The Joker Vs. The Punisher

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Alright. So the Joker can use his uber mind-f*cking powers to mess with Frank's head and THEN kill him, right? Considering that the Joker has pissed off even Batman in the past, I'm sure he could do the same to Castle; you can't think clearly while you're being mind-raped.

People have tried messing with his mind in the past all it did was make him more focused.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

There's no proof the Joker would do that if he's in immediate danger, too. To my knowledge, he's never messed with someone who is going to kill him.

Maybe not, doesn't matter since hes outsmarted people smarter than Joker.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

1. Joker's traps =/= other people's traps, even if they look the same.

Thats just complete and utter bias. The trap was just a spikes covered by a floor board. Theres nothing complicated about that so no hes traps are not always better than others.

Also Jokers traps are not better than Dr Dooms.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

2. I believe Joker Venom gets through the skin as well. Too bad for Frankie.

Proof?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Why should he do it here?

Hey you said Joker might shoot Pun not me.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Dr. Doom is more scientifically intelligent than the Joker; however, the Joker who tricked an omnipotent being into giving him supreme power over the universe (Emperor Joker),

First you need to prove how intelligent Mxy is. Mxy doesn't come across as being that intelligent just ominpotent. Ominpotenet does not mean you are super intelligent. What Dr Doom did was more impressive he actually defeated an omnipotent that was activly trying to beat him, instead of a being that actually made himself vulnerable.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

successfully caused chaos and actually Joker-ized people like Doomsday, foiled an assassination (ASSASSINATION, as in killing) attempt by Deathstroke and only let him live because the plot gods demanded so, and... need I go on?

and that proves that Joker is smarter than Doom how? Doom has been a universal threat at least twice. His achievements outweigh Jokers.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

The Joker's way of thinking is more out-of-the-box and unpredictable than anyone Punisher's ever fought.

No they are not, you are exaggerating. Hidding spikes under a floorboard is not unpredictable. Gassing people with poison gas is not unpredicatble. Traps that fire guns are not unpredictable. Beating a loved one to death is not unpredicatble. Hell Punisher has gone up against people more twisted than Joker.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Traps that fooled Batman, the 'world's greatest detective', who, by feats, is a lot smarter than Castle? Nope.

Joker has fooled Batman with traps before, so I don't see how is that inconsistent. Batman knows more than Punisher does but I don't think he is neccesarily 'smarter'.

Punisher has shown to better at prep than Captain America and I don't even think Batman is smarter than Cap he just knows more stuff.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

By the way, if you would like to use The Killing Joke as evidence, you may want to note that in the final fight, not only did the Joker get a solid hit on Batman (who is a far better H2H combatant than the Punisher), he successfully drew a gun on him. Luck- the gun being of the 'silly' variety- saved Batman from a gunshot wound. A nasty gunshot wound.

Pun has gone up against people tougher than Batman Joker isn't killing him.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Who made the trap? Even if the trap looks the same, it's not necessarily the same one.

The trap was made by a guy who got past KP's security. Of course the trap was not exactly the same but since they were similar we could argue that Punisher would have detected Jokers trap. Jokers trap was not that much different, the main difference is that this guys trap was outside.

Hell if you read the comic Pun simply knew the trap was there almost like a sixth sense he said something along the lines that everything seemed too 'safe'. The fact it was outside was neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Alright. Now, look at my argument, read, and elaborate on your opinion. In close-ranged, the Joker certainly has a shot.

Yeah 1/10 I guess.

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
First off, that's not why you're going to "ignore him".

Yes it is actually thats why im going to respond to the other guys post and not his. The other guy strongly disagrees with me but we can at least keep it civil.

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush

It's because he pretty much has you beat in pretty much every sense of the word. Smurph insults people. It's what most [i]good[i] kmc debaters do. You really can't counter his post at this point, it's why you're post is so dramatically shorter. And yes, he's being civil, his post isn't flaming you like mine is. I'm NOT being civil 😐

No he doesn't I could respond to his posts but ive been in other arguments where he contradicts himself and insults. Im not saying im perfect but he thinks he is. Im not going to debate and waste my time with some guy who is incapable of just looking at arguments from his point of view.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph
Which is all fine and dandy. He survives other assassination attempts due to a need for the story to go on and because it's a much more predictabble method.

