Originally posted by Metalmanx
🤨So, even with no proof claiming that Cap is NOT insanely skilled, Batman is just automatically vastly superior to Cap?
Yea. Nice one. 🙄
Maybe not 'vastly' more skilled, but please. When you have far more proof substantiating Batman's position as 'uber martial arts expert' in comparison to Steve Rogers, he is logically more skilled.
Edit: Silent Master, Captain America's skill had not be elaborated to the same extent as Batman's. He's clearly not his technical equal- if you think he is, prove it. I've given more than enough proof.
Originally posted by Silent Masteri'm saying you show me a single canon issue that says captain america has mastered all forms of martial arts.it doesn't exist,because he hasn't.when he first started it was nothing but american kickboxing and jijitsu i think.then he added a few more along the way(some not all human forms),but he never mastered everyone on earth.
I see, so you're saying that you're right about Cap and both the comics and the handbooks are wrong.
sorry for my irrelevent post,carry on.
Originally posted by namorsubby
i'm saying you show me a single canon issue that says captain america has mastered [b]all forms of martial arts.it doesn't exist,because he hasn't.when he first started it was nothing but american kickboxing and jijitsu i think.then he added a few more along the way(some not all human forms),but he never mastered everyone on earth.sorry for my irrelevent post,carry on. [/B]
I've already shown you a scan from a canon issue where it was stated he was adept at all forms.
Originally posted by Silent Master
I've already shown you a scan from a canon issue where it was stated he was adept at all forms.
Stated by himself, to someone else, with potential falliblity, hyperbole, etc, etc, etc.
Show me a source that truly proves him to be adept at hundreds of forms, like Batman is.
😆 ok,when did he acquire knowledge of these forms? he just went from kicking/jijitsu to knowing everything without training? captain america is supposed to be a master h2h combatant. so marvel just goes off and says he knows all forms.where as batman has an established history of him going all over the world, training to achieve that goal.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Seeing as you haven't proven that Batman is a master of 127 styles, I already have.BTW, that CD from Batgirl, it was said to have the basics of 127 styles. IOW, that doesn't prove he's mastered the styles.
CD he gave to her. Who do you think recorded it? Who the hell would have knowledge of such a broad extent of martial arts skills?
Oh, and Batman- in a narration, with no motive for exagerration or lying- stated himself to have mastered every single form of martial arts. His offical DC profile, meanwhile, claims that he mastered virtually every form of combat.
Captain America doesn't have that.
1) The cd was said to have the basics of 127 styles, you don't have to be a master in order to show someone the basics, therefore it doesn't prove Batman is a master of 127 styles.
2) Handbooks list Cap as a 7 in fighting skill and Marvel defines 7 as being a master of "all styles".
3) I have a Cap stating he is adept at all forms, he also has no reason to lie. you might have a point about "narration" if the person doing it was an actual narrator and not the character himself.
* let's go back to business... 🙂
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Batman is faster and has better reflexes than Cyke. Therefore, it's logical that he would move faster than him, and get the first hit.
* faster and better reflexes are not factors in quick draw... Cyke's visor is THOUGHT-CONTROLLED & NEURAL-ACTIVATED, which means the moment Cyke thinks, the visor automatically opens... my argument - that Cyke would blast Bats even before Bats drawing any gadget - still stands...
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah. But what would prevent him from getting a one-hit KO on Cykes in H2H? Cykes isn't as fast, strong, resourceful, or skilled.
* the H2H scenario is only a "what if" Bats managed to close the distance between them... which has very low percentage...
* what would prevent Cyke? Cyke is an aikido & judo expert, plus if Bats is close, he would be a bigger target for a close range/point blank optic blast...
* Cyke wins over Bats 7-8/10... the 2-3/10 instances Bats would manage to strike a one-hit KO...
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
He is. Don't even try to argue this.
* might be, if the battle is with prep... but Cyke is a master strategist & tactician, and if the battle is without prep, Cyke takes this 10/10 with considerable distance...
Originally posted by Metalmanx
5. Spider-Man
Cyke 2-3/10.
* i rated Cyke 7-8/10... because with enough distance between them, Cyke has a very high chance of tagging Spidey... Cyke has managed to tag speedsters (Northstar & Quicksilver) and superhumanly agile characters (Wolverine & Nightcrawler), Spidey is exceptional in agility department but i still think that thought-controlled visor, spatial awareness, considerable distance, Cyke's accuracy and the speed of the optic blasts are great factors for Cyke to win 7-8/10...
