not random women being killed live. It's Gordon's daughter, who he undressed, took photos of, and showed it to her father, forced to watch his undressed, helpless daugher supposedly bleeding to death; all the while the Joker twists his head with oddly rational explanations for his insanity why rules are not necessarily. That's one of the most twisted things ever done in comics.
Did you see the photos of the people who killed in 'The Man Who Laughs'? Deformed, destroyed, and all because it was 'practice'. He also killed people live on television, in front of the entire friggin' world.
H
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
e didn't fight them personally he defeated there plans. That doesnt matter anyway because were not talking about 1 on 1 fights but prep. You want me to prove that Doom is more inteligent than Joker? Doom has been a universal threat three times. How many times has Joker done that? Also Doom has conquered the earth at least once. The High Evolutinary used his intelligence to give himself god-like powers.
The Joker doesn't have anything approaching Doom's resources or mystical knowledge; he also essentially conquered the world with almost nothing than a formula created from everyday materials, which he used to take over the minds of some of the world's most powerful metahumans, such as doomsday.
The Joker, with his limited resources, took over the world. Now THAT'S impressive.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
PLEASE! The trap in killing joke was spikes covered by a wooden trap door. The trap that Punsiher avoided was spikes covered by grass. Yes they are different but I gues because they are not 100 % the same theres no way in hell that Punisher would notice.
1. Show me who designed KP's security. There are other small touches we could have missed.
2. The Joker's traps fooled someone superior to Frank; that much is clear. Besides, spikes aren't the Joker's only weapon; gas that can enter in ways other than the mouth, darts that can be dipped with a lethal toxin, etc, etc, etc.
Joker >>>> Frank in prep.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Like I said he didn't not recognise the trap because grass was standing up or anything, he just got a feeling.
And what makes you think he'll get the magical feeling again, when the Joker is logically smarter than the no-name who designed KP's security? Unless you can get me his name?
By the way, the Joker also foiled an assassination attempts by Deathstroke and very nearly killed him; Deathstroke is an assassin, one of the greatest and most intelligent ones in the DC universe.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You really don't know who Dr Doom is do you? Like I said hes achieved more than Joker has. I can't remember whats traps hes used but hes is more intelligent than JOker is. Doom is a time travel expert for crying out loud. His main enemy is Reed Richards (Mister Fantastic) who is more intelligent than Batman. If you don't know you had better ask somebody or go to the respect thread.
Scientific intelligence, and ingenuity/knowledge of traps/psychological mastery are very different. Reed Richards may be one of the world's greatest scientists- and Batman isn't- but Batman is also proficient in many intellectual aspects that Reed is not proficient with.
Also, the Joker is as smart as Batman, who is smarter than Frank. By far.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Is that what you mean? Of course if he does that it can be lethal.
Well, I'm pretty sure it can be absorbed through the skin, although I can't think of an example at the moment; still, his needles and spikes can be dipped with the liquid venom. If the Punisher even gets grazed by the spikes, he's f*cked.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Oh please give me a break. Why are you assuming that Joker can get him in that poistion in the first place. You're just making up scenerios now.
Why not? Batman is often fooled by the Joker's traps; if he can fool the 'world's greatest detective', he can fool a crazy vigilante with a gun. How about he ends up in the Joker's lair, gets gassed, somehow avoids it and proceeds to be gunned down? How will he avoid it?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He doesn't have to be extremely stupid. Im not arguing that Joker isn't smart but you don't even know wether Mxy has genuis level intelligence, theres nothing to indicate in Mxys showings that he has above average intelligence.
Well, it's still a highly impressive feat; I can't really figure out how the Joker tricked him. Can you? Obviously it was a smart move; even Mxy referred to him as smart while describing that event.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Whats your point?
That Doom defeating an omniscent being doesn't mean jackshit, because in terms of power, he's far stronger than the Joker, and any street-leveller, for that.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He was a universal threat once? Well i got three examples for Doom. I also thinks hes conquered the earth twice.
The Joker has done as much with far, far less.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Doom >> Joker.
Power? Yeah. Intelligence that is not scientific? Nope.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Doom doesn't have cosmic powers whats your point? HE (High Evolutinary) may have cosmic powers but he used his intelligence to create them, he also has more advanced tech than Joker can create etc etc.
Again; when do his actual planning, capturing, and trap feats rival the Joker's in any form?
