Pyron Vs God kratos, kain , Sparda

Originally posted by Terryc250
Umm no.. I've already explained to you, Kain having dialogue description for an [b]optional spell doesn't change the fact that its optional.

Actually there is dialogue in a few materia that is non-canon to the story, they're optional materia called "Master Magic, Master Summon, Master Command" the master materia's, it gives the player every single materia, but this was never obtained in the actual PLOT storyline, and there is infact Dialogue, first there is Dialogue for getting the Earth Harp, then after you give the Earth Harp to some old guy he'll say "OH! It's the Earth Harp! Wanna trade it for some Master Materia?" "I'm not bein' stingy either! I'll give you all three of 'em" "How about it?" Then Cloud trades it with him and gets the Master Materia.

No its the fact that its possible to NOT obtain it, if the player doesn't have to obtain it, kain doesn't have to obtain it, having dialogue for it makes no difference, everything suggests that Kain did NOT obtain it.

What does interchangeable have anything to do with anything? Materia IS canon, the optionals are all a MAYBE, because of the fact that Cloud/Co may not of obtained it, or mightve obtained it, same thing with Kains spells, theyre optional, he mightve obtained it, or he might not of.

He used the necromancer as part of the spells description, does it change the fact that its optional? No.

Its still optional, *******

What does having a description have anything to do with it? You really think theres going to be silence if Kain obtains something like that? It still doesn't change the fact that its optional, and theres no evidence that canon story kain actually acquired it. Like i said everything points ot him not obtaining it.

What are you talking about? Kain never soul ripping anyone in the entire LOK Story is STORYLINE, not gameplay. Kain gaining that optional spell IS GAMEPLAY rofl. I think you're confused BT.

Kain giving a description of it is only if he obtains it, doesnt change the fact that its optional and he might not have obtained it, again the developers aren't going to put in a spell with silence in the game, of course theres a description for every spell, but the spell is still optional and theres still a question if he obtained it in the canon story or not, again i've showed you an example of materia having dialogue for it, yet it was never obtained in the actual canon story.

Umm, you haven't given me proof? You've just been repeating the "Kain gives a description" which i've been telling you does not change the fact that its optional, yet you just keep repeating "KAin has a desription!!!" ok cool, it doesn't change the fact that its still optional, which means it couldve been gotten or it could not have been gotten.

The negative lifestream is just the lifestream with j-cells, thus under Sephiroth influence.

The lifestream by FACT, is the source of life,energy,power,magic

In AC, Sephiroth created the SHM Spirit bodies out of the Negative lifestream, thus giving them life, the SHM (who have a bit of control over it being sephiroths remnants) used the negative lifestream used the negative lifestream as magic in AC, having j-cells in it does not mean it loses its power. [/B]

And ive explained the opposite, only ime correct unless your saying a players decision determines canon?

No ime talking about in-unvierse plot for the materia like Kain gives for the spells, metioning other beings in the universe or how they were made in the games universe are likely canon reasons, some old man who is not the main character giving you items is not proof...

player decision, your using gameplay AND player decisions...how sad..

No kains spelsl are definite, he tells us he gains them...Kain>>your assumptions and materia insecurities.

you dont have any points under *******

although I have under **** so ill use this.

Kain gaining it is not gameplay, since his voice imediatley turns it into canon, your getting confused of whats gameplay and what is not.

Show me the lifestream fact and show me Sephiroth can control all its powers...

Originally posted by Burning thought
But their not dead, they have just as less resistance to having their souls ripped out as when their alive, its not like Raziel is breaking defences, his sword goes straight through them anyway to take the soul or he just rips it out with his hand....your talking gameplay again.

Plus the fact that Raziel cannot do that ingame, and plus the fact that raziel has never ripped a perfectly healthy humans soul.

It works the same way as how Kain has to injure his opponents before he can suck their blood.

No but heres what you dont understand, Nosgoths timeline is within itself Immutable, no one in Nosgoth can change the timeline, Marvels timeline is not immutable..., this point will be known as $
Marvels timeline is immutable to any non-marvel character, thats Common Sense. <-- this point will be known as CS

Marvels entire universe is immutable to any non-marvel character

FF7's universe is immutable to any non-FF7 character, this includes their timelines, etc.

[quote]
W8 a min, first your not the thread starter, how far tehy start away from eachother is not under your control, who says he is galaxies away?

***? you dont have any recorded points under that....

No it means ive made a point earlier that covers this point, read my posts, anyone with half a mind could realise ime using those to copy points....

Having Kains dialogue means everything, the optional part means nothing because thats a player decision which is not canon, how can you not understand this?

Having dialogue means nothing, like i've showed you, there are optional crap in FF7 with dialogue, does that make it 100% guaranteed to be in the plot story? No

Because the bottom line still remains, you only get that dialogue IF its chosen, which means its not 100% guaranteed that it will be chosen, theres still an "IF"

yeh he can use spells, i asked for proof he went and got them the same way as Kain or that their the same as kains spells....also ime talming about optional player used in-game stuff, like materia is chosen by players to use on other characters

Materia IS canon though, which of the optional ones are gotten in the actual canon plot are a question, just like which of the optional spells are actually got in the actual plot BO storyline.

