Pyron Vs God kratos, kain , Sparda

Originally posted by leonheartmm
who can give you video of him beig burried if you have brain enough to comprehend it. it wasnt weak, it was going to destroy a city, unless u call that weak. and it isnt a RED DOG, u moron, its the strongest spell caster in the cloud's team who fought against sephiroth called red13. dont you know ANYTHING?!??! heck, that guy controls his own personal army among many othert things. and it isnt just the dog, you seem to have missed the thing sitting on top of it. so WHY are u commenting when u havent even played thegames again?

those materia have NOT been retconned at all dumass, even AC had a cisual of the past where meteor was being summoned and holy was trying to stop it, so HOW has it been retconned again??? and dirge of cerberus happened AFTER advent children so chaos's materia cant be retconned. jeez ur silly

he is a single dimensional being who had to have RAZIEL and kain and mobius among other servant DO his biding in the real world. he only appears to RAZIEL when he enters the spectral realm. kain can roam freely in the same space without there being anything. and ofcourse he is! 😄 . any being with dimensional powers.soul powers can see him/reach him and harm him. its simply a measure of POWER, and since uve been beaten badly at your ignorant claims that no1 in dmc or ff cud do those pathetic hyped feats u mentioned, it seems that elder god will simply be overpowered and killed. it isnt a plot device. its just a measure of power.

where he has shown no spells, never claimed to be infinite, or undone anything that needed it. NICE ONE!

No it wasnt, it was going to blow up a couple of buildings if that with its energy blasts, it blew up a total of one momnument and a bit of scaffholding.

Well the strongest seems so damn weak but that makes sense in FF, the things a Red Dog anyway...and it BIT, BIT! the Dragon on the face and the dragon flew backwards, it was damaged by a dog bite.

Then Chaos' materia must be hte only strong ones, since the rest have been retconned, if not a lot of the materia into small blasters.

woah woah woah, stop right there, who says he had to have them? he chose to create them and gather their aid, he didnt "have to" do anything....
also you think Kain is a servent of the EG? okie dokie.....

yes thats why, Kain can indeed roam in the same place ,thats why the EG is a peculier mutli dimenstional being, because he can excist at the same time as not excisting in several dimensions, he can both smash physcial things as shown several times AND be untouchable.

you mean the EG can indeed wipe out the FF unvierse with ease? sure he can, hes big enough to smash the planet while the fools wont know whats going on. Its a plot device, a powerful enchanted blade, the only weapon that can damage EG.

No you mean where it is claimed Balance guardians regulate the magic power....thats the one...regulate it into being an infnite cycle..simple

1. thats where ur wrong, the aspects affect people as much as the land

2. hence, thas ur windeabout way of saying it IS magic, got it

3. son, you SERIOUSLY wanna challenge me on physics? fine then, little idiot, i shall enlighten your ignorant ass. in physics, energy is simply, the ability to do work, that is, the product of force and the distance across which it acts which is also interpreted as 1/2mv sqared,. that is ALL it is dumass. it doesnt apply to MAGIC, all it applies to is creating and destroying PHYSICAL bonds in matter or giving a velocity to a PHYSICAL object. and it has no biases based on consequence dependant on the WHIMS of personal emotions. magic is in NO way applicable to the rule that energy can neither be created nor be destroyed,{it isnt INFINITE DUMASS} it only changes forms. and again, no cannon instance of him SAYING its infinite or even saying that he has power over all that the PILLARS have as balance guardian.

YOUR guessing the answer which has never even been hinted at. im not guessing anything, im merely saying that your guess is UTTERLY baseless. nosgoth and the pillars have a FINITE amoung of magic, and kain is its BALANCER not its MASTER.

did you NOT get my foxhole collapsing analogy or r u just retarted.{nod if it is both}

why does he have to rely on pawns to do his dirty work then?

it is not only buried in physical rocks byt the GROUND on which it rests is collapsing into a pit, spectral or physical, beings can not stand on NUTHING. this is proven by the geography odf the spectral realm when raziel navigates it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
1. thats where ur wrong, the aspects affect people as much as the land

2. hence, thas ur windeabout way of saying it IS magic, got it

3. son, you SERIOUSLY wanna challenge me on physics? fine then, little idiot, i shall enlighten your ignorant ass. in physics, energy is simply, the ability to do work, that is, the product of force and the distance across which it acts which is also interpreted as 1/2mv sqared,. that is ALL it is dumass. it doesnt apply to MAGIC, all it applies to is creating and destroying PHYSICAL bonds in matter or giving a velocity to a PHYSICAL object. and it has no biases based on consequence dependant on the WHIMS of personal emotions. magic is in NO way applicable to the rule that energy can neither be created nor be destroyed,{it isnt INFINITE DUMASS} it only changes forms. and again, no cannon instance of him SAYING its infinite or even saying that he has power over all that the PILLARS have as balance guardian.

YOUR guessing the answer which has never even been hinted at. im not guessing anything, im merely saying that your guess is UTTERLY baseless. nosgoth and the pillars have a FINITE amoung of magic, and kain is its BALANCER not its MASTER.

did you NOT get my foxhole collapsing analogy or r u just retarted.{nod if it is both}

why does he have to rely on pawns to do his dirty work then?

it is not only buried in physical rocks byt the GROUND on which it rests is collapsing into a pit, spectral or physical, beings can not stand on NUTHING. this is proven by the geography odf the spectral realm when raziel navigates it.

1. Proof for this claim that people are dieing because of the pillars?

2. Soul devouring enttiy..not magic 🙂

3. Your calling it finite, thats a claim...only the ability to use magic is finite and the ability to channel it, otherwise its just energy..

4. Kain is its regulator AND balancor, thus he can regulate what it does, its a form of government and control, magic is his toy basically.

you obviously didnt understand my words, I dont speak other languages so sry...

he doesnt have to rely on anyone, he chooses to use RAZIEL because he himself cannot suck vampire souls to spin them in the will which is why their almost undefeatable in general however he doesnt need to suck vampire souls, he is merely a parasite.

Once again, you failed completly after saying physical when you claim yourself that apprently he is only in the soul dimesion, which is a diffent dimension to the physical, youve gotten confused, dont understand the EG, and have no idea of the LOK series, simple.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No it wasnt, it was going to blow up a couple of buildings if that with its energy blasts, it blew up a total of one momnument and a bit of scaffholding.

Well the strongest seems so damn weak but that makes sense in FF, the things a Red Dog anyway...and it BIT, [b]BIT! the Dragon on the face and the dragon flew backwards, it was damaged by a dog bite.

Then Chaos' materia must be hte only strong ones, since the rest have been retconned, if not a lot of the materia into small blasters.

woah woah woah, stop right there, who says he had to have them? he chose to create them and gather their aid, he didnt "have to" do anything....
also you think Kain is a servent of the EG? okie dokie.....

yes thats why, Kain can indeed roam in the same place ,thats why the EG is a peculier mutli dimenstional being, because he can excist at the same time as not excisting in several dimensions, he can both smash physcial things as shown several times AND be untouchable.

you mean the EG can indeed wipe out the FF unvierse with ease? sure he can, hes big enough to smash the planet while the fools wont know whats going on. Its a plot device, a powerful enchanted blade, the only weapon that can damage EG.

No you mean where it is claimed Balance guardians regulate the magic power....thats the one...regulate it into being an infnite cycle..simple [/B]

its called mega flare and it was going to destroy the city, the size of the blast itself was larger than a FEW buildings, and it EXPLODES. ignorant one.

it isnt a red DOG u numbskull, u just dont have the brains to see what is sitting on TOP of the red dog. and again it is the strongest spell caster in the group. the dragon flew back from an ENERGY blast by the character not a BITE.

your an idiot, give me a REASON why the rest have been retconned, {which is odd since you know NUTHING about the game} there are weak materia like first level spells, then there are strong materia with thiird level spells, then there are high level summon materia like bahamut and knights of the round table and then super power special materia as chaos's materia and dark materia{both of which are completeley cannon as seen in ac and DOC as well as bahamut}. you are making yourself look like a complete fool, HOW are the materias retconned? give me a reason.

kain is an UNWILLING servant of elder god, and he had all those servant because he NEEDED them. why else?

he exists in one dimension, the GROUND and large structures exist in BOTH dimensions, and canbe affected by such{evidences byt the fact that spectral raziel walks on GROUND in the spectral realm} .

no i mean your an idiot who doesnt even realise that EACH final fantasy happens in its own universe different from the other and most happen at the level of the entire universe as opposed to a pesky planet. the elder god is a littlw wuss who was defeated by getting tentacles and eyes cut in ONE room{irrespective of how they wer cut} he will be raped and murdered by most of the strong characters in any final fantasy.

never said, never happened. the balance guardian BALANCES all other aspect. and eve REGULATERS arent the same as GENERATERS. understand the language .