Also, Joker Venom is incredible simple, and yet only the Joker was ever able to create it.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Colonel de Sade has done stuff more twisted than Joker has.
No, he hasn't.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah he fooled him with a piece of wood...LOL. Anyway Doom has outmsarted Reed Richards before , who is more intelligent than Batman, so that don't neccesarily prove anything.
In planning, detective, and psychological skills?
And he fooled Batman countless time.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Doesn't matter anyway just because Joker has tricked Batman doesnt means hes tricking Frank as explained earlier.
You're correct, if only for the matter that Batman is a greater detective, tracker, and logician than Frank can ever, ever hope to be. Frankie is going to be fooled quite badly.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats not what I said is it? Cap is more intelligent than Frank is, however that didn't stop Cap from using his plan of attack instead of his own.
Cap is more intelligent than Frank? Please, prove it.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Doesn't matter I already explained this.
Same.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL what have I been talking about for the last couple of posts. Doom tried to kill him twice he failed. HE tried to kill him he failed. Thats all you need to know stop trying to nitpick and make excuses.
Did Doom full-heartedly try to kill him, with absolutely all of his resources and his intelligence?
I can always pull your card and say that Doom failing to kill him doesn't matter, just like the Joker fooling Batman, to you, doesn't matter. Hypocrisy hypocrisy. Such an ugly thing.
Now you're just making stuff up. You're not an expert at making traps you don't know that but im sure you can convince yourself that its true.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I don't bloody know but I know KP doesnt hire crap. The only reason why I brought up this point was to tell you that what the guy did was impressive. He may not be on par with the Joker but HE and Doom are better.
No, they aren't; no in terms of short-term plans, ingenuity, and creativity. If the Joker had their resources, he would simply be incredible; he essentially conquered the world with far less than Doom.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Please GMAFB! The traps were very similar, stop nitpicking. Yes they were not exactly the same but there not exactly miles a part either.
Already addressed.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok Frank has blasted Cap twice from long range. Cap >>>>> joker in speed. The reason why Cass had a problem with Joker was because she could not read his body language not because he was fast.
Oh, PLEASE. Do you think Cap >>>>>> Batman in speed? Do you? Cap may be enhanced, but he's still only a highly enhanced human; Batman is absolute, absolute, absolute peak, as well, and the Joker displayed speed sufficient to knock Batman on his ass and surprise him with his attacks.
Cass? Do you really think that she only has her body-reading abilities? She's also a grandmaster martial artist; if she could've owned the Joker without that ability, she would have. She resorted to weird tricks in order to save her ass.
In close-ranged combat, the Joker CAN defeat The Punisher. I've already said that he will lose in a long-ranged, non-prep match.
Oh, and in Mad Love, a bloodlusted Joker hit Batman several times and pressed him back. I'd love to see the Punisher pulling that off.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Does anyone think Punisher stands any chance against Doom with prep to the best of his abilities?
Does anyone think Punisher stands any chance against High Evolutionary with prep to the best of his abilities?
Does anyone think that low showings by either character means that a character needs to match or surpass Doom or HE prepwise/featwise at their best to be able to conclusively say a character beats Punisher?The sequence goes only you and Tweedle Dumber, thrice.
Doom having trouble killing the Punisher is not a low-showing. Frank has shown to be more resourceful than Captain America whos tricked Red Skull many a time and Doom gives RS props. Pun has also come close to killing Cap than most villains have thats without having to use strength dampeners and hypnosis.
The plan to kill Punisher were exactly the same as he used to try and kill other heroes. I guess all those were low showings as well. The plan is also not different from other plans he used in the past eg Knights of Wundagore.
Originally posted by Master CrimzonThat Doom defeating an omniscent being doesn't mean jackshit, because in terms of power, he's far stronger than the Joker, and any street-leveller, for that.
Please think about what you just said there. Im sorry but that was really really stupid. If you can't see the stupidity in that statement why should I bother replying to the rest?
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Right. Now, I've never read that comic when he supposedly beat an omniscent being in actual combat- as you've led me to believe- and if he did do that, it's power, not intelligence.That's how you put it. Or are there details I missed?
Er no... 😕 First of all the being was ominipotent not omniscent. Ok check this out....Doom is not ominpotent so if hes going to manages to defeat a being thats omnipotent whats he going to have to do? Thats right, he had to come up with a plan to deafeat him. If it was a matter of power or combat skill Thor or Magneto could have taken The Beyonders power they couldn't because they are not smart enough. I thought that was obvious.