Its nothing to do with them being optional, unique means the character gains them because their part of their unique abilities, since their not unique, you cannot use materia...

Spells are obtained, they're optional, nothing suggests that kain went and got spirit death, having dialogue means nothing, which i've already proven.

Youve told me? wow damn, my debates lost becauyse you disagree? ...youve got no evidence, ime simply retelling you my opinion, only mine actually has kain speaking and your using player decisions to prop your falling argument.

You on the other hand can not give me ANY evidence that Kain has it, all you can say is "Kain has a description for it!!" which i've told you means nothing.

Easily because theres not many, I dont even need to refer to a post, all of yours are silly half the time, everyone who actually reads your posts knows your a massive gameplay reader and hugely bias to Sephiroth.

But hell, you think Kain can beat ANYONE, when he has like ZERO feats.

I dont know what they are Terry, hopefully the game tells you later?

No, half of the materia are uncanon anyway, thus those already shown as canon are canon, if Meteor is a materia fine, but all the usual ones are all blasts as shown in AC which shows what materia really are.

Nothing poits to him not getting it apart from gameplay decisions from players...thats your canon? ....no, kains speech tells us he gains it if the player chooses something its irrelvent.

actually the spell being optional is relevent.

"perhaps perhaps" well perhaps their all retconned as it shows, all your guessing is useless, if it tells us its Sin bahumaht as weak as it is then thats proof....

Originally posted by Terryc250
The body is connected to the soul, if the body is is dead, the soul must leave the body, going by logic, if the body is on the brink of death and weakened, the soul should be easier to extract.

Plus the fact that Raziel cannot do that ingame, and plus the fact that raziel has never ripped a perfectly healthy humans soul.

It works the same way as how Kain has to injure his opponents before he can suck their blood.

If not, he flies galaxies away, you really think anyone in nosgoth is fast enough to catch him? What is Kain going to do teleport infront of him? He'll get crushed.

Wel I don't know what "recorded points" you have for your meaningless stars either, its probably just some repeated junk i've already replied to anyway, and so if you aren't going to reply properly, i'll take it as a concession, thanx.

I've replied to all your repeated crap already, to me, your ***'s = a concession.

The fact that its optional is canon.

Having dialogue means nothing, like i've showed you, there are optional crap in FF7 with dialogue, does that make it 100% guaranteed to be in the plot story? No

Because the bottom line still remains, you only get that dialogue IF its chosen, which means its not 100% guaranteed that it will be chosen, theres still an "IF"

.. Is there even any other way of getting spells? You go to a place, and obtain the spells, isn't that how spells are obtained?

Materia IS canon though, which of the optional ones are gotten in the actual canon plot are a question, just like which of the optional spells are actually got in the actual plot BO storyline.

And Clouds Ultima Weapon is unique to him as well, it doesn't mean it was actually obtained in the canon story.

Spells are obtained, they're optional, nothing suggests that kain went and got spirit death, having dialogue means nothing, which i've already proven.

I've given you facts, you are just in denial.

You on the other hand can not give me ANY evidence that Kain has it, all you can say is "Kain has a description for it!!" which i've told you means nothing.

Im a hugely bias to Sephiroth? When have i ever said Sephiroth would beat someone out of his league? I'd say Sephiroth would beat people like Gouki, Ryu, Kain, and other people on those level.

But hell, you think Kain can beat ANYONE, when he has like ZERO feats.

So then until they explain everything, Materia hasn't been "retconned into blasts"

We don't know which ones are obtained in the actual story, we see a huge trunk full of materia, so obviously the part obtained quite a bit, but when i played FF7, i had like 100 different materia, some he could've gotten the same as me, some couldve been different.

Umm, him not ever using it in the story, him not having it in any of the 4 sequals, him never mentioning it or hearing anything about it, pretty much sums up that he doesn't have it.

actually the spell being [b]optional is relevent.

and perhaps the entire planet was retconned into just midgar, the big globe is now just a flat city, because thats all we see in AC right? [/B]

NOt logic at all since Raziels sword swallows the soul as soon as it goes "through" the being, this weakening logic of yours is on the same level as enemies surviving 5 hits from the reaver when their human....

No one has to catch him, he needs to build momentum to hit lightspeed, before then he could be riped, frozen in time, etc etc

Tehy are my reply, its better than simply repeating everything ive already said, so i may as well use stars because your not going to make any real counter points, since you have no counter proof yet.

What? lol, how is the fact its optional its canon? now your really slipping...the option is a players option, the player is not canon genius...