Originally posted by leonheartmm
its called mega flare and it was going to destroy the city, the size of the blast itself was larger than a FEW buildings, and it EXPLODES. ignorant one.

it isnt a red DOG u numbskull, u just dont have the brains to see what is sitting on TOP of the red dog. and again it is the strongest spell caster in the group. the dragon flew back from an ENERGY blast by the character not a BITE.

your an idiot, give me a REASON why the rest have been retconned, {which is odd since you know NUTHING about the game} there are weak materia like first level spells, then there are strong materia with thiird level spells, then there are high level summon materia like bahamut and knights of the round table and then super power special materia as chaos's materia and dark materia{both of which are completeley cannon as seen in ac and DOC as well as bahamut}. you are making yourself look like a complete fool, HOW are the materias retconned? give me a reason.

kain is an UNWILLING servant of elder god, and he had all those servant because he NEEDED them. why else?

he exists in one dimension, the GROUND and large structures exist in BOTH dimensions, and canbe affected by such{evidences byt the fact that spectral raziel walks on GROUND in the spectral realm} .

no i mean your an idiot who doesnt even realise that EACH final fantasy happens in its own universe different from the other and most happen at the level of the entire universe as opposed to a pesky planet. the elder god is a littlw wuss who was defeated by getting tentacles and eyes cut in ONE room{irrespective of how they wer cut} he will be raped and murdered by most of the strong characters in any final fantasy.

never said, never happened. the balance guardian BALANCES all other aspect. and eve REGULATERS arent the same as GENERATERS. understand the language .

The massive one didnt actually hit anything, it lost its energy halfway through before it even hit the ground.

Its a Red Dog with a bear on its back...great....

false, the dragon was indeed bitten several times

Their retconned because out of all those materias, perhaps about 10 between them, the two remnants created a fairly medicore explosion, no fire spells, nothing, same iwith Kadaj materia in his arm, blasts is all he fired half the time, pathetic, do we see all the other materia later in the film? no...all we see out of large combinations of materia on the remnants is blasts of energy, thus...retcon.

As i said in the other thread and Kain is not a servant at all, explain?

its one split dimension creating two realities, the being EG is in both that we know of, thus he is multi, as I said, he can manipulate both dimensions, hes not only in one lol

lamo, they wouldnt even see the thing as it rips them apart, not to mention he regerates instantly with more and more tentacles, they have no way of defeating the full Elder Gods form thats for sure...

Regulators are when the magic you regulate is infnite, regulation is like being governed, if you govern magic itself you rule it, thus it can be infnite if Kain wills it, simple logic.

1. it didnt hit because cloud killed bahamut before it hit

2. do you have EYES?! its a CAT!!!!!!

3. strawman. it was only PUSHED back by the energy blast not the bite

4. your indeed foolish, that line of thinking is flawed because those materia can just be attributed to the many many WEAKER materias in the game like fire/ice/water/thunder. it doesnt RETCON any of the stronger ones as they can be explained away by being the weaker ones.

5. he is a pawn

6. large structures are present to interact with in both dimensions. that is how he affected the real world. he wasnt simultaneously present in it

7. he doesnt have the power to scratch them

8. wrong on three accounts in the same sentence, wow. regulaters are present to REGULATE{i.e. channel } the ALREADY PRESENT resource. nuthing in feats or claims in game even hints towards the RESOURCE beinfg infinite. the tap can only give out as much water as is present in the tank, even if left fully open. it cant CREATE more water. similarly even if kain DID "control" all magic, he cudnt create MORE magic than was in his control. and he doesnt control it all to begin with. your not strong on logic.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
1. it didnt hit because cloud killed bahamut before it hit

2. do you have EYES?! its a CAT!!!!!!

3. strawman. it was only PUSHED back by the energy blast not the bite

4. your indeed foolish, that line of thinking is flawed because those materia can just be attributed to the many many WEAKER materias in the game like fire/ice/water/thunder. it doesnt RETCON any of the stronger ones as they can be explained away by being the weaker ones.

5. he is a pawn

6. large structures are present to interact with in both dimensions. that is how he affected the real world. he wasnt simultaneously present in it

7. he doesnt have the power to scratch them

8. wrong on three accounts in the same sentence, wow. regulaters are present to REGULATE{i.e. channel } the ALREADY PRESENT resource. nuthing in feats or claims in game even hints towards the RESOURCE beinfg infinite. the tap can only give out as much water as is present in the tank, even if left fully open. it cant CREATE more water. similarly even if kain DID "control" all magic, he cudnt create MORE magic than was in his control. and he doesnt control it all to begin with. your not strong on logic.

1. It had already left the things mouth lol...

2. w/e, they look queer either way

3. thats not a strawman.....

4. So Clouds entire stash was weak? there wasnt even any firega etc etc in there, therefore that gives the logic of them all being retconned into diffrent blasts likely.

5. by doing what? hes no pawn at all....

6. But their the same dimension, they would be split, thus he is in both dimensions since he can affect and excist in both.

7. .....wow brillaint point, the enormous amount of logic, combined with proof was perfect

8. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/regulator

One, such as the member of a governmental regulatory agency, that ensures compliance with laws, regulations, and established rules

he is the one who calls upon the rules to control magic, there is because its infnite like in any other by default, its like saying Dantes regeration stops regerating him if he has to regen for too long, its nonsense because tis a constant activity. He does control it all because hes the regulatory guardian so your taling BS again.....you didnt read the proof ive already given you earlier that Kain is the regulator, but you dont seem to understand what proof is.

BURNING FINGEEERRR!!!!

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because its mentioned in storyline tone thats why.

Diffrences:

1. Materia can be selected by the player in-game to be used by almost any character
2. Materia are simply mentioned in gameplay terms, no canon story terms.

1*. Kains spells are his only, only Kain gains them throughout the game
2*. Kains spells not only have storyline script for every one he gains just like almost other power that is canon unlike uncaonon materia.

No perhaps Materia just creates blast in canon, thats shown in the AC, all we see is Remnants using many diffrent materia, and all they do is create blasts or amplify abilities, they dont seem to do anything else.

Even if we ignore the entire FF7 storyline, Crisis Core, Before Crisis, and all the guides, novels, files, that state otherwise, your AC point is still fail.

oh okie lets have another mockery of your lacking debating technique

Kain has all the powers Demitri and Jedah have in DS....they are vampires.

So w8 a min, your creating some half @ssed theory based around the same beings spieces having the same pwoers? what a load of BS....

SO your saying we cannot use the power cosmic because many beings can gain it? your saying we cannot use any of the powers Kratos gains because apprently anyone can gain them? we cannot use any of Sephiroth/FF powers because anyone can gain them? and finally we cannot use Dantes styles because anyone half demon could? that was the basis of your argument, you claimed Kains spells are not unique to him and therefore we cannot use them......

youve destroyed your own argument and shown your foolery.

Yet you've been saying "Noes!! Materia is uncanon because ANYONE can use them, but Only KAIN can learn spellz!!!!" man you keep making yourself seem smarter and smarter.

what are you talking about? outside of gameplay? heres a few I can remember off the top of my head:

Kains outside of gameplay feats

Defeating the circle of nine who wield powers of varying elements BO
defeating Hylden Lord possesion BO
Defeating Hylden race BO 2
Destroying Hylden Lord BO 2

Defeating Raziel in the first battle in Defiance nad tooling him throughout the series most games
Defeated a multidimentional godlike entity Defiance

1) thats the correct one, although more likely its not Kain who chooses, tis the developers of the game

2) no because thats the thing, its in the canon story as soon as Kain gives a storyline speech on it, just like any other canon power in gaming.