Sounds like you're making excuses to me. I don't like it didn't happen.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph

Both enemies you mentioned are scientists, mathematical, and precise about their ways.

Joker is none of the above.

Joker's gotten through to Lex Luthor as president before.

Twice, to my knowledge.

Punisher is nothing compared to that.

Pun has broke in into Dooms Castle and escaped. Doom > Lex. Jokers not that unpredicatable you are exaggerating alot of his methods are not that different from other villiains.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
People have tried messing with his mind in the past all it did was make him more focused.

Who? Give me an example of a more proficient mind-f*cker than the Joker who couldn't succeed in messing with Frank's head.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Maybe not, doesn't matter since hes outsmarted people smarter than Joker.

Yeah? When they were personally out in a battle to the death? PROVE IT.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats just complete and utter bias. The trap was just a spikes covered by a floor board. Theres nothing complicated about that so no hes traps are not always better than others.

False; the trap can be more cleverly or differently conceived than anyone Punisher's ever faced. Now, what trap did HE avoid?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Also Jokers traps are not better than Dr Dooms.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Proof?

For instance, in The Killing Joke, the Joker evidently dipped a needle with some Joker Venom and used it to kill the owner of the amusement park; evidently, even if is directly absorbed through the bloodstream, it can be lethal.

That means that even if the Punisher is grazed by any of the Joker's spikes, it can be potentially lethal.

Also, although I can't think of an example at the moment, I'm fairly sure it was absorbed through the pores sometimes.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hey you said Joker might shoot Pun not me.

I did; when Punisher is struggling with the Joker's traps, the Joker shoots him with a machine gun. Now, how is the Punisher gonna come out of that?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
First you need to prove how intelligent Mxy is. Mxy doesn't come across as being that intelligent just ominpotent. Ominpotenet does not mean you are super intelligent. What Dr Doom did was more impressive he actually defeated an omnipotent that was activly trying to beat him, instead of a being that actually made himself vulnerable.

Well, either Mxy is EXTREMELY stupid or the Joker is EXTREMELY smart; well, mainly because it's not demonstrated percisely what the Joker says to Mxy, but evidently he needs to be smart in order to trick him in such a fashion.

Oh, and Dr. Doom is an extremely potent combatant- the Joker is also a highly effective killer, but he's a street-leveller. Doom isn't. Punisher IS.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and that proves that Joker is smarter than Doom how? Doom has been a universal threat at least twice. His achievements outweigh Jokers.

The Joker was a universal threat once, too, and also happened to devastate the world simply because he wanted to; his toxins are quite complex, displaying that not only is he a master planner and thinker, he also has excellent knowledge of chemistry (to my knowledge, no single person ever replicated that Venom).

How do Doom's 'street-level' feats- which he evidently used to get Punisher- compare to the Joker's? The Joker does everything with smarts and insanity, not with cosmic power.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No they are not, you are exaggerating. Hidding spikes under a floorboard is not unpredictable. Gassing people with poison gas is not unpredicatble. Traps that fire guns are not unpredictable. Beating a loved one to death is not unpredicatble. Hell Punisher has gone up against people more twisted than Joker.

Like who? I cannot think of a more violent and insane killer than the Joker in Marvel. Well, maybe except for Carnage, but Carnage doesn't compare to the Joker's intelligence.

He fooled Batman- the 'world's greatest detective', who is a far superior logician and detective than Frank- on multiple times, thanks to his apparent randomness and insanity (see The Man Who Laughs).

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Joker has fooled Batman with traps before, so I don't see how is that inconsistent. Batman knows more than Punisher does but I don't think he is neccesarily 'smarter'.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Knowing more doesn't make you the world's greatest detective- Batman is a certified genius and combat expert (ninja training versus advanced army training), more so than Frank. By far.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher has shown to better at prep than Captain America and I don't even think Batman is smarter than Cap he just knows more stuff.

Really, now that's Marvel bias. You actually think that Batman is not smarter than Captain America? Really...?

No, Batman >>> Punisher in terms of intelligence.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Pun has gone up against people tougher than Batman Joker isn't killing him.

In direct combat? In a prep war?

I don't think so.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The trap was made by a guy who got past KP's security. Of course the trap was not exactly the same but since they were similar we could argue that Punisher would have detected Jokers trap. Jokers trap was not that much different, the main difference is that this guys trap was outside.

'inside' limits the distance and gives you more options to disguise the trap.