Originally posted by Metalmanx
6. Clayface
Cyke 5/10. Tie.
* uhm, how did this became a tie? according to the stipulations, Cyke is prohibited to use his mega blasts... i still think Clayface wins 10/10... because i can't think of a way how Cyke can defeat him... 🙂
Originally posted by Mindset
Yes, because Cap is prone to lying and boasting about skills he doesn't have. 😐
It could very well be that he isn't even aware of all martial arts in existence.
Still, he referred to himself as an 'adept'. Batman is a master of 'virtually every combat form'; yeah, master > adept.
Originally posted by peejayd
* faster and better reflexes are not factors in quick draw... Cyke's visor is THOUGHT-CONTROLLED & NEURAL-ACTIVATED, which means the moment Cyke thinks, the visor automatically opens... my argument - that Cyke would blast Bats even before Bats drawing any gadget - still stands..
Batman is one fast son of a *****. If they start a considerable distance away, don't you think he could... ehh... dodge, and flash bomb Cyclops?
Originally posted by peejayd
* the H2H scenario is only a "what if" Bats managed to close the distance between them... which has very low percentage...* what would prevent Cyke? Cyke is an aikido & judo expert, plus if Bats is close, he would be a bigger target for a close range/point blank optic blast...
Batman once 'lol'd at the skills of an uber martial arts expert; Cyclops may be good at Aikido and Judo, but he isn't even close to a master of all fighting forms in existence. Batman is also in better shape.
Originally posted by peejayd
* Cyke wins over Bats 7-8/10... the 2-3/10 instances Bats would manage to strike a one-hit KO...
Seems reasonable. I disagree, but that's not very unreasonable.
Originally posted by peejayd
* might be, if the battle is with prep... but Cyke is a master strategist & tactician, and if the battle is without prep, Cyke takes this 10/10 with considerable distance...
It doesn't matter whether the battle is with prep; using resourcefulness, cheating, and utilization of the environment, The Joker's intelligence comes into play in a non-prop fight.
Still, you are right about the fact that Cyclops is more than likely to take this fight in long range. Like Batman, the Joker is faster than Cyclops, but unlike Batman, he doesn't have incredible useful gadgets (unless he frags Cykes with a submachine?) for long-ranged assaults. 8 or 9/10 seems plausible.
You agree with me that the Joker would take it in close ranged combat, right?
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Batman is one fast son of a *****. If they start a considerable distance away, don't you think he could... ehh... dodge, and flash bomb Cyclops?Batman once 'lol'd at the skills of an uber martial arts expert; Cyclops may be good at Aikido and Judo, but he isn't even close to a master of all fighting forms in existence. Batman is also in better shape.
Seems reasonable. I disagree, but that's not very unreasonable.
It doesn't matter whether the battle is with prep; using resourcefulness, cheating, and utilization of the environment, The Joker's intelligence comes into play in a non-prop fight.
Still, you are right about the fact that Cyclops is more than likely to take this fight in long range. Like Batman, the Joker is faster than Cyclops, but unlike Batman, he doesn't have incredible useful gadgets (unless he frags Cykes with a submachine?) for long-ranged assaults. 8 or 9/10 seems plausible.
You agree with me that the Joker would take it in close ranged combat, right?
🤨 The fuh?
Joker faster than Cyclops? Did I miss something over at DC Comics? When did Joker gain these peak human reflexes and speed, as well as superior martial arts ability? Whether you like it or not, Cyke has been shown, since nearly his creation, to be a highly-accomplished martial artist. Is he on Batman level? No, of course not. But he's easily low 2nd-tier/high 3rd-tier.
Also his reflexes, while not on the league of say Cap or Daredevil, are still EASILY up there. Enough to tag Quicksilver, Northstar, and the like. Then you add in his near-perfect aim and his seemingly-superhuman grasp of spatial awareness and trigonometry?
The MOMENT the light turns green/ref says go/the match starts, Joker has either a huge hole in his torso or no longer has a head. The same goes for Batman. The distance from his opponents doesn't matter at all. It's still a light-speed projectile fired at the rate of the speed of thought. Not even Batman could hope to dodge that.