Atlas quake along with all the powers are gained the same way Kain gains his spells, their placed in the players path so that you cant get around them but technicaly, the player "chooses the option" to pass through otherwise you cannot contue, just like DMC powers, only DMC powers are also bought.

Kains spell you can finish the story without getting the optional spell.

Dantes personal assets are unlocked by buying them, but they are really his abilities as they are always in his character, just needing to be unlocked.

All his plans are failures overall, he plans to gain all the power of the Shinra thing but he is foiled, he plans to use the planet as a ship but is foiled, all his plans seem to fail and their only a couple, ive not seen every moment of the FF games so I wouldnt know every failure, but he fails overall in his schemes since obviously...he is not ruler of the world.

He planned to take over the planet yes, too bad plot doesn't allow him to.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/dejoule.php?sec=1&type=1

Whatever it sounds like to you, it happens, and yes it is warping reality, their warping trees and objects and beings into diffrent forms, the fact their using magic and sorcery to cause the warp in reality is neither here nor there.

But Gods are not everything, God is a title, you should state what you mean next time, but as I said, my version of kain is the only version of kain. What do you mean "only", what the hell are you talking about? theres perhaps a handfull of people in this forum, so who are you basing "the rest of the world" on? espcially since 80% of the people in the forum have never played a LOk game it seems and those who claim to (leon for example) get swatted in their knowledge lack.

So your saying about 23,000 people on the forum have played LOK but only 1 or 2 people actually understand it? Haha yeah ok.

Ill simply say your blind or in denial, the guy simply doesnt move his body back, just him arm.

Whats the UOG, whatever it is,that thing (duel hound or w/e) charges/glows when he moves fast, thus it seems to be the source of his speed, he is slow early on when hes not using it, when Tifa is fighting him normally.

An in-universe explanation for why Loz often moves with a blue blur behind him is not given. It's simply said that because he's so big and bulky, they wanted to off-set his girth by making him look really fast and used the blue blur only for him to emphasise that he's fast. It's not suggested -- despite how often people think so -- that it has anything to do with his Dual Hound.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Uh its how the game style is presented, BO1 uses voice instead of text, but not EVERYHITNG is storyline canon, not every chained up grunt is canon just because they repeatedly go help me help me, or etc.

1. so? If Kain is the only vampire capable of learning spells (which you can't even prove) then why is Vorador able to learn spells as well?
2. What are you talking about? The entire FF7 canon storyline is based around materia, black materia trying to stop it, white materia.

Nothing suggests that any other vampire couldn't have learned the spell either, if another vampire went to dark eden, whats to say he couldn't have learned spirit death either? Only a few of Kains spells had to do with the story, like energy bolt, spirit death didn't have anything to do with the story, now stop spouting lies.

Uhh, sorry but thats a really pathetic claim, you only see them using materia 3 times in AC, the first time he used to summon bahamut sin, the second time he fired bolt at Cloud, the last time they detonated the roof.

Even if we ignore the entire FF7 storyline, Crisis Core, Before Crisis, and all the guides, novels, files, that state otherwise, your AC point is still fail.

Another fail, vampires from different games are basically different species with different power ranges,(vampires in DS are more powerful then vampires in LOK, vampires in LOK are more powerful then vampires in buffy.) But a vampire in LOK is a vampire in LOK.

No, i'm saying NOTHING suggests that a vampire in LOK is INCAPABLE of learning a spell which another vampire was able to learn genius.

Haha whats funny here is YOU were the one who has been desperately trying so hard to make spells be only limited to Kain, i [b]never we cannot use them because they other people are able to use them, infact i said "what relevance does it even have if more then one person can use the materia/spell?" in my previous post

Yet you've been saying "Noes!! Materia is uncanon because ANYONE can use them, but Only KAIN can learn spellz!!!!" man you keep making yourself seem smarter and smarter.

So his only feats are defeating people? Great.

The entire game has no text, it doesn't mean every noise/voice you hear is part of the actual canon storyline, not every monsters "grrr" or every persons "please help me kind sir" is canon.

So then the spell IS needed to finish the story, which makes it canon.

Kains spell you can finish the story without getting the optional spell.

Dantes personal assets are unlocked by buying them, but they are really his abilities as they are always in his character, just needing to be unlocked.

He plans to gain the power of the shinra thing? Huh? Why would he want to be president of a company? Rofl.

He planned to take over the planet yes, too bad plot doesn't allow him to.

And?

They're mutating plants and animals around a tower, that is hardly "reality warping" its just simple sorcery (as its even stated), Reality Warping is being able to Warp Reality as it is, Like warping Kain into a duck, or warping a land into the ocean. What have they done as a battle feat?

The typical God, meaning all powerful, all knowing, all omniscient. Your version of Kain is the one that can kill anything.

So your saying about 23,000 people on the forum have played LOK but only 1 or 2 people actually understand it? Haha yeah ok.

Sorry but i'd rather believe the facts then your word.

UOG is the Ultimania Omega Guide, the UOG says your wrong:

An in-universe explanation for why Loz often moves with a blue blur behind him is not given. It's simply said that because he's so big and bulky, they wanted to off-set his girth by making him look really fast and used the blue blur only for him to emphasise that he's fast. It's not suggested -- despite how often people think so -- that it has anything to do with his Dual Hound. [/B]

wtf? yes tehy use voice just like they do in storyline and its storyline words, not "hit this key to contune" which is not. What are you talking about? your showing you dont understand storyline again, the journey between cutscenes is not "non canon"......insignifcant things like that chained up grunt are canon, simply not important to what happens to Kain during a story thus he wouldnt be mentioned, just like Sarafan Kain kills are.

1. I dont have to prove anything, the game is the source for LOK and nowhere in it do vampires have selectable abilities that are interchangable, their unique to each vampire most of the time, powers and abilities that when you gain them you cant move around like most character abiilties. Vorador learns spells, he just doesnt use all the spelsl Kain uses.

2. No i meant the materia like Kights of the round, you dont get story text for them, none that youve shown so far.

energy bolt is just as much to do with the story as all the other abilities, you just have difficulty in understanding how an abiltiy described with storyline actor text in Kains personality (so as soon as he speaks its in the game universe, not gameplay terms anyway) makes an ability which is just like every other canon in-game character ability canon.

No its not a fail because they have more than one materia, your telling me that out of about 10 materia between the last two remnants simply fireing a blast the likes of which doesnt even look like any materia in the games, thus its likely most of the materia if not all have been retconned.

Their vampires your the one who simply said "their vampires so theyll have the same powers" which is BS because their learnt powers by Kain not natural, so I mocked you point. Either way your point/argument was a waste.

That does NOT MATTER it does not matter if someone is capable, all that matters is whether or not they use it in the game Kain is capable of learnign kung fu and becoming a blackbelt level 10 given the time but the guy doesnt, so ime not going to use them in debates, your trying to use something that doesnt happen.

The Spells are limited to kain in teh way ime trying to show you that they are usable only by him uniquely, in FF materia is not only a completly optional, interchangable system where you can mvoe them between various characters thus simpl making them like items, materia doesnt afaik have no storyline text for each one, do the characters actually mention for example firega or Kights of round in a storyline fashion?

Well because only Kain in the game can use the spells HE gains

Their not relevent storyline canon but when theres a small cutscene, storyline text by the main character himself makes it completly canon.

Well some of those people could completly tool Sephiroth especialyl EG, their all feats anyway so it proves you wrong, but i dont usually use feats to back me up in debates, I use canon information.

Kains spells are all needed to finish it because some monsters require it to be easily desroyed, and its not required to finish the story, he never uses it in the story so what are you talking about?

NO because many of the spells are in your path so you cant just walk around them, but obviously the canon story is Kain gaining all the spells anyway for those that are optional.

NOt all of them, half the weapons he gains, especially some of the swords are not gained until you find them in the game and many are optional, but their used in debates:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=483909&pagenumber=2

Yeh that Shinra power, I know its a company but they have those power generators sucking on the LS.