By the way, who designed KP's security system? Is it anyone on par with the Joker, in any shape or form?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hell if you read the comic Pun simply knew the trap was there almost like a sixth sense he said something along the lines that everything seemed too 'safe'. The fact it was outside was neither here nor there.

Alright. Now prove that the trap was as well-made as the Joker's, whose traps regularly fool Batman- a 'super-genius'- who is far superior to the Punisher in reasoning and intelligence.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah 1/10 I guess.

*cough*postanargument*cough*

If its close quarters, with no weapns Punisher kills him-FACT!

Well, that's a possibility- if they fight, however, the Joker has the advantage of possessing speed at the very, very least on par with the Punisher's (speeds that shocked Batman, a peak-human level combatant), and his insanity- according to DC's Who's Who- grants him degrees of physical strength that are enhanced to somewhat superhuman degrees thanks to the adrenaline; with these things, he can actually compare with the Punisher on a physical level.

In addition, the Joker fights with an extreme level of unpredictability- enough to fool and bloody up Cassandra Cain, a superb martial artist- giving him that advantage over Frank.

He also happens to have the acid-squirting flower (very dangerous in close-quarters), his knives, and perhaps most importantly of all, the electrical joy buzzer- it can give Frank a lethal electrical shock. That, or he can use the 'needle dipped in liquid Joker Venom' strategy and put a smile on Frank's face.

Joker doesn't stand a chance in long-ranged combat, but really, if it's close-quarters, it's an entirely different matter.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, that's a possibility- if they fight, however, the Joker has the advantage of possessing speed at the very, very least on par with the Punisher's (speeds that shocked Batman, a peak-human level combatant), and his insanity- according to DC's Who's Who- grants him degrees of physical strength that are enhanced to somewhat superhuman degrees thanks to the adrenaline; with these things, he can actually compare with the Punisher on a physical level.

In addition, the Joker fights with an extreme level of unpredictability- enough to fool and bloody up Cassandra Cain, a superb martial artist- giving him that advantage over Frank.

He also happens to have the acid-squirting flower (very dangerous in close-quarters), his knives, and perhaps most importantly of all, the electrical joy buzzer- it can give Frank a lethal electrical shock. That, or he can use the 'needle dipped in liquid Joker Venom' strategy and put a smile on Frank's face.

Joker doesn't stand a chance in long-ranged combat, but really, if it's close-quarters, it's an entirely different matter.

I did say 'no weapons' and that includes acid spurting flowers and high voltage joy buzzers. H2H he would destroy Joker. Joker may have 'insane unpredictability' at his disposal but that is no match for what the Punisher brings to the table. Frank is in peak condition, highly skilled (though not on the same level as say Cap America or Batman)in martial arts-enough for him to take on gangs of men, unarmed, and kick the crap out of them, without sustaining injuries. He is also very durable for someone who isn't enhanced, and is utterly ruthless and driven

Who? Give me an example of a more proficient mind-f*cker than the Joker who couldn't succeed in messing with Frank's head.

despite how much i like him, joker's only "evil" from DC standards. and for the record, while Frank only lost it when the above happened and even then plundered his way through most of the gangs in NY but still fell for the traps cuz he wasn't himself. but its understandable. compare that to how Batman was about to kill joker was hurting Catwoman in Hush. from the looks of it, Frank has better resistance to mindf--king than Bats.

Jokers not that unpredicatable you are exaggerating alot of his methods are not that different from other villiains.

~Sado

Originally posted by BUSTER1
I did say 'no weapons' and that includes acid spurting flowers and high voltage joy buzzers. H2H he would destroy Joker. Joker may have 'insane unpredictability' at his disposal but that is no match for what the Punisher brings to the table. Frank is in peak condition, highly skilled (though not on the same level as say Cap America or Batman)in martial arts-enough for him to take on gangs of men, unarmed, and kick the crap out of them, without sustaining injuries. He is also very durable for someone who isn't enhanced, and is utterly ruthless and driven

Well, that's tougher. However, Joker is regularly able to land a few hits on Batman (and, as I've noted, also stuns Batman with his speed) while they fight- in addition, on occasions, the Joker fully held his own against Batman and temporarily even gained the advantage. In pure, unarmed combat. The Joker is fast, strong, and agile, thanks to the adrenaline his insanity grants him, enabling him to stand up to seemingly superior fighters. Like Cassandra Cain, for once. Would you call her inferior or superior to Frank?