What have you shown me from FF7 that has in-unvierse dialogue? certainly not from the main character either.

yes youve told me, and ive told you the opposite, waht logic dictates a player option is canon to the storyline? its not at all, but kains speech which is Kain himself speaking regardless of the players decision is somehow uncanon? .....

Not anyone, and you dont need feats, you need capabilities, Kain has all those powers and spells thus he is capable of them ,thus he would perform 100% in a battle which puts him on a level far above Sephiroth, many people agree.

Well who knows, for Kain it is, in canon ime sure you dont pick up a floating little card in and learn a spell from it though in the in-universe canon.

is Clouds Ultima weapon mentioned as part of the story or universe?

The globe has evidence otherwise since the globe is part of it, but most of the materia are not shown as canon before AC shows the little blobs that shoot only blasts.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And ive explained the opposite, only ime correct unless your saying a players decision determines canon?

No ime talking about in-unvierse plot for the materia like Kain gives for the spells, metioning other beings in the universe or how they were made in the games universe are likely canon reasons, some old man who is not the main character giving you items is not proof...

Master Materia is optional, which gives it a possibility that it was never obtained in the story, having dialogue means nothing.

player decision, your using gameplay AND player decisions...how sad..

if its possible for a player to miss a spell, its possible for kain to miss a spell.

No kains spelsl are definite, he tells us he gains them...Kain>>your assumptions and materia insecurities.

you dont have any points under *******
although I have under **** so ill use this.

Kain gaining it is not gameplay, since his voice imediatley turns it into canon, your getting confused of whats gameplay and what is not.

Show me the lifestream fact and show me Sephiroth can control all its powers... [/B]

Power: Lifestream disintegrating Meteor

Energy: Shinra using the lifestream as a source to give energy to Midgar powering everyones homes,etc

Life: Creating Kadaj,Loz,Yazoo.

Magic: Materia tapping into the lifestreams power for magic

We only see Sephiroth for 10 minutes in AC and we wasn't using any of his powers, but going by common sense:

Kadaj,Loz,Yazoo(who control a small amount of the lifestream) used it as magic summoning the shadow creeps, Sephiroth created the spirit bodies Kadaj,Loz,Lazoo out of the lifestream, with a gesture of his hand he was able to cover the skies of midgar and beyond, he is the new evolution of jenova, thus he has full control over J-cells and whatever it influences.

Originally posted by Burning thought
NOt logic at all since Raziels sword swallows the soul as soon as it goes "through" the being, this weakening logic of yours is on the same level as enemies surviving 5 hits from the reaver when their human....

No one has to catch him, he needs to build momentum to hit lightspeed, before then he could be riped, frozen in time, etc etc

Tehy are my reply, its better than simply repeating everything ive already said, so i may as well use stars because your not going to make any real counter points, since you have no counter proof yet.

What? lol, how is the fact its optional its canon? now your really slipping...the option is a players option, the player is not canon genius...

The Player plays as Kain, if the player has an option of whether to go and obtain an optional spell, Kain (the character) does to, hence the word "optional"

So unless you reply with evidence that Kain actually went and obtained the spell, don't come repeating yourself with arguements i've already countered.

What have you shown me from FF7 that has in-unvierse dialogue? certainly not from the main character either.

Another example is, before you go fight Sephiroth, you can fly on the ship, if you go and fly back to another continent, and talk to some towns people they will talk about Meteor in the sky, does that mean Cloud actually went and flew back to the town on the other continent? Most likely not.

The bottom line is these are all optional.

yes youve told me, and ive told you the opposite, waht logic dictates a player option is canon to the storyline? its not at all, but kains speech which is Kain himself speaking regardless of the players decision is somehow uncanon? .....

Of course there will be dialogue for optional things as well, you think all optional things will be silent? It still doesn't change the fact that its optional.

Not anyone, and you dont need feats, you need capabilities, Kain has all those powers and spells thus he is capable of them ,thus he would perform 100% in a battle which puts him on a level far above Sephiroth, many people agree.

If he actually used them, then it would be a feat, but hes never soul ripped anyone, so that must mean something, plus that "capability" is an optional "capability" as well, so that must mean something too.

Well who knows, for Kain it is, in canon ime sure you dont pick up a floating little card in and learn a spell from it though in the in-universe canon.

is Clouds Ultima weapon mentioned as part of the story or universe?

The globe has evidence otherwise since the globe is part of it, but most of the materia are not shown as canon before AC shows the little blobs that shoot only blasts.

Originally posted by Terryc250
If the player has the decision to go and obtain the spell or not to go and obtain the spell, Kain has the same decision as well, because well, you're playing as Kain correct?

Cloud rarely ever talks in the game, its all people talking to him, even obtaining canon materia, Cloud doesn't say anything, him gaining the master materia was no different then him going and obtaining the black materia, its just people talking to Cloud, the only difference is master materia is Optional while the black materia is not, and the black materia ties into the story which makes it canon

Master Materia is optional, which gives it a possibility that it was never obtained in the story, having dialogue means nothing.