Originally posted by Master CrimzonCap is faster than Batman.
Oh, PLEASE. Do you think Cap >>>>>> Batman in speed? Do you? Cap may be enhanced, but he's still only a highly enhanced human; Batman is absolute, absolute, absolute peak, as well, and the Joker displayed speed sufficient to knock Batman on his ass and surprise him with his attacks.
I don't think the Joker will take a majority, but he has a chance.
He can compete physically thanks to crazy speed and strength, and also has the advantage of sadism and pure unpredictability well above Frank's own
he can certainly bloody the Punisher up. Beat him more than 5/10 times? Nope. But he can hold his own without being owned like a little girl. If Batman can't do it, Frank sure as hell can't do it either.
RIGHT. Now, to own it with two quotes coming from the same on-shot comic: "Damn it. He's fast and I'm distracted."- Batman acknolwedging the Joker's speed right after the Joker releases himself from a direct deathgrip by Batman using no weapons.
However, perhaps more meaningful is this: "Keep forgetting how fast he is..."- These are Batman's thoughts as the Joker, without the element of surprise and after a conversation, charges him and hits him with a knee to the chin. Speed feat, proving that his speed- which is sufficient to hit Batman hard- is above Frank's own.
You obviously haven't read enough Joker.
Incorrect; the Joker had killed similar amounts of people all at once. Granted, it was with gas, prep, and guns, but it's still impressive.
Aside from that, the Joker's speed is on par with Batman's own, and his strength is enhanced to somewhat superhuman levels- Frank isn't known to be able to generate strength like that. He's no Batman.
Aside from that, when bloodlusted- such as in the great comic Mad Love- the Joker has attacked Batman and more than held his own.
In fact, he almost got Batman there. Yeah, the Joker may run away from Batman when he has nothing to gain by owning him (the Joker likes to play with Batman, not kill him), but when bloodlusted, the Joker will be more than happy to engage Batman in physical combat.
Did I mention that he also defeated Catwoman in physical combat once?
Yeah, Daredevil may have reflexes superior to Batman's, but Batman is better conditioned and a better martial artist- I, myself, will not be surprised if Batman will defeat Daredevil if they fight.
Sorry, you just described the Joker with your analysis- crazy and resourceful, an an excellent brawler who will cheat if he has to. Want an example? In The Killing Joke, the Joker uses Batman's cowl against him and uses a wooden block nearby to hit Batman. Not cheating? Yeah, the Joker is a cheater and a resourceful fighter- he's also more intelligent and unpredictable than Frank.
has joker ever bitten off a chunk of Batman's face? no.
has he bitten off someone's nose or ear? no.
punched someone so hard in the mouth it went down his throat and then opened his hand? no.
put someone in the mincemeat machine? no.
tossed someone off the empire state building? no.
planted C4's in a building and blew it up WHILE INSIDE? no.
hack someone to death with a crowbar? well, okay, so he's done that.
killed 20,000 people in one night? no.
THAT is unpredictable and sadistic.
Well, the Joker also commonly uses knives while fighting; and his electrical joy buzzer gives him an immediate edge in H2H combat, considering that even a slight tap on one of Punisher's exposed areas will be lethal; the Joker, being at the very least as fast as Frank, can do it.
The Joker = possibly the most sadistic and murderous supervillain in comic book history. Why? He doesn't do things for money or for power. He kills people for fun, as he says to Luthor (in another great Joker moment) while fighting him in Salvation Run.
Right. And the Joker 'survived' toe-to-toe fights with Batman, who is superior to anyone Punisher ever physically fought and lived
can Joker soak damage like Frank? no. hell no.
defeating Catwoman in physical combat are some of Joker's feats.
Yeah, who is more vicious? The insane, psychopathic killer clown who kills people randomly because it's fun, or the revenge-driven vigilante?
If the Joker is sitting somewhere and Frank is a mile away, sniping him down while the Joker has no knowledge of Frank's existence. That's hardly the case. By the way, would you like me to post scans of some of the Joker's physical feats? I can, you know.
~Sado
Originally posted by Master CrimzonDodges a bullet and throws his shield after it's been fired at point-blank range:
Prove it.
Leaps and deflects bullets with his shield after they've been fired across a room:
Throws his shield in mid leap and ricochets it and vaults across a room, catching up to it at the end of it's flight path:
Throws his shield, which ricochets a few times and manages to shoulder flip Flag Smasher into it's flight path:
Kicks the crap outta some several thugs who have formed a semi-circle defensive formation while outrunning a gunman's sights:
Your turn. Prove Batman's faster than that.