Oh, and Peejayd, my reasoning for the 2-3/10 against Spidey is because, along with his vastly superhuman speed and reflexes, Spidey's also got something that no one else here has: a spider-sense. That will keep him safely ahead of Cyke's blasts until he can manuever close enough to take Cyke out. But Cyke could still get in a lucky shot, most likely to the environment more than Spidey himself.
And against Clayface, my reasoning was that Cyke wouldn't be able to put him down permanently, but he also wouldn't allow Clayface to get near him. Cyke would most likely be able to blast away any incoming attack from CF, but not actually do him any harm. But hey, that's just me. Maybe I'm missing something on Clayface.
So, in short: Cyke clears most of this list.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Batman is one fast son of a *****. If they start a considerable distance away, don't you think he could... ehh... dodge, and flash bomb Cyclops?
* i'm not taking away anything from Batman, as they say, he's a pinnacle of human perfection... the dodging and flash bombing thingy, it could happen... however, if there's considerable amount of distance, my money is on Cyke... consider these factors:
>> thought-controlled/neural-activated visor - Cyke will just look, think, blast... takes less than a second...
>> accuracy/speed - Cyke was able to tag speedsters and super-agile characters... heck, he was able to blast an opponent's leg while doing a cartwheel... he was also able to disarm several soldiers in one blast...
>> spatial awareness - he can ricochet his blasts in near-impossible trigonometric/geomtric angles of his liking...
>> speed of the blast - it may or may not travel as fast as the speed of light, but you get the picture...
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Batman once 'lol'd at the skills of an uber martial arts expert; Cyclops may be good at Aikido and Judo, but he isn't even close to a master of all fighting forms in existence. Batman is also in better shape.
* i know... Batman, without a shadow of a doubt, is better than Cyke in H2H department... my point is, Cyke who is an expert in Aikido & Judo might be able buy little time to make a point blank/close range optic blast, Batman would be much easier to tag if he's closer, and it would be much more difficult for Batman to dodge the blast in point blank/close range...
* that's the reason i'm giving Batman 2-3/10 chance that he would be able to strike a one-hit KO on Cyke if, and only if, Batman managed to get close to Cyke...
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Seems reasonable. I disagree, but that's not very unreasonable.
* thank you... 🙂
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It doesn't matter whether the battle is with prep; using resourcefulness, cheating, and utilization of the environment, The Joker's intelligence comes into play in a non-prop fight.
* my idea is also just like it's with Batman... the difference is, Joker's intelligence is close to insane/psychotic level...
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Still, you are right about the fact that Cyclops is more than likely to take this fight in long range. Like Batman, the Joker is faster than Cyclops, but unlike Batman, he doesn't have incredible useful gadgets (unless he frags Cykes with a submachine?) for long-ranged assaults. 8 or 9/10 seems plausible.
* i might consider Batman and Joker to have quicker reflexes than Cyke... but still, thought-controlled visor >>> quick reflexes, am i right?
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
You agree with me that the Joker would take it in close ranged combat, right?
* well, yeah, kinda, sorta... Joker cheats more than Batman though... i probably give 3-4/10 chance... 🙂
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Oh, and Peejayd, my reasoning for the 2-3/10 against Spidey is because, along with his vastly superhuman speed and reflexes, Spidey's also got something that no one else here has: a spider-sense. That will keep him safely ahead of Cyke's blasts until he can manuever close enough to take Cyke out. But Cyke could still get in a lucky shot, most likely to the environment more than Spidey himself.
* i was thinking Cyke knows the spider-sense thingamajig... i remember Daredevil deliberately throwing half of the billy-club recklessly, which Spidey easily dodged, and DD tagged Spidey with the other half, explaining the spider-sense can track anything but not everything... using that logic, how about bombarding Spidey with several small optic blasts? like what he did to Storm (i think he was mind-controlled back then) or just like when he disarmed several soldiers? 🙂
Originally posted by peejayd
* i was thinking Cyke knows the spider-sense thingamajig... i remember Daredevil deliberately throwing half of the billy-club recklessly, which Spidey easily dodged, and DD tagged Spidey with the other half, explaining the spider-sense can track anything but not everything... using that logic, how about bombarding Spidey with several small optic blasts? like what he did to Storm (i think he was mind-controlled back then) or just like when he disarmed several soldiers? 🙂
Spider Sense happens on sudden body part of spiderman?
-cyclop blast spiderman from right side at his arm, will his arm tingle or his whole body?