Haha your really picking at strings here, If a player gets a decision, it means Kain gets a decision as well.

if its possible for a player to miss a spell, its possible for kain to miss a spell.

He only gives a description [b]IF he gains them, and theres a POSSIBILITY that he DOESN'T gain them, hence the word, OPTIONAL, what part of that can't you understand?

If you can't reply properly, i'll take it as a concession, thank you.

You only get the description IF you get the spell, not everyone gets the spell, its possible for the player, and its possible for kain to NOT obtain the spell.

Even though there are some quotes in game i'm lazy to find them so i'll take some examples off the top of my head

Power: Lifestream disintegrating Meteor

Energy: Shinra using the lifestream as a source to give energy to Midgar powering everyones homes,etc

Life: Creating Kadaj,Loz,Yazoo.

Magic: Materia tapping into the lifestreams power for magic

We only see Sephiroth for 10 minutes in AC and we wasn't using any of his powers, but going by common sense:

Kadaj,Loz,Yazoo(who control a small amount of the lifestream) used it as magic summoning the shadow creeps, Sephiroth created the spirit bodies Kadaj,Loz,Lazoo out of the lifestream, with a gesture of his hand he was able to cover the skies of midgar and beyond, he is the new evolution of jenova, thus he has full control over J-cells and whatever it influences. [/B]

yes were "playing" as kain, but in canon Kain is not played at all, its not Kains decision, its the players, thus irrelvent. The option means nothing, the words Kain has in-unvierse are.

But the Black materia by the sounds of it has canon speech for it or canon tie ins, materia does not, wheras Kains spells have Kain as the tie in when he speaks of them.

No it doesnt, its not Kains decision, its the players, the player is not the real kain, the Real kain wouldnt leave things untouched anyway so down to canon character personality, Kain would not realistically not gain a power/spell and it shows us he wouldnt becaue he has dialogue in-universe for it.

Not at all, the player to miss a spell? your saying now humans are just as intelligent and in the same league as beings they play as in fiction? what nonsense, Kain is his own being in the canon, player decisions mean nothing.

Ive taken all your posts as concession, simply repeating without any hard evidence is meaningless. especialy when your known for using gameplay and uncanon nonsense.

Its not possible for kain to miss a spell because he doesnt, he has his dialogue for gaining it, thus he gains it.

Not everyone gets the spell is irrelvent, thats a player decision, which is not canon or proportionate to the story, kain speaking is.

Yeh, if I get the spell i get teh description, so? so my actions mean something on the canon of LOK? nonsense, Kain speaks eithrer way, let me help you understand, if you take away all the irrelvent, uncanon nonsense your blundering about like gameplay such as Player options, all your left with is Kains dialogue which is in-universe canon.

All Sephiroth has shown is hes able to move the Neg lifestream, nothing indicates he can actually control its properties and everything that comes from it, nothing points to him being able to control its magic, its properties etc, this is one of those FF fanboy assumptions you see bouncing about forums now and then, its far less evidential than Scion Kain.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Well if his sword rips through the flesh, then sure, but i don't believe Raziel can simply open up his scarf and suck souls from perfectly healthy beings.

Its not like he's going to start off slow as a turtle then work his way up, he's most likely atleast fast enough to get away, he is a cosmic being after all.

Uh the thing is, you haven't given me ANY proof, you've jjust been repeating the same arguement i've smashed, DIALOGUE means NOTHING as i've already shown you, its the fact that its optional.

Ok try to comprehend this, read slower, open your eyes a bit wider.

The Player plays as Kain, if the player has an option of whether to go and obtain an optional spell, Kain (the character) does to, hence the word "optional"

So unless you reply with evidence that Kain actually went and obtained the spell, don't come repeating yourself with arguements i've already countered.

What is "in-universe" dialogue? Like i've said the main character RARELY speaks, its always people talking to him,

Another example is, before you go fight Sephiroth, you can fly on the ship, if you go and fly back to another continent, and talk to some towns people they will talk about Meteor in the sky, does that mean Cloud actually went and flew back to the town on the other continent? Most likely not.

The bottom line is these are all optional.

Kain only speaks and gives a description IF he went and obtained the optional spell in the actual plot, having dialogue for it makes no difference.

Of course there will be dialogue for optional things as well, you think all optional things will be silent? It still doesn't change the fact that its optional.

So Kain has all these capabilities but he's never used them in the story? Riiight..

If he actually used them, then it would be a feat, but hes never soul ripped anyone, so that must mean something, plus that "capability" is an optional "capability" as well, so that must mean something too.

Well he obtains it somehow, maybe its a little manuel that teaches him how to do the spell.

Its apart of Ultimate WEAPON, the giant WEAPON that does get unleashed, in the canon story.

The "globe" evidence was in FF7, in AC everything was in midgar, so going by your logic the globe is retconned into just a city.

hes a cosmic lump of energy, how does that help him? he does start of fairly slow, not as a tortoise but not lightspeed or anything close.