He planned, he failed...simple..

Warping Kain into a Duck is not warping reality as much as it is transformation, warping reality is simply twisting, deforming, warpiong etc the reality whch was plants and animals, into distorted beings, as it says however, they used sorcery, but reality was distorted.

NO its not the version that can kill everything...when did I say that, unless your arrogent enough to claim Sephiroth who I call him superior over a God?..wouldnt surprise me, Pyron is not a God either so your talking a large can of BS here.

23k people dont come into the games VS forums, infacty theres prob about 5-10 recent goers, a handful, perhaps about 5 actually debate...less so prob debate Kain at all or even try, either way, most people in games VS have eithern ot play LOk or did not understand it, thus you get people claiming EG is getting buried because all tehyve seen is the last video of the game then they claim theyve played thte game...naming no names.

Ime using the same image, he moves only his arm back, so mine is also fact.

Its not suggested, simple, it didnt say ime wrong, its just not suggested, it said they used their anime graphics to make him look fast as well, thats all, either way, Kain moves faster over his smaller distance.

Originally posted by Burning thought
wtf? yes tehy use voice just like they do in storyline and its storyline words, not "hit this key to contune" which is not. What are you talking about? your showing you dont understand storyline again, the journey between cutscenes is not "non canon"......insignifcant things like that chained up grunt are canon, simply not important to what happens to Kain during a story thus he wouldnt be mentioned, just like Sarafan Kain kills are.

1. I dont have to prove anything, the game is the source for LOK and nowhere in it do vampires have selectable abilities that are interchangable, their unique to each vampire most of the time, powers and abilities that when you gain them you cant move around like most character abiilties. Vorador learns spells, he just doesnt use all the spelsl Kain uses.

energy bolt is just as much to do with the story as all the other abilities, you just have difficulty in understanding how an abiltiy described with storyline actor text in Kains personality (so as soon as he speaks its in the game universe, not gameplay terms anyway) makes an ability which is just like every other canon in-game character ability canon.

You don't understand, not EVERYTHING in the entire game is canon, a lot of the optional stuff are not.

No its not a fail because they have more than one materia, your telling me that out of about 10 materia between the last two remnants simply fireing a blast the likes of which doesnt even look like any materia in the games, thus its likely most of the materia if not all have been retconned.

Their vampires your the one who simply said "their vampires so theyll have the same powers" which is BS because their learnt powers by Kain not natural, so I mocked you point. Either way your point/argument was a waste.

That does NOT MATTER it does not matter if someone is capable, all that matters is whether or not they use it in the game Kain is capable of learnign kung fu and becoming a blackbelt level 10 given the time but the guy doesnt, so ime not going to use them in debates, your trying to use something that doesnt happen.

The Spells are limited to kain in teh way ime trying to show you that they are usable only by him uniquely, in FF materia is not only a completly optional, interchangable system where you can mvoe them between various characters thus simpl making them like items, materia doesnt afaik have no storyline text for each one, do the characters actually mention for example firega or Kights of round in a storyline fashion?

Well because only Kain in the game can use the spells HE gains

Their not relevent storyline canon but when theres a small cutscene, storyline text by the main character himself makes it completly canon.

Well some of those people could completly tool Sephiroth especialyl EG, their all feats anyway so it proves you wrong, but i dont usually use feats to back me up in debates, I use canon information.

Kains spells are all needed to finish it because some monsters require it to be easily desroyed, and its not required to finish the story, he never uses it in the story so what are you talking about?

NO because many of the spells are in your path so you cant just walk around them, but obviously the canon story is Kain gaining all the spells anyway for those that are optional.

NOt all of them, half the weapons he gains, especially some of the swords are not gained until you find them in the game and many are optional, but their used in debates:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=483909&pagenumber=2

Yeh that Shinra power, I know its a company but they have those power generators sucking on the LS.

He planned, he failed...simple..

Warping Kain into a Duck is not warping reality as much as it is transformation, warping reality is simply twisting, deforming, warpiong etc the reality whch was plants and animals, into distorted beings, as it says however, they used sorcery, but reality was distorted.

Plain and simple, they used sorcery and caused some plants and animals to mutate around a tower, not very impressive.

NO its not the version that can kill everything...when did I say that, unless your arrogent enough to claim Sephiroth who I call him superior over a God?..wouldnt surprise me, Pyron is not a God either so your talking a large can of BS here.

23k people dont come into the games VS forums, infacty theres prob about 5-10 recent goers, a handful, perhaps about 5 actually debate...less so prob debate Kain at all or even try, either way, most people in games VS have eithern ot play LOk or did not understand it, thus you get people claiming EG is getting buried because all tehyve seen is the last video of the game then they claim theyve played thte game...naming no names.

Ime using the same image, he moves only his arm back, so mine is also fact.

Open your eyes a bit wider, look closely at the first frame, does it look identical to the last frames? If you say yes, i'm really going to laugh.

If its not identical to the last frames, then yes it has moved.

Kain puts his weight on his backleg, and springs forward with momentum.

He holds out his arm like that as proof, its like throwing a punch.

Its not suggested, simple, it didnt say ime wrong, its just not suggested, it said they used their anime graphics to make him look fast as well, thats all, either way, Kain moves faster over his smaller distance.

You claimed that the source of his speed is his blue glow, so yes you are wrong.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The optional things are NOT storyline, the mandatory things that are needed for the story to continue are storyline, its no different from the optional materia or items you get in an RPG.

Exactly you have no proof, so other vampires are most like capable of learning spells learning spells like spirit death, etc, nothing suggests they aren't capable of learning them

No, energy bolt had to do with the story, he needed that spell so that he can reach the switch, what was spirit death required in the story by? Nothing.

You don't understand, not EVERYTHING in the entire game is canon, a lot of the optional stuff are not.

.. What? Did you not read what i said properly? I told you, they used THREE materia in the entire AC movie, One summon(bahamut sin), one bolt(in the church), and another materia which looked like too many materia in the games to be specific(at the roof).
Now stop trying to argue facts, it makes you look very unintelligent.

Did you not read what I said? "Another fail, vampires from different games are basically different species with different power ranges,(vampires in DS are more powerful then vampires in LOK, vampires in LOK are more powerful then vampires in buffy.) "

I'm saying that other vampires are CAPABLE of learning it, and you're saying that they AREN'T thats the point i'm saying, i'm not saying that every single vampire has spirit death, i'm saying that a vampire is capable of learning spirit death like kain, and that spells are not only limited to kain himself, which makes it similar to materia.

Again nothing suggests that spells are limited to only Kain either, if Vorador went to dark eden, he could learn spirit death as well, When Cloud obtained the black materia (which is part of the storyline) it said "You have acquired the black materia" in the exact same fasion if you pick up an optional materia off the ground, the difference is one is optional, one is actually part of the storyline.

Spells aren't only limited to Kain. Other vampires can learn spells too.

There is no "small cutscene" wtf, theres a voice, just like you hear everywhere else, not all the voices you hear is canon, its just automatic speech when you acquire something, there is no text in the game, thats the style the game was created.

EG's feats are? Having a lot of tenticles? If EG wasn't invisible, Sephiroth would tool him, even Kain was able to beat him which makes him a laugh.

Just because you can defeat monsters more easy with it, doesn't make it canon.

Yes, Kratos spells are in his path and he cannot pass through unless he gets it, and if he cannot pass through then the story in incomplete, and in canon the story obviously did complete which means he passed through(obtaining the spell)

What are you referring to? I see cinematics of him using the weapons, which means he atually did get it in the story.

And what does that have to do with Sephiroth? Sephiroth doesn't care about Shinra, he annihilated the company in about 5 minutes.

You can say that about every single antagonist in every single game.

Reality Warping is being able to warp reality as it is, just mutating some plants and animals can hardly be called "reality warping" unless your trying to amp up something alot more then it is, hell i can melt a plastic army toy then call it reality warping, because i caused reality to be "distorted".

Plain and simple, they used sorcery and caused some plants and animals to mutate around a tower, not very impressive.