And the Joker is insanely durable, too.

Who? Give me an example of a more proficient mind-f*cker than the Joker who couldn't succeed in messing with Frank's head.

despite how much i like him, joker's only "evil" from DC standards. and for the record, while Frank only lost it when the above happened and even then plundered his way through most of the gangs in NY but still fell for the traps cuz he wasn't himself. but its understandable. compare that to how Batman was about to kill joker was hurting Catwoman in Hush. from the looks of it, Frank has better resistance to mindf--king than Bats.

Jokers not that unpredicatable you are exaggerating alot of his methods are not that different from other villiains.

Well, that's a possibility- if they fight, however, the Joker has the advantage of possessing speed at the very, very least on par with the Punisher's (speeds that shocked Batman, a peak-human level combatant)

and his insanity

according to DC's Who's Who- grants him degrees of physical strength that are enhanced to somewhat superhuman degrees thanks to the adrenaline; with these things, he can actually compare with the Punisher on a physical level.

In addition, the Joker fights with an extreme level of unpredictability- enough to fool and bloody up Cassandra Cain, a superb martial artist- giving him that advantage over Frank.

He also happens to have the acid-squirting flower (very dangerous in close-quarters)

his knives

and perhaps most importantly of all, the electrical joy buzzer- it can give Frank a lethal electrical shock.

That, or he can use the 'needle dipped in liquid Joker Venom' strategy and put a smile on Frank's face.

Joker doesn't stand a chance in long-ranged combat, but really, if it's close-quarters, it's an entirely different matter.

Frank kills Joker 9/10.

If its close quarters, with no weapns Punisher kills him-FACT!

~Sado

Well, that's tougher. However, Joker is regularly able to land a few hits on Batman (and, as I've noted, also stuns Batman with his speed) while they fight- in addition, on occasions, the Joker fully held his own against Batman and temporarily even gained the advantage. In pure, unarmed combat. The Joker is fast, strong, and agile, thanks to the adrenaline his insanity grants him, enabling him to stand up to seemingly superior fighters. Like Cassandra Cain, for once. Would you call her inferior or superior to Frank?

And the Joker is insanely durable, too.

Frank>>Joker

~Sado

Joker, me thinks.

In a 1v1 situation Frank handles Joker. He completely smashes him.

If they both get prep it's 50/50. Joker is obviously more creative, but Frank (unlike Batman of course) is ruthless. He gets his chance and Joker is dead.

So overall I think Frank would be the more likely to come out on top. Frank's recurring villains tend to get severely maimed or screwed up big time, as psychotic as Joker is, the Punisher is just too remorseless for a guy like Joker to play off of him as successfully as he does Batman.

Originally posted by Sado22
more often than not, heck, MOST of the time, all i ever see joker do when its all said and done is wet himself and run like a little sissy. the writers have almost always portrayed him as more of a sissy than a fighter.
as for Cassandra Cain, its not out of question that frank CAN beat her. its not something that's impossible, considering that we're talking about a guy who stalemated DareDevil, humiliated him another time and crippled Bullseye. all because of his improvisational fighting style and wild, furious rage. can't mess with that. on top of that, Frank's durability is insane. nuff said.

not even half as much as frank's. not by a longshot.
its correct that Joker MAY beat Frank, but the odds of that are just too small, especially since he's outdone in almost every thing from surprises, to damage soak, to skill, to competition level.

Frank>>Joker

~Sado

Bullshit. Frank would never beat Cassie in H2H. She'd read his moves and wipe the floor with him. She's deciphered an entire fighting style from a single move. She's also beaten Lady Shiva.

Outdone? Frank is the one who's outdone. Joker's madness has freaked out Spectre and driven gods insane. No one on Marvel earth, or hell, even marvel cosmics has that level of madness. Frank has never faced someone like Joker.

Hush? Really? 😬 Joker was written like shit in Hush. Loeb had no clue how to use him.

And didn't Cresh&I smoke you&Alf the last time this thread came up?

🙄 Get out, go read some comics, or better yet, stay away from comics vs. You won't be missed.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, that's tougher. However, Joker is regularly able to land a few hits on Batman (and, as I've noted, also stuns Batman with his speed) while they fight- in addition, on occasions, the Joker fully held his own against Batman and temporarily even gained the advantage. In pure, unarmed combat. The Joker is fast, strong, and agile, thanks to the adrenaline his insanity grants him, enabling him to stand up to seemingly superior fighters. Like Cassandra Cain, for once. Would you call her inferior or superior to Frank?