Ive shown you Kains speech, which is undeniably canon, the speech is from Kain himself in-universe, there is no way you could have smashed any of my arguments because A: youve got no counter evidence at all, simply your claims which mean nothing by themselves tbh and B. your claims are poor in general because your using gameplay and player decisions, neither of which actually affect canon.....

no, the player himself is not Kain himself, your only playing in the game as Kain ,but Kains option in the actual canon is obvious that he gains them because he has the speech for them, the option is the players alone who are not Kain either, your trying to basically say the Player is Kain himself now....

You mean my arguments using non-gameplay logic comapred to your gameplay whoring and baseless claims.

The dialogue makes all the diffrence because in the end the option itself is uncanon, the dialogue is....
the option is a players gameplay illusion of choice, in the canon Kain doesnt have choice because the script writers of LOk storyline have already made the story regardess of what the Player chooses, get your head round this.

Kain doesnt need to use them in teh story, half the time he is far beyond most beings anyway so he wouldnt waste it,it simply isnt worth doing just so a few goons in a debate can bring it up, LOK is not like comic books.

In-universe dialogue is speech spoken from the point of view of the LOK universe/characters, if Kain speaks of beings within the world, then he is speaking from a canon prespective, not a gameplay one, a gameplay dialogue would be "press A to cast B and cause 20 dmg"

Maybe but now your guessing, either way there is no lack of uniqueness for kain and his powers, the spells and items you gain from Materia are chosen by the player and are items overall making them non unique, so even if every Materia was proven canon, none of the characters could actually use them unless specified in a thread because their not unique basic equipment for that character.

yes but that doesnt make the Weapon the character gains canon, only if its canonically said it is a piece that Cloud gains then it would be.

No because canon previously has shown thats not what teh world is made of, wheras most Materia dont have any canon shown for them, thus its likely they have been retconned OR they were just given gameplay names to make them seem more interesting and their actually all in the real world little blasts.

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes were "playing" as kain, but in canon Kain is not played at all, its not Kains decision, its the players, thus irrelvent. The option means nothing, the words Kain has in-unvierse are.

But the Black materia by the sounds of it has canon speech for it or canon tie ins, materia does not, wheras Kains spells have Kain as the tie in when he speaks of them.

No it doesnt, its not Kains decision, its the players, the player is not the real kain, the Real kain wouldnt leave things untouched anyway so down to canon character personality, Kain would not realistically not gain a power/spell and it shows us he wouldnt becaue he has dialogue in-universe for it.

Not at all, the player to miss a spell? your saying now humans are just as intelligent and in the same league as beings they play as in fiction? what nonsense, Kain is his own being in the canon, player decisions mean nothing.

Ive taken all your posts as concession, simply repeating without any hard evidence is meaningless. especialy when your known for using gameplay and uncanon nonsense.

You have zero evidence of Kain actually obtaining the spell in the canon storyline.

If Kain has it, why can't he use it? Why hasn't he used it? Why has he never soul ripped anyone if he can do it?

Its not possible for kain to miss a spell because he doesnt, he has his dialogue for gaining it, thus he gains it.

Not everyone gets the spell is irrelvent, thats a player decision, which is not canon or proportionate to the story, kain speaking is.

Yeh, if I get the spell i get teh description, so? so my actions mean something on the canon of LOK? nonsense, Kain speaks eithrer way, let me help you understand, if you take away all the irrelvent, uncanon nonsense your blundering about like gameplay such as Player options, all your left with is Kains dialogue which is in-universe canon.

Get it?

If Cloud got Master Materia, there would be all that dialogue from that guy, if he didn't there WOULDN'T, if the player chose to go and obtain Master Materia, he'd get all the dialogue, but Cloud in canon, did not gain master materia, and he did NOT get all that dialogue.

All Sephiroth has shown is hes able to move the Neg lifestream, nothing indicates he can actually control its properties and everything that comes from it, nothing points to him being able to control its magic, its properties etc, this is one of those FF fanboy assumptions you see bouncing about forums now and then, its far less evidential than Scion Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
hes a cosmic lump of energy, how does that help him? he does start of fairly slow, not as a tortoise but not lightspeed or anything close.

Ive shown you Kains speech, which is undeniably canon, the speech is from Kain himself in-universe, there is no way you could have smashed any of my arguments because A: youve got no counter evidence at all, simply your claims which mean nothing by themselves tbh and B. your claims are poor in general because your using gameplay and player decisions, neither of which actually affect canon.....

The more you keep telling yourself that, it still won't change the fact that its optional, if you really want it to be apart of the storyline, go email the developers and beg them to remake BO1 with the spell being mandatory, and tell them to have Kain actually being able to soul rip someone, because he's never done it.

no, the player himself is not Kain himself, your only playing in the game as Kain ,but Kains option in the actual canon is obvious that he gains them because he has the speech for them, the option is the players alone who are not Kain either, your trying to basically say the Player is Kain himself now....