Originally posted by Sado22Frank does not have the highest killrate in Marvel not even close. he does not even have the highest killrate of Marvel earth.
agreed.don't know if he's more unpredictable than frankie. its arguable.
as for sadism and ruthlessness...well, Frank STILL has the highest kill rate. in one day, he killed 20,000 people by dropping a nuke on them (notice that his kill rate is higher BARRING the nuke. with it, he'd just make everyone cry). did joker kill that many in one day? no. has he even dropped a nuke successfully? no.agreed, for the sake of argument.
he said the same about Catwoman once. was this early in his career or later? nwayz, granted, joker has speed. but whether its more or less than what frank has dealt with his highly unlikely. beating Bullseye in h2h and crippling him tells us a lot. and we're talking about Bullseye who can surprise the hell out of people like DareDevil.
read all the major arcs of batman. he's never done something impressive. in fact, he's always disappointed me with his predictability.
gas, prep and guns<<<<<<<<<<<<<no gas, no prep and no gun. no hard feelings, but you failed badly there.
Can joker pick up and hold a full grown man by one hand over a building? no. can he toss around same full grown man? no. punch through doors and walls? no.
i've never seen joker do anything phsyically impressive.alright, so bloodlusted joker has a chance. but only against regular frank.
'blood lusted frank' not only held his own but killed Barracuda, The Russian, killed 100 armed vietcong soldiers while suffering from several gunshots and phsyical and mental trauma. in fact, 'serious frank' stalemated DareDevil and held his own against Tombstone (and now pay attention) in a toe-to-toe fight. the amount of power tombstone packs was something even DareDevil was afraid of. Is joker sort-of-meta like Tombstone? no.
fact of the matter is, even if joker goes bloodlusted, he still wouldn't shitstomp frank....and frank goes bloodlusted himself, god save joker.like what? once. doesn't count. especially since Joker can't hit harder than tombstone. neither can bats for that matter.
no, not really. so did he? and was it canon?
can catwoman beat DareDevil, Bullseye, Tombstone? no. can she even stand a chance in a straight up fight? barely. Can she beat them? no.
Frank did. more than once.
oh and can catwoman hold her own agianst Wolverine in a straight up fight? no.
heck, in their first encounter, Punisher had CAPTAIN AMERICA at his mercy.probably. i'd say DD and Bats is 50/50.
but this is besides the point.yes, i've read "the killing joke" just as i've read all the important arcs of "The Overly Stale Batman". not only was he runnign away scared but barely managed to do any damage to Bats. using his cowl against him, was resourceful, but nothing compared to Frank. Frank held his own against Wolverine in a straight up fight by using the envirnoment against him. he surprised DD and crippled him in a straight fight TWICE because of his resroucefulness and presence of mind and killed The Russian again because of his resourcefulness. heck, he used a hot pizza against The Russian and won 😂
you seriously need to read up "Weclome back, Frank".has joker ever bitten off a chunk of Batman's face? no.
has he bitten off someone's nose or ear? no.
punched someone so hard in the mouth it went down his throat and then opened his hand? no.
put someone in the mincemeat machine? no.
tossed someone off the empire state building? no.
planted C4's in a building and blew it up WHILE INSIDE? no.
hack someone to death with a crowbar? well, okay, so he's done that.
killed 20,000 people in one night? no.THAT is unpredictable and sadistic.
Frank's outfit is the rubber variety. it won't work.
do you really have something to say besides quoting DC, who possibly make the most onedimensional, shallow characters in comicbook history?
arguable at best.
-DareDevil and Bats is 50/50 and he isn't more conditioned than Matt since Matt is also peak human.
-Bullseye and Bats would go to Bats but not in an easy fight, and he'd probably never pwn him the way Frank did.
-Tombstone- bats isn't beating him toe-to-toe for sure, since neither can DD.
-Wolverine- as much as i hate this short, hairy piece of shit, Batman would go down hard in a fight against him. Frank held his own against him for a whole length of an issue.can Joker soak damage like Frank? no. hell no.
Frank was about to beat Black Widow hadn't it been for interruptions.
the insane, psycho clown whose kill number is no where close to Frank's. and frank doesn't do it for "revenge". it began as revenge but its pure hatred.
sure, go ahead.
~Sado