Dude, you think Kain can beat Pyron, or any DS, I don't claim Sephiroth can beat Pyron, you need to start seeing Kain as he really is, a featless character which gameplay moves.

You said 80% of the forum have never played LOK which means 20% have, out of all the people who have played LOK, only you are the person who truely understands it? Haha sorry but i find that kind of funny.

Do you even know what a body is? Its what your arms are connected to, do you see that part staying totally still?

Open your eyes a bit wider, look closely at the first frame, does it look identical to the last frames? If you say yes, i'm really going to laugh.

If its not identical to the last frames, then yes it has moved.

Kain puts his weight on his backleg, and springs forward with momentum.

He holds out his arm like that as proof, its like throwing a punch.

Not suggested that we should believe it has anything to do with his Dual Hound, if they don't suggest us to do something, it most likely means its because its wrong.

You claimed that the source of his speed is his blue glow, so yes you are wrong.

yes it is because those things you mention are not mentioend in storyline script or unique to that character.

I dont need proof, as i said, no vampire in LOK uses the same spells but more importantly their not interchangable like Materia are and manipulated by the character.

YOU dont understand, a lot of the optional things are more like the real versions especially when storyline in character speech speaks of them, if Kain says something in the game like when he finds these spells then its just as canon as any other ability.

They dont use one materia on the roof, not even close, they have about 5 in each of their arms, you can see them glowing

Ime not saying they cant, ime saying its not proven in the games that any vampire gains or uses that spell thus its unique to Kain in the game.

Thing is what makes that storyline materia real is the storyline that goes with it, which all of the LOK spells have as soon as a character speaks of them in the gaming universe character portray.

The voice is exactley like a cutscene, the player is not controlling the power at the time and its not gameplay, its Kains in character, IN THE STORY UNIVERSE. speech not a gameplay dialogue text

A lot? the guy is larger than most FF7 monsters put together, infact hes likely far larger than the city the game is mostly set in since his mass is across continents, so no, Sephiroth wouldnt even begin to fight the thing whether it was invisble or not then youve got the fact it can regerate limbs, infact double upon them (like a hydra) instantly.

In canon the storyline of GOW Kratos passes through events like killing the hydra and the cutscenes, but technically the paths the player takes is all gameplay thus being barred by some planks of wood are not necceserily canon, thus in the canon Kratos could have gone around, smashed through another way etc etc, thus your theory is incorrect since although the gameplay has to continue for the player, kratos story has already been written and none of those powers are in line with it, however their still canon, just like Kains.

How is a cinematic of him using it mean its in the story? what are you calling story? you see now were getting to another heart of the matter, you seem to think something has to be a cinematic to excist in the storyline? Dante slashing about with the sword is exactley what he does in the gamepaly as well. He may even have some speech which Kain has...its the speech that is the main "canon" since attacks and movements are in the gameplay, but the characters speech that he does once only when he gains the power is what means something.

Shinra used lifestream energy, Sephiroth failed to gain all the energy in his manipulations.

I know I can...and their failures still.

Reality warping is warping reality, simple, and no, thats not wraping reality since that IS reality, toy soldiers should due to reality melt when you burn them, thats science, wheras warping plants and animals into diffrent things that in reality they are not is reality warping.

mutating usually means genetic, it describes there were mutants created among the distortion but not only, read my source again.

Sephiroth does not have the ability to do so, Kain however does have a variety of powers that can that Pyron cannot be canonically stated to resist, and ive listed Kains feats so your in denial, his spells are his capabilities also, written in the games lore, not just gameplay like interchangable materia.

I also said that only about 5 people are regulaour in this forum, thus 20% is one...which means I was referring to myself, who else plays it and actually understand what going on? I mean if they can they ask me a hellava lot of questions and ask for proof if they belive to have played the games, I would not ask for so much proof if I had played through all the games and seen all the information Sephiroth has or other chracters.

No its not completly identicaly, Kains arm has moved back....thats it..Kain doesnt spring, if you watch the video again, his legs are static as he moves forwards, some sort of supernatural mumbo jumbo but there it is.

Or because its simply not suggested....

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes it is because those things you mention are not mentioend in storyline script or unique to that character.

I dont need proof, as i said, no vampire in LOK uses the same spells but more importantly their not interchangable like Materia are and manipulated by the character.

We don't see vampires using Spirit Death, but does that mean they're incapable of learning it? No. We've seen vampires use spells before.

YOU dont understand, a lot of the optional things are more like the real versions especially when storyline in character speech speaks of them, if Kain says something in the game like when he finds these spells then its just as canon as any other ability.

They dont use one materia on the roof, not even close, they have about 5 in each of their arms, you can see them glowing

Ime not saying they cant, ime saying its not proven in the games that any vampire gains or uses that spell thus its unique to Kain in the game.

Thing is what makes that storyline materia real is the storyline that goes with it, which all of the LOK spells have as soon as a character speaks of them in the gaming universe character portray.

The voice is exactley like a cutscene, the player is not controlling the power at the time and its not gameplay, its Kains in character, IN THE STORY UNIVERSE. speech not a gameplay dialogue text

A lot? the guy is larger than most FF7 monsters put together, infact hes likely far larger than the city the game is mostly set in since his mass is across continents, so no, Sephiroth wouldnt even begin to fight the thing whether it was invisble or not then youve got the fact it can regerate limbs, infact double upon them (like a hydra) instantly.

In canon the storyline of GOW Kratos passes through events like killing the hydra and the cutscenes, but technically the paths the player takes is all gameplay thus being barred by some planks of wood are not necceserily canon, thus in the canon Kratos could have gone around, smashed through another way etc etc, thus your theory is incorrect since although the gameplay has to continue for the player, kratos story has already been written and none of those powers are in line with it, however their still canon, just like Kains.

Like i said before, all optional things are just a "maybe" like maybe Cloud did get Knights of the Round, but theres no proof that he did, so we cannot say he has it, if the game forced Kratos to gain that power, then he most likely did get it.

Nothing suggests that Kain obtained that optional spell, the fact that in the next 4 sequals its never used, and unheard suggests that he probably didn't.

How is a cinematic of him using it mean its in the story? what are you calling story? you see now were getting to another heart of the matter, you seem to think something has to be a cinematic to excist in the storyline? Dante slashing about with the sword is exactley what he does in the gamepaly as well. He may even have some speech which Kain has...its the speech that is the main "canon" since attacks and movements are in the gameplay, but the characters speech that he does once only when he gains the power is what means something.

You don't understand, theres only ONE true canon story, its not exactly the same as how the player played the game

For example:

Player1: Played through the game and obtained every single item artifact and spell

Player2: Played through the game and obtained different items, and didn't get all the spells

It does NOT mean Player1's story is the canon one.

However; throughout both of their games the SAME cinematics happened, like Kain having a sword through him and being turned into a vampire, and Kain cutting off Moebius' head, those are all canon.

All the optional gameplay things are just "maybes"

Shinra used lifestream energy, Sephiroth failed to gain all the energy in his manipulations.

Sephiroth wanted to absorb the lifestream and become a god.

They had entirely different motives, so i don't see what you're trying to say about Sephiroth trying to use Shinra..

Reality warping is warping reality, simple, and no, thats not wraping reality since that IS reality, toy soldiers should due to reality melt when you burn them, thats science, wheras warping plants and animals into diffrent things that in reality they are not is reality
warping.
mutating usually means genetic, it describes there were mutants created among the distortion but not only, read my source again.

Sephiroth does not have the ability to do so, Kain however does have a variety of powers that can that Pyron cannot be canonically stated to resist, and ive listed Kains feats so your in denial, his spells are his capabilities also, written in the games lore, not just gameplay like interchangable materia.

I also said that only about 5 people are regulaour in this forum, thus 20% is one...which means I was referring to myself, who else plays it and actually understand what going on? I mean if they can they ask me a hellava lot of questions and ask for proof if they belive to have played the games, I would not ask for so much proof if I had played through all the games and seen all the information Sephiroth has or other chracters.

No its not completly identicaly, Kains arm has moved back....thats it..Kain doesnt spring, if you watch the video again, his legs are static as he moves forwards, some sort of supernatural mumbo jumbo but there it is.