If its possible for the player to NOT obtain a spell, does that mean Kain MUST get the spell? No, it means Kain could possibly have not obtained the spell as well.

You mean my arguments using non-gameplay logic comapred to your gameplay whoring and baseless claims.

The dialogue makes all the diffrence because in the end the option itself is uncanon, the dialogue is....
the option is a players gameplay illusion of choice, in the canon Kain doesnt have choice because the script writers of LOk storyline have already made the story regardess of what the Player chooses, get your head round this.

I've showed you some examples already of optional dialogue, you're just really in denial.

Kain doesnt need to use them in teh story, half the time he is far beyond most beings anyway so he wouldnt waste it,it simply isnt worth doing just so a few goons in a debate can bring it up, LOK is not like comic books.

He'd rather waste his energy sword fighting people then simple "soul ripping" them.

In-universe dialogue is speech spoken from the point of view of the LOK universe/characters, if Kain speaks of beings within the world, then he is speaking from a canon prespective, not a gameplay one, a gameplay dialogue would be "press A to cast B and cause 20 dmg"

Does that change the fact that its optional? No. its optional dialogue, theres lots of in-world optional dialogue in FF7, does that mean Cloud actually obtained Master Materia? Or KOTR? No.

Maybe but now your guessing, either way there is no lack of uniqueness for kain and his powers, the spells and items you gain from Materia are chosen by the player and are items overall making them non unique, so even if every Materia was proven canon, none of the characters could actually use them unless specified in a thread because their not unique basic equipment for that character.

yes but that doesnt make the Weapon the character gains canon, only if its canonically said it is a piece that Cloud gains then it would be.

No because canon previously has shown thats not what teh world is made of, wheras most Materia dont have any canon shown for them, thus its likely they have been retconned OR they were just given gameplay names to make them seem more interesting and their actually all in the real world little blasts. [/B]

It explains in the FF7 game what materia is, like 5x throughout the games, it even explains in the novels what materia is, it showed Meteor, Holy, it showed summons, it showed magic materias, command materias, ALL in canon.

The bottom line is, you're judging something just by seeing something in AC, you did not know what a few materia's were so you assume that materia has been retconned into blasts, which makes literally ZERO sense at all.

id like to counter the whole optional spell crap, but that's all im saying..

the fact that the spell is optional is irrelevant, thequote is still canon as the spell (as well as magic in general) is part of a vampires evolution..to prove this, vorador had learned spell in question, as well as most of the other spells kain learned and maintained his ability to use it for thousands of years..as players could not control vorador on BO1 or any LOK game, the spell could not have been optional for him and therefore the quote made by kain is completely canon..

Exactley Madmel, Tery does not seem to understand how the fact something is optional means its only optional for the player ,the canon aspect is Kains voice and in-unvierse description, basically that what both of your posts crash down to terry, your using gameplay over and over, ill answer the parts of your posts that are not simply re-runs of the "optional and playerz decided whats canon!" nonsense.

Originally posted by Terryc250

Did you not read what i wrote? Loz, Kadaj, Yazoo used it as MAGIC, they're just remnants of Sephiroth, thats why they were able to use a BIT of its power, because they control a bit of the j-cells influences, Sephiroth IS Jenova, he control over it entirely, thats why he was able to cover beyond midgar with it, thats why he was able to create the spirit bodies in the first place, thats proof right there, whether you want to be in denial about it or not is your choice, but the fact still remains.

proof? not at all, the remnants simply used a masively limited array of powers like shadow beings...that doesnt prove anything to the negative lifestream

All the Neg lifestream has shown is it can smother the area, other than that its not destroyed anything and Sephiroth hasnt used powers directly from the lifestream, besides the games have shown Materia is the only way to channel lifestream into powers...

Originally posted by Terryc250

I've given you the facts numorous times, your just being in denial BT, no wonder no one wants to debate with you over Kain, you won't even accept actual facts unless its a positive for Kain.

Right, he'd rather make himself look like a fool like when he first encountered Moebius in defiance and got owned.

He'd rather waste his energy sword fighting people then simple "soul ripping" them.

It explains in the FF7 game what materia is, like 5x throughout the games, it even explains in the novels what materia is, it showed Meteor, Holy, it showed summons, it showed magic materias, command materias, ALL in canon.

The bottom line is, you're judging something just by seeing something in AC, you did not know what a few materia's were so you assume that materia has been retconned into blasts, which makes literally ZERO sense at all.

No youve given me your opinions, ive given you facts on how optional nonsense by far and wide is player controlled and furthermore both are uncanon gmaeplay elements, thats a fact, you keep trying to use the opposite argument, only one of them can be fact, and imo its the one that claims Player decisions are canon thats false somehow...

He didnt make him look like anything, first the only being was Moebius so its not like his "street cred" is threatened and second he did not want to kill moebius so your statement here shows how much you know about LOK.

Waste his energy sword? wtf...