And the Joker is insanely durable, too.

BTW Cassandra Cain is WAY superior than Frank in H2H combat.
Frank won't land a single blow. I don't think he'd even be able to touch Cass.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
And didn't Cresh&I smoke you&Alf the last time this thread came up?

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Did Joker really bloodied Cassandra Cain?
Now that is insane!
Can you tell me what issue(s)? Gotta read 'em.

BTW Cassandra Cain is WAY superior than Frank in H2H combat.
Frank won't land a single blow. I don't think he'd even be able to touch Cass.

While I agree that it's crazy, don't read too much into it. Cassie's move-reading ability actually screwed her over in that fight. Because Joker's moves are impossible to read. As Batman said: "His body language is gibberish." Now, that does give Joker an edge, but not so much that he'd take Frank H2H for a majority, IMO.

There's no prep assigned for no one in the first post. So, I give it to Frank.

The OP's post didn't specify, and the way it's phrased is unclear.

I'm holding to the interpretation of Joker becoming a Punisher villain, rather than a straight fight,

Originally posted by Sado22
how about taking out his family's remains and peeing all over them on national TV? call me up when joker doesn't something as bad as that.

-Shoots Barbara Gordon in the spine and paralyzes her at a whim.
-Constantly slaughters his own henchmen and even other supervillains (Psimon in Salvation Run, for instance)
-Gassed a room full of people just to practice the effectiveness of his gas
-Shot Sarah Essen Gordon and proceeded to taunt her husband about it.
-Beat the sh*t out of Jason Todd with a crowbar and blew him up.
-Scared Gotham to hell multiple times
-Drove a cop insane in the No Man's Land arc, causing him to kill his own friends (disguised in makeup and green hair) and prooceed to be killed himself.
-Disfigured and tortured Alexander Luthor before killing said person.

Now then, that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the Joker.

... he's not known as the greatest comic book villain of all time for nothing.

Originally posted by Sado22
despite how much i like him, joker's only "evil" from DC standards. and for the record, while Frank only lost it when the above happened and even then plundered his way through most of the gangs in NY but still fell for the traps cuz he wasn't himself. but its understandable. compare that to how Batman was about to kill joker was hurting Catwoman in Hush. from the looks of it, Frank has better resistance to mindf--king than Bats.

And now then, who mind-f*cked Frank who is on par with the Joker?

The Joker is evil. Insanely evil. Apparently you've only read his more campy stories. If so, you should know that the Joker- in his proper form- is a sadistic psychopath. A pure, insane, murderous, demented, freak.

Originally posted by Sado22
joker not unpredictable. i practically have to stop myself from screaming out whats he going to do next. pssst.....he'll escape, free thugs from Arkham and hide from batman in "top secret" areas which happen to be amusment parks with his face all over it.

RIGHT. He was outright said to be unpredictable- his plans 'make sense to him alone', giving him an edge over other people who cannot understand his plans, confused Batman multiple times with his schemes, oh, and he didn't join the Society because the "Joker's too wild". Too wild and unpredictable. You can never know what he's going to do next.

Frank isn't smart enough to keep up with the Joker.

Edit: I'll provide an image of the Joker owning Cassie and move on to the rest of your points later.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
-Shoots Barbara Gordon in the spine and paralyzes her at a whim.
-Constantly slaughters his own henchmen and even other supervillains (Psimon in Salvation Run, for instance)
-Gassed a room full of people just to practice the effectiveness of his gas
-Shot Sarah Essen Gordon and proceeded to taunt her husband about it.
-Beat the sh*t out of Jason Todd with a crowbar and blew him up.
-Scared Gotham to hell multiple times
-Drove a cop insane in the No Man's Land arc, causing him to kill his own friends (disguised in makeup and green hair) and prooceed to be killed himself.
-Disfigured and tortured Alexander Luthor before killing said person.

-Jokerized all of Metropolis and Lex Luthor who was the Pres. of USA
-Martian Manhunter, top tier DC telepath, could not regain Joker's sanity
-Fooled Myx and was able to fully utilized his powers
-Joker literally laughed his head off at his own fears when Raven tried to mindrape him. fear