You really would do anything to amp up Kains power, its really getting a bit sad.

Or because its simply not suggested....

Your really picking at every little thing to try to downplay characters you don't like, and amp up characters you want, its funny.. you should start looking at things logically.

Btw leon, I'm pretty sure BT is joking about that Materia Retconned comment, i don't think his intelligence is THAT low.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Spirit death doesn't have a storyline dialogue either, nor are spells unique to just Kain.

We don't see Rufus using Fire3 materia, but does that mean he's incapable of using it? No. We've seen Rufus use materia before.

We don't see vampires using Spirit Death, but does that mean they're incapable of learning it? No. We've seen vampires use spells before.

Why do you keep saying [b]storyline speech when it isn't? It has nothing to do with the story so its not a plot dialogue speech. So stop lying.

And? Maybe they're casting more then one spell.

But spells in general are not unique for only Kain, Vampires can learn spells just as humans can use materia.

The only 100% canon materia are the ones that were part of the story, the rest of the optional ones are just "maybes" same thing as Kains optional spells.

Voice is not a cutscene, its more like text, BO has its cutscenes like when he cuts off Moebius' head.

Uhh just hit him in his big eye in a similar fasion Kain did, eventually he'll go down. He didn't look impressive at all when Kain was fighting him.

If the game forces you to get the power, then Kratos most likely does get the power.

Like i said before, all optional things are just a "maybe" like maybe Cloud did get Knights of the Round, but theres no proof that he did, so we cannot say he has it, if the game forced Kratos to gain that power, then he most likely did get it.

Nothing suggests that Kain obtained that optional spell, the fact that in the next 4 sequals its never used, and unheard suggests that he probably didn't.

A cinematic means its in the story because no matter what, that cinematic HAS to happen, therefore it HAS to of happened, you cannot skip that cinematic, you cannot go a different way for that cinematic to not happen, it HAS to happen for the story to finish.

You don't understand, theres only ONE true canon story, its not exactly the same as how the player played the game

For example:

Player1: Played through the game and obtained every single item artifact and spell

Player2: Played through the game and obtained different items, and didn't get all the spells

It does NOT mean Player1's story is the canon one.

However; throughout both of their games the SAME cinematics happened, like Kain having a sword through him and being turned into a vampire, and Kain cutting off Moebius' head, those are all canon.

All the optional gameplay things are just "maybes"

Shinra had reactors to use lifestream as a source of energy, so they can have electricity to their cities and crap, what does Shinra have to do with Sephiroths goals?

Sephiroth wanted to absorb the lifestream and become a god.

They had entirely different motives, so i don't see what you're trying to say about Sephiroth trying to use Shinra..

And mutating plants and animals is due to their sorcery like its stated, its not "Reality Warping" haha, stop trying to amp up things more then it is please.

Kains feats are beating people who would be crushed by Pyron farting, Kain has never Soul ripped anyone in the LOK Plot, even if you do let him have his optional spell, he's never soul ripped anyone worth mentioning in the LOK Universe let alone anyone from a more powerful universe.

No, people ask for your proof because we don't buy your bs, and guess what? You always fail to deliver proof, so that must mean something.

You can see him putting his weight on his back leg so he can spring forward.. god..

You really would do anything to amp up Kains power, its really getting a bit sad.

If the creators suggest you not to think that Loz' speed comes from his Dual Hound, it basically means it doesn't.

Your really picking at every little thing to try to downplay characters you don't like, and amp up characters you want, its funny.. you should start looking at things logically. [/B]

They are unique to him in the LOK series, its simply "possible" others can gain it but they neither do nor do they get interchangable materia esque powers, and ive shown you the storyline text.

ofc anyone can use Materia, its just some item you can interchange between characters anyway, as soon as that fact is known Materia cannot be used as anything to gauge spells in LOK by, which are not interchangable between characters, your simply guessing that they are, but its not shown.

it is storyline, its IN CHARACTER speech connected with the universe of the game, thus its not gameplay

and? well out of 10 of those materia, none of them emit more than a blast of energy.....

Materia however in the game is interchangable items, expendable items like Devil stars in DMC, their not unique unsable items in debates, however spells are because only Kain actually kains them in the game and uses them, regardless of whether it IS possible or not for others to use it, going by your logic almost every power in fiction is not usable in debates because other beings can use it, more people than just Sephritoh can use his sword attacks, does that mean he cannot slash? no...

Their nothing like Kains spells, their interchangable in the game and controlled almost completly by the player, the spells being optional means nothing when they have in-universe storyline text to back them up. unfortatley, most materia dont have that, only gameplay 🙁

but its NOT TEXT, its in-universe speech, as soon as Kain says it in his personality tone for the game, and the fact hes THE main character as well makes the spell p[art of the universe, just not a gameplay mechanic...their part of the universe for being in the game full stop anyway but you seem to be in denile because heavens above if Kain has his spells to annhilate your fave characters with.

No he wouldnt look impressive, because thats gameplay, out of gameplay he is vast, thing is only Kain has the reaver which has proven to be the only blade to harm EG, if you had played th e game you would know he has hundreds of those "big eyes" throughout Nosgoth so for some reason the reaver harms the whole of the being, the main reason is likely the most obvious, it harms souls in general, which is the entire body of a being, not just the part being slashed.

false, the fact Kain has in-universe dialogue for each one means that if you line up all the speeches made my kain in the universe, he has gained those powers.

The cinematic happens true but that doesnt make the item in question canon.

Ofcourse theres only one true canon story, which is the one where Kain gains all the spells otherwise theres things that Kain has not said which are all to do with the unvierse in question, as ive said before there are many powers such as Mist that Kain carries with him throughout the games that he gains just like he does other spells, same with Spirit death, he seems to use what looks exactley like it in Soul reaver 1, either way shape or form, he has a line of story text/in unvierse dialogue that makes the spell imeidatley part of the games universe that Kain gains.

Doesnt Sephiroth use one of those reactors to some effect?

It is reality warping, their just using Sorcery to gain the effect of reality warping...reality is still warped....

not really, since Pyron still doesnt have any soul resistances so by default most beings in LOK who can cause soul rip could destroy him and he can still neither see nor touch EG, either way Kain with Spirit death can destroy Pyron with ease since Pyron has no resistances stated. Also stop making paradoxes, "a more powerful universe" its not a more powerful unvierse if the spell in question can destroy Pyron with a shot.....by what means is it more powerful...hell Demitri has a weakness as a vampire Kain lost when he was young so vampires in LOK have osme abilities more powerful than DS counterparts.

What? fail to give proof? ive given proof for every question put to me so stop BS yourself, infact youve got no evidence, just assumption for perhaps your entire list of arguments.

Kain doesnt spring anyway "god", the guy moves his arm back, thats it, your trying to argue that a guy whos legs dont even move while he moves about 4 meters is apprently springing? wtf.....nobody in real life can do that and more so, he is moving a far distance so that would be impossible to spring that distance anyway, the guys legs dont evne move as he goes forwards, if it was a leap h would bend his knees, if it was a momentum he would have to move his legs and upper back, but he doesnt, he simply moves forwards.

You really would do anything to downplay a character...it really is getting sad...

Or as the actrual source says..."suggests"

Originally posted by Terryc250
Btw leon, I hope BT doesnt carry on with his argument on materia being retconned, he may actually have a point there...why am i talking to you? your banned for 9 more days..damn...hmm

Originally posted by Burning thought
They are unique to him in the LOK series, its simply "possible" others can gain it but they neither do nor do they get interchangable materia esque powers, and ive shown you the storyline text.

ofc anyone can use Materia, its just some item you can interchange between characters anyway, as soon as that fact is known Materia cannot be used as anything to gauge spells in LOK by, which are not interchangable between characters, your simply guessing that they are, but its not shown.

it is storyline, its IN CHARACTER speech connected with the universe of the game, thus its not gameplay

Its a speech like any other speech, not every voice you hear makes it canon, there no text in the game, only voices.

and? well out of 10 of those materia, none of them emit more than a blast of energy.....