Yeh it explains what materia is, unfortunatley in AC its showed in canon that when its used you can only create blasts...

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
[b]Can despair embodied defeat Pyron? I care not what people say. In some cases, size does matter. [/B]

Originally posted by k1Lla441
most people say size doesnt matter, and your completely right. when the size difference is this big, it DOES matter. pyron owns.

When you are talking about Pyron, size matters. Besides him, it doesn't.

Originally posted by MadMel
id like to counter the whole optional spell crap, but that's all im saying..

the fact that the spell is optional is irrelevant, thequote is still canon as the spell (as well as magic in general) is part of a vampires evolution..to prove this, vorador had learned spell in question, as well as most of the other spells kain learned and maintained his ability to use it for thousands of years..as players could not control vorador on BO1 or any LOK game, the spell could not have been optional for him and therefore the quote made by kain is completely canon..

The fact remains that the spell was never used by Kain in the story, he's never soul ripped anyone, or even spoke of it in the next 4 sequals, which suggests something.

proof? not at all, the remnants simply used a masively limited array of powers like shadow beings...that doesnt prove anything to the negative lifestream

All the Neg lifestream has shown is it can smother the area, other than that its not destroyed anything and Sephiroth hasnt used powers directly from the lifestream, besides the games have shown Materia is the only way to channel lifestream into powers...

The remnants are creations by Sephiroth, from the negative lifestream, theres proof of life right there

Materia simply TAPS INTO the lifestreams power for magic.

No youve given me your opinions, ive given you facts on how optional nonsense by far and wide is player controlled and furthermore both are uncanon gmaeplay elements, thats a fact, you keep trying to use the opposite argument, only one of them can be fact, and imo its the one that claims Player decisions are canon thats false somehow...

You cannot deny this.

He didnt make him look like anything, first the only being was Moebius so its not like his "street cred" is threatened and second he did not want to kill moebius so your statement here shows how much you know about LOK.

Waste his energy sword? wtf...

Yeh it explains what materia is, unfortunatley in AC its showed in canon that when its used you can only create blasts...

Theres Magic materia, that does "blasts" of different kinds of elements, or heals.

And theres command materia, which does things like help the player in different ways.

What we see in AC is summon materia, and magic materia.

Originally posted by Terryc250

What? The shadow creeps are stated as "Summon" magic, theerefore they're using magic from the negative lifestream, theres proof of magic right there

The remnants are creations by Sephiroth, from the negative lifestream, theres proof of life right there

Materia simply TAPS INTO the lifestreams power for magic.

Its fact that if a player decides whether to obtain something or not, Kain the character has that choice as well, its totally logical.

You cannot deny this.

YouTube video
If Kain was oh so powerful with all his spells, that wouldn't have happened.

Waste his energy [b]sword fighting people dur

Let me explain to you the different kinds of materia, theres Summon materia, that summons monsters

Theres Magic materia, that does "blasts" of different kinds of elements, or heals.

And theres command materia, which does things like help the player in different ways.

What we see in AC is summon materia, and magic materia. [/B]

Its totally illogical because the Player simply isnt Kain, their "playing" as kain in the gameplay, but their not kain, their choices are not the same as Kains because they dont think the way as Kain either, i dont think I need to have this conversation since even you should realise that.

It would happen because A: most of his spells kill the opponent with a shot and he didnt want to kill Moebius anyway, ot to mention that orb on moebius staff is special, it harms both soul and heart.

yet out of 10 materia they are all exactley the same blast we see earlier only a bit larger?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its totally illogical because the Player simply isnt Kain, their "playing" as kain in the gameplay, but their not kain, their choices are not the same as Kains because they dont think the way as Kain either, i dont think I need to have this conversation since even you should realise that.

It would happen because A: most of his spells kill the opponent with a shot and he didnt want to kill Moebius anyway, ot to mention that orb on moebius staff is special, it harms both soul and heart.

So then why didn't he simply just "repel" it off?

yet out of 10 materia they are all exactley the same blast we see earlier only a bit larger? [/B]

Originally posted by Terryc250
No its totally logical, if something is optional, it means it "optional" i've told you what optional means, Kain doesn't require his optional spells, nothing suggests that he actually acquired it in the storyline, everything points to the opposite.

Why wouldn't he want to kill his opponents with "a shot"? He's going to kill them by cutting/stabbing him, might as well save him the effort?

So then why didn't he simply just "repel" it off?

What are you talking about? We saw Bolt in the church, Bahamut Sin, and then some kind of fire element magic materia's on the roof.

if somethinhg is optionl to the plauer whos actions and decisions are irrelvent to kain, false, since nothing points to him not gaining them, however him saying he actually gains them points he does, try taking away the player decisions (since their not canon) and youll be left with Kains dialogue which ofc is.

He can kill his opponents with one slash, so one shot may be less interest to him or perhaps he cba? ime not Kain so i cant tell you why, the effort would likely just be the same.