Materia however in the game is interchangable items, expendable items like Devil stars in DMC, their not unique unsable items in debates, however spells are because only Kain actually kains them in the game and uses them, regardless of whether it IS possible or not for others to use it, going by your logic almost every power in fiction is not usable in debates because other beings can use it, more people than just Sephritoh can use his sword attacks, does that mean he cannot slash? no...

Why is almost every power not usable in debates? Who said that just because other people can use its powers it cannot be used in debates? Who said that?

Their nothing like Kains spells, their interchangable in the game and controlled almost completly by the player, the spells being optional means nothing when they have in-universe storyline text to back them up. unfortatley, most materia dont have that, only gameplay 🙁

So unless you give me proof he has it, my point stands.

but its NOT TEXT, its in-universe speech, as soon as Kain says it in his personality tone for the game, and the fact hes THE main character as well makes the spell p[art of the universe, just not a gameplay mechanic...their part of the universe for being in the game full stop anyway but you seem to be in denile because heavens above if Kain has his spells to annhilate your fave characters with.

Your just repeating yourself now because you fail to provide any evidence.

No he wouldnt look impressive, because thats gameplay, out of gameplay he is vast, thing is only Kain has the reaver which has proven to be the only blade to harm EG, if you had played th e game you would know he has hundreds of those "big eyes" throughout Nosgoth so for some reason the reaver harms the whole of the being, the main reason is likely the most obvious, it harms souls in general, which is the entire body of a being, not just the part being slashed.

false, the fact Kain has in-universe dialogue for each one means that if you line up all the speeches made my kain in the universe, he has gained those powers.

The cinematic happens true but that doesnt make the item in question canon.

Ofcourse theres only one true canon story, which is the one where Kain gains all the spells otherwise theres things that Kain has not said which are all to do with the unvierse in question, as ive said before there are many powers such as Mist that Kain carries with him throughout the games that he gains just like he does other spells, same with Spirit death, he seems to use what looks exactley like it in Soul reaver 1, either way shape or form, he has a line of story text/in unvierse dialogue that makes the spell imeidatley part of the games universe that Kain gains.

He has a dialogue describing the spell he acquires, just like any other optional spell, it has nothing to do with the story.

Doesnt Sephiroth use one of those reactors to some effect?

It is reality warping, their just using Sorcery to gain the effect of reality warping...reality is still warped....

I can say the same and be like "I used my lighter to cause the REALITY WARPING of the toy soldier, see! the Soldier is warping into mush!"

not really, since Pyron still doesnt have any soul resistances so by default most beings in LOK who can cause soul rip could destroy him and he can still neither see nor touch EG, either way Kain with Spirit death can destroy Pyron with ease since Pyron has no resistances stated. Also stop making paradoxes, "a more powerful universe" its not a more powerful unvierse if the spell in question can destroy Pyron with a shot.....by what means is it more powerful...hell Demitri has a weakness as a vampire Kain lost when he was young so vampires in LOK have osme abilities more powerful than DS counterparts.

What? fail to give proof? ive given proof for every question put to me so stop BS yourself, infact youve got no evidence, just assumption for perhaps your entire list of arguments.

Kain doesnt spring anyway "god", the guy moves his arm back, thats it, your trying to argue that a guy whos legs dont even move while he moves about 4 meters is apprently springing? wtf.....nobody in real life can do that and more so, he is moving a far distance so that would be impossible to spring that distance anyway, the guys legs dont evne move as he goes forwards, if it was a leap h would bend his knees, if it was a momentum he would have to move his legs and upper back, but he doesnt, he simply moves forwards.

You really would do anything to downplay a character...it really is getting sad...

Or as the actrual source says..."suggests"

"Its not suggested that you do drugs" means you shouldnt do drugs

"Its not suggested that you party a lot" means you shouldnt party lots

"Its not suggested, despite how often people think so, that it has anything to do with his Dual Hound" means it doesn't have anything to do with his dual hound despite the fact that some people think that.

Originally posted by Terryc250
And its possible for others to use materia as well, your point?

Learning spells can be learned by other vampires, Materia can be used by other humans, thats the bottom line, i dont see what you are getting at.

Storyline means it has to do with the story, does it? No, so no its not storyline.

Its a speech like any other speech, not every voice you hear makes it canon, there no text in the game, only voices.

Says who? It could be Fire1, Fire2, Fire3, Flamethrower, Dynamite, Flare, who knows.

Why does that matter? We've only seen Kadaj use Bahamut Sin, so? Other people are capable of using it as other vampires are capable of learning spells.

Why is almost every power not usable in debates? Who said that just because other people can use its powers it cannot be used in debates? Who said that?

So? Other vampires can learn spells as well. Optional spells that have nothing to do with the story means its possible that Kain never got it in the story, the fact that Kain doesn't have it and cannot use it basically means he doesn't have it.

So unless you give me proof he has it, my point stands.

You get DIALOGUE for EVERYTHING in Blood Omen, its just how the game style is, theres no text.

Your just repeating yourself now because you fail to provide any evidence.

Facts are facts, Kain beat him by cutting up some tenticles and stabbing him in the eye a bunch of times, EG hasn't done anything impressive, sorry but its true, unless you can show me (which i know you wont)

optional spells are not 100% canon, unless you can provide me evidence he actually got it in the plot, the fact is its never heard of again suggests that he never got it.

.. a cinematic is a movie file that plays, no matter what that movie file will play and that movie will show him with that weapon, so that weapon MUST be in the cinematic which means he MUST have it.

No, theres no proof that Kain went through the plot gaining every single item/spell in the entire game, just as theres no proof Cloud went through the FF7 adventure gaining every single item in the game as well.

He has a dialogue describing the spell he acquires, just like any other optional spell, it has nothing to do with the story.

Uhh why the hell would he do that, he's Sephiroth.

.. That makes little to no sense, your just trying to add in "reality warp" in there to make them seem powerful, they're just simply using sorcery ok?

I can say the same and be like "I used my lighter to cause the REALITY WARPING of the toy soldier, see! the Soldier is warping into mush!"

Kain has never soul ripped anyone in the entire plot, Pyron speedblitz' the entire planet from lightyears away, and the planet goes bye along with EG and Kain.

Lol you've givin me ZERO proof, please go on and attempt at telling me where you've proved something.

LOL do you even know what "Not moving your body, just your arm" looks like? So i'm guessing you think that when a boxer throws a Hook punch, they don't move their body at all right? His knees are bent, and he is putting weight in his back leg, then he springs at him stabbing him.

Asking for evidence is not downplaying anything, you failing to provide me with some is.

Do you know what suggest means? The source [b]does not say "It doesn't say whether it comes from the dual hound" <-- thats a whole different phrase

"Its not suggested that you do drugs" means you shouldnt do drugs

"Its not suggested that you party a lot" means you shouldnt party lots

"Its not suggested, despite how often people think so, that it has anything to do with his Dual Hound" means it doesn't have anything to do with his dual hound despite the fact that some people think that. [/B]

Problem is they actualyl do in the game have an interchangable system, its not just possible, it happens and even worse its selected by the player and most of the materia have zero in-universe text about them as well, its all gameplay.

No it doesnt have to do with the actual main storyline, its imediatley part of kains story however, him gaining it, when he says hes got it....simple..

The voice is the main character gaining a power, exactley like a cutscene when Dante claims he gains a weapon and uses it, the fact that the player is not in control of what Kain says then means that its just as canon as a cutscene because the player is not in control of the character then either.

Fire spells dont look like explosions, the guys have 10 between them, theres not a cats chance in hell that their all Fire spells, ive seen fire spells and they dont just look like explosions fired out of your arm, the fact that theres no other materia other than blasts like that one and that creature makes it obvious that if theres no a more recent version that has canon usage of these powers, their non-canon AND retconned to just being blasts.

Learning powers and spells that weve not seen them in the game do so thus its irrelvent whether they can or not, but simply add this to myfirst point, they all tie in

You cannot use interchangable items that are not unique to a character in debates, just like items characters in the game get, characters gain access to only their own items ,not other peoples.

No its not, because their part of the story as soon as Kain in-character says so, if he said something like "press A and fire Spirit death", thats gameplay but he makes them part of the story when he talks of gaining it. If you had a line of script for Kain, you dont just put a line through the bits you dont like, thats what your trying to do now.

Your point is destroyed because Kain himself says he gains it, Kain>>(infnitely) Terry unfortatley for you.

Thats a copout, your calling it gamestyle? okie so DMC gamestyle is using cinematics to show off weapons, but their still not canon? your points are so full of bias and rubbish...as soon as kain speaks of them in-character, their his.

Your just repating yourself because you know ive already given the evidence, you simply dont want to concede, youll disapear in a week and not reply to my last post most likely instead of conceding because yo know ime right.

yeh, not using the Masurmane or the buster sword though was it? he was using the superior Soul reaver empowered with so many enchantments and powers that its ability for damaging the EG was in itself incredible, the main thing is, they are not the facts, in gamepaly he cut up some tentacles and the eye however in teh actual story, all we know is that he defeated the EG inside the citadel, not to mention EG has shown he can instantly regenrate his tentcales AND multiply them.

Their part of the plot as soon as he speaks of them..

And Kains dialogue is a speech file that plays when he gains the spells. That dialogue will play and Kain will always say he gained the spell, no matter what.

There is proof, Cloud doesnt give a storyline example of what it is and how the items he gains are part of the game unvierse in general, Kain has his own speech on what the power is and how its relevent in person, ive played FF games, all it says is "you gained Phoenoix downx2" or something like that.

Ime adding reality warp because their warping reality, your simply denying it because it doesnt exactley say "reality warping", but changing reality from normal creatures to alternat beings is warping reality from what it should be.

Youve already tried that one, realities rules specify that that soldier would melt because the solid reaching a certain temperature will turn to a liquid due to density, wheras theres no scientific reason that the reality of those beings would have to be changed to diffrent forms.

what planet? Nosgoth? as soon as he gets within the immutable timeline he will disintegrate so no......

Ive proven Kains spells are part of the story by showing you his dialogue that makes them part of the games universe, thats my proof, thats all I need, wheres your evidence for your claims?

He doesnt put weight on his back leg, it was already there like that before he launches himself because he turned around to see Moebius/Raziel, he didnt launch himself at all through any physical means at least.

Ive provided more evidence than you, your only evidence is concerning kains speed which is not evidence, its simpyl the video I provided you with ages ago which I am also using at the same time, your simply denying what ime saying about it becauyse for some reason you belive Kain is somehow "springing" along 4/5 meters in a split second just because he moves his arm back for striking.

Suggests mean exactley what it says, its a suggestion, nothing has to suggest to determine whether he used the duel hound for speed or not, then again nothing suggests he is not using the duel hand, its a double standard.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Problem is they actualyl do in the game have an interchangable system, its not just possible, it happens and even worse its selected by the player and most of the materia have zero in-universe text about them as well, its all gameplay.

All that system has nothing to do with it, the bottom line is Materia can be used by people, as spells can be learned by vampires.

No it doesnt have to do with the actual main storyline, its imediatley part of kains story however, him gaining it, when he says hes got it....simple..

The voice is the main character gaining a power, exactley like a cutscene when Dante claims he gains a weapon and uses it, the fact that the player is not in control of what Kain says then means that its just as canon as a cutscene because the player is not in control of the character then either.

Fire spells dont look like explosions, the guys have 10 between them, theres not a cats chance in hell that their all Fire spells, ive seen fire spells and they dont just look like explosions fired out of your arm, the fact that theres no other materia other than blasts like that one and that creature makes it obvious that if theres no a more recent version that has canon usage of these powers, their non-canon AND retconned to just being blasts.

Ret-conned to being blasts? Sorry but, are you stupid? Do you even know what ret-conned means? If it was retconned then there should be an explaination saying that "White and Black materia were not really materia" and a bunch of other things to explain all the events of FF7 and the "materia" that have been in the storyline like the giant materias, etc. plus the fact that there was materia in DoC which happens AFTER AC, and all the guides that explain about materia and the different ypes of materia,

Haha retconned just because YOU (who haven't even played any of the games) can't find any similar materia of the one on the roof, when there are thousands of materia on the planet (even ones that have never been shown) and theres TONS that look like that.

-Continued from last post

Learning powers and spells that weve not seen them in the game do so thus its irrelvent whether they can or not, but simply add this to myfirst point, they all tie in

You cannot use interchangable items that are not unique to a character in debates, just like items characters in the game get, characters gain access to only their own items ,not other peoples.

All other optional spells/materia/items have to be proven that the character actually obtained it in the plot before it can be used.

No its not, because their part of the story as soon as Kain in-character says so, if he said something like "press A and fire Spirit death", thats gameplay but he makes them part of the story when he talks of gaining it. If you had a line of script for Kain, you dont just put a line through the bits you dont like, thats what your trying to do now.

Text/dialogue/voice for optional items/materia/spells make no difference.

Your point is destroyed because Kain himself says he gains it, Kain>>(infnitely) Terry unfortatley for you.

Thats a copout, your calling it gamestyle? okie so DMC gamestyle is using cinematics to show off weapons, but their still not canon? your points are so full of bias and rubbish...as soon as kain speaks of them in-character, their his.

Like ive said before, not all the voices you hear are plot canon, you hear "help me help me kind sir" like probably 5000 times throughout the game, its just the BO has ZERO text and just voices, so if you gain a optional spell, of course it'll describe it with a voice.

Your just repating yourself because you know ive already given the evidence, you simply dont want to concede, youll disapear in a week and not reply to my last post most likely instead of conceding because yo know ime right.

yeh, not using the Masurmane or the buster sword though was it? he was using the superior Soul reaver empowered with so many enchantments and powers that its ability for damaging the EG was in itself incredible, the main thing is, they are not the facts, in gamepaly he cut up some tentacles and the eye however in teh actual story, all we know is that he defeated the EG inside the citadel, not to mention EG has shown he can instantly regenrate his tentcales AND multiply them.

So those tenticles get chopped up like butter, its fact that he can be defeated by getting stabbed in the eye enough times.

Their part of the plot as soon as he speaks of them..

Player1: Plays beats BO, 3 times every single time he only got some of the optional spells

Player2: Got most of the optional spells

Does that make Player2's story canon? No, neither of them could be, player1's could be, no one will ever know, optional spells aren't guaranteed to be actually part of the plot, Cloud might've got Knights of the Round, he might have got master summon, he might have not got any of them, we'll never know

Unless the optional things are proven to have gotten obtained in the actual plot, we cannot assume it has been, but all we know for sure is Spirit Death was never heard of or spoken about,, or used in any of the sequals or used in the entire plot, so that has to mean something.

And Kains dialogue is a speech file that plays when he gains the spells. That dialogue will play and Kain will always say he gained the spell, no matter what.

There is proof, Cloud doesnt give a storyline example of what it is and how the items he gains are part of the game unvierse in general, Kain has his own speech on what the power is and how its relevent in person, ive played FF games, all it says is "you gained Phoenoix downx2" or something like that.

Ime adding reality warp because their warping reality, your simply denying it because it doesnt exactley say "reality warping", but changing reality from normal creatures to alternat beings is warping reality from what it should be.

Youve already tried that one, realities rules specify that that soldier would melt because the solid reaching a certain temperature will turn to a liquid due to density, wheras theres no scientific reason that the reality of those beings would have to be changed to diffrent forms.

what planet? Nosgoth? as soon as he gets within the immutable timeline he will disintegrate so no......

Ive proven Kains spells are part of the story by showing you his dialogue that makes them part of the games universe, thats my proof, thats all I need, wheres your evidence for your claims?

He doesnt put weight on his back leg, it was already there like that before he launches himself because he turned around to see Moebius/Raziel, he didnt launch himself at all through any physical means at least.

Ive provided more evidence than you, your only evidence is concerning kains speed which is not evidence, its simpyl the video I provided you with ages ago which I am also using at the same time, your simply denying what ime saying about it becauyse for some reason you belive Kain is somehow "springing" along 4/5 meters in a split second just because he moves his arm back for striking.

Suggests mean exactley what it says, its a suggestion, nothing has to suggest to determine whether he used the duel hound for speed or not, then again nothing suggests he is not using the duel hand, its a double standard.