Repel? first he didnt have it active, second it takes a second to cast and he was already incapaciated and third, the power Moebius used is unkown whether its magical or otherwise.

The bolt looked almost the same but as I said out of 10 materia the two used, all of them for some reaon were apprently fire? nonsense...there prob is not 10 types of fire spell and its illogical anyway. I can ask questions like above too, youy ask why Kain doesnt do things, why didnt the two just grab a Time stop materia or something and defeat Cloud?

Originally posted by Burning thought
if somethinhg is optionl [b]to the plauer whos actions and decisions are irrelvent to kain, false, since nothing points to him not gaining them, however him saying he actually gains them points he does, try taking away the player decisions (since their not canon) and youll be left with Kains dialogue which ofc is.

If the player has a decision whether or not to attain the spell, so does Kain.

Kain would say that description IF he acquired the spell, but everything suggests that he never did acquire it.

He can kill his opponents with one slash, so one shot may be less interest to him or perhaps he cba? ime not Kain so i cant tell you why, the effort would likely just be the same.

Repel? first he didnt have it active, second it takes a second to cast and he was already incapaciated and third, the power Moebius used is unkown whether its magical or otherwise.

The bolt looked almost the same but as I said out of 10 materia the two used, all of them for some reaon were apprently fire? nonsense...there prob is not 10 types of fire spell and its illogical anyway. I can ask questions like above too, youy ask why Kain doesnt do things, why didnt the two just grab a Time stop materia or something and defeat Cloud?

Probably because they didn't have Time Stop?

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, thats if the spell is mandatory storyline spell, its still just optional dialogue, i've given you other examples of other optional dialogue.

If the player has a decision whether or not to attain the spell, so does Kain.

Kain would say that description IF he acquired the spell, but everything suggests that he never did acquire it.

But what makes you think he can slash his opponents so easily? I don't buy that he can defeat them so easily, its not like Dynasty Warriors where you maul through like 100 warriors in a second, 10 Sarafan knights would probably put up a fight against Kain.

So then why was he on the ground trying to reach for his reaver when he can just pull out one of his oh so many spells?

They didn't use all "10" of the materia, they probably both used Fire3 or something, the reason all 10 of them were showing was because both Yazoo and Loz' body were fading away due to Aeris' great gospel limit

Probably because they didn't have Time Stop?

What makes it optional is a playuers decision, not a Kain decision, thus your still using gameplay. You keep saying everything suggests, what is this everything? still you use gameplay "sigh"

So easily? he has strength higher than any man when young ,has shown to be perhaps a 40 tonner compared to the blocks he carries that are enormous, regardless of strength its a long sword shown to slice into rock in an instant anyway, sticking a sword into someone would be simply and he himself would be unharmed by sarafan weapons. 10 knights? lawlz, 1000 in an uncanon battle would do nothing. Hes too fast in general.

Prob the same reason why Sephiroth doesnt defeat Cloud or kill him once and for all when he has the chance, PIS. Mayve he cannot cast spells while under the effects of the staff. besdies didnt you just read my last post? he doenst want to kill moebius

wtf? show me this evidence, all 10 materia were glowing....simple..

still they had 10 materia, anong them they didnt have all these powers and apprently out of the god knows how many Cloud had in that box and what they had/could get their hands on they chose 10 blast attacks instead of the so many materia.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What makes it optional is a playuers decision, not a Kain decision, thus your still using gameplay. You keep saying everything suggests, what is this everything? still you use gameplay "sigh"

The story suggests he doesn't get it, think about it, why hasn't Kain soul ripped anyone? Why hasn't he ever spoke of it ever in milleniums? Why isn't he able to use it in any game after BO1?

All those are facts that you cannot deny.

So easily? he has strength higher than any man when young ,has shown to be perhaps a 40 tonner compared to the blocks he carries that are enormous, regardless of strength its a long sword shown to slice into rock in an instant anyway, sticking a sword into someone would be simply and he himself would be unharmed by sarafan weapons. 10 knights? lawlz, 1000 in an uncanon battle would do nothing. Hes too fast in general.

Thats if they stand there and let him stick it into them, if Kain could really defeat 1000, why didn't the developers make it like Dynasty Warriors where they maul through hundreds in seconds. I don't buy it BT, unless you actually show me some evidence.

Prob the same reason why Sephiroth doesnt defeat Cloud or kill him once and for all when he has the chance, PIS. Mayve he cannot cast spells while under the effects of the staff. besdies didnt you just read my last post? he doenst want to kill moebius

Did I say he was going to kill Moebius? No.

wtf? show me this evidence, all 10 materia were glowing....simple..

still they had 10 materia, anong them they didnt have all these powers and apprently out of the god knows how many Cloud had in that box and what they had/could get their hands on they chose 10 blast attacks instead of the so many materia. [/B]

They were showing because Loz' and Yazoo's bodies were fading like Kadaj's did.

We don't know what materia's Cloud had in that chest.