Pyron Vs God kratos, kain , Sparda

Originally posted by Terryc250
-Continued from last post

Going by that logic, spells are not unique to Kain so can can't use spells? No, its if the character actually got the item/spell in their story then they can use it, if Vincent really gained his proto-type materia to control his limit Chaos in the story, then he gets to use it in debates, if Dante really got the Yamoto(vergils weapon) in the story (which he did) then it could be used in a debate.

All other optional spells/materia/items have to be proven that the character actually obtained it in the plot before it can be used.

Its not part of the story, if player1 beat BO, 3 times, and he never obtained that optional spell then its not part of his story is it? However spells like Energy Bolt that was needed in the story, and EVERYONE who beats BO had to obtain it, then it is part of the story.

Text/dialogue/voice for optional items/materia/spells make no difference.

You have a problem comprehending things i see, optional things are optional, people who beat BO don't get it all the time, its not part of the plot, sorry BT but you have to face the truth some day.

... You have trouble reading? I said the cinematics ARE canon, cinematics are just movies played once you reach a certain point, that movie never changes, the weapon in the characters hand never changes, and the beating the game that cinematic HAS to play because its part of the plot, which makes part of the plot = part of the story which makes the weapon in the characters hand, CANON.

Like ive said before, not all the voices you hear are plot canon, you hear "help me help me kind sir" like probably 5000 times throughout the game, its just the BO has ZERO text and just voices, so if you gain a optional spell, of course it'll describe it with a voice.

LOL its hilarious how you say "I've given you evidence! I've given you proof" when you've given me NOTHING, if you have i wouldn't be typing this right now, so then wheres this evidence/proof? Now watch you reply "I've already given it to you!" or something stupid like that.

And? Sephiroths masamune is made up of the negative lifestream, which is basically everything souls, life, power, energy, magic

So those tenticles get chopped up like butter, its fact that he can be defeated by getting stabbed in the eye enough times.

Do i have to explain it to you again?

Player1: Plays beats BO, 3 times every single time he only got some of the optional spells

Player2: Got most of the optional spells

Does that make Player2's story canon? No, neither of them could be, player1's could be, no one will ever know, optional spells aren't guaranteed to be actually part of the plot, Cloud might've got Knights of the Round, he might have got master summon, he might have not got any of them, we'll never know

Unless the optional things are proven to have gotten obtained in the actual plot, we cannot assume it has been, but all we know for sure is Spirit Death was never heard of or spoken about,, or used in any of the sequals or used in the entire plot, so that has to mean something.

Yes, but it means nothing, its just dialogue, read above.

Kain doesn't have a [b]storyline plot on gaining Spirit Death either.
You just get a description of the optional spell if you acquire it like any other optional spell.

No, it says sorcery, and your just adding "reality warping" to make it sound powerful, when it really isn't even much of a feat, if they can instantly mutate people they fight then it would be a feat.

And the plants are mutating due to the sorcery as its stated, you adding "ZoMg Reality warping!!!" is as meaningless as me adding reality warping to the toy soldier.

well duh, no character really goes into another video games universe unless they developers do a collaberation. Its about basing it on the characters power, IF Pyron was in the LOK Universe (I know he won't be so save yourself the time of going "ZOMG HES NOT HE'LL DISINTEGRATE!!"😉 he can bust the planet easily.

Thats not proof genius, prove kain has the optional spell, example, him being able to use it, or him using it in the plot, a voice description of the optional spell means nothing, since the game is based on voices anyway.

Dude, putting weight back does NOT mean moving your foot back, no one does that, putting weight back is shifting your body so that weight goes on your back leg so you can spring forward. Like throwing a hook punch.

He did spring forward, obviously you're going to deny it because your Burning Thought and the character is Kain, but im speaking realistically, sorry.

There creators suggest that hes not using the Dual Hound LOL, which means hes most likely NOT using the Dual hound for speed, understand that. [/B]

But they are unique to him in the game, the player cannot interchange the item with another character, there isnt even another PC anyway, their unique to each character through storyline, Kain himself says he gains the spell, thus it can be used. Kain did gain the spell, he says so in the story...

As i said 100 times before, Kain himself says he gains the spells, thats in the BO script.....that alone is enough proof to make the spell usable by Kain in any debate.

The Voice means everything, the diffrence is Materia and other non canon things dont have that...you cant show me I bet..

The spells being optional does not make them canon, Dantes shotgun is optional yet its used in debates and is canon for the reason it excists in the game and he gains it, the players decision not to get something is whats irrelvent, the spell itself having Kains dialogue for it makes it canon.

You have trouble understanding your own broken logic? Kains voice in-universe notification of the power are just voices played once you gain a certain spell., that notification never changes...see what I did ther!

yes you would because you deny all evidence and ignore it so you dont have to concede, at the moment youve given me zero proof of any of your claims, just broken logic, youve not even made any counter point proof, ive given you a lot of evidence:

Originally posted by Burning thought

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/dejoule.php?sec=1&type=1

For Dejoules energy manip already your "youve given no proof" is BS, lets see some more:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo1/spells.php

this page has given you all of Kains script and dialogue on those spells in question, more proof that kains speech is not simply a gameplay mechanic, it has nothing of the sort, the description under that is the gameplay but his speech puts hat spell in his canon storyline path

so...this brings me to..wheres your evidence?

Although proof has shown it to be pretty indeffective overall and is no more than a long sword......also being made of something doesnt mean it has the power of that something, its shown no power to take souls or afaik any magical enchantment at all, in AC it does not do much, in KH it does little.

YOu can explain your delusions but they dont mean anything since:

The players story is irrelvent, Kains speech IS relevent since its a constant, just because a player chooses not to take a spell which is often in their path anyway doesnt make hte spell uncanon because thats a player decision, the fact Kain has a speech for them means their canon because the speech is not a player decision...you have no argument.

But does any of Clouds speeches/text talk about KotR like Kain does, or does it just say something like "press this and KOtr does A and B etc etc"

Its not, as ive already for some reason explained to you, the Toy soldier melting is reality, it supposed to, your saying those animals are supposed to mutate/tranform? it doesnt matter if magic is used, in a way magic is a form of reality warping, since a fireball appearing out of nowhere is not part of reality itself, infact I think your confused, I think by reality warping you mean transformation, like when you said turning Kain into a duck or sephiroth into toilot paper etc etc, thats transformation not just reality warping.

What are you saying? Pyron full stop would be dissolved by being in LOK universe...wtf you talking about? Pyron would if hes not simply transported to a random dimension by Azimoth first due to Moebius forseeing Pyrons coming years before it happens......so yeh, Pyron has no chance even if for some magical reason the timeline allows it. And thats if Kain doesnt just kill the guy.

The voice description means everything, its just like storyline because its in-character, its nothing to do with gameplay therefore by denomination and how Kain is saying it, its canon unvierse material...

Only his arm moves backwards, as ive said, your going to contiually deny it, form now on until youve actually got better evidence of your claim ill simply quote this again and again, the guy moves instantly faster than Loz over his shorter distance either way.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Theres no difference between the text that describes the materia, and the voice that describes the spell, again theres no text in BO, but rather voice.

All that system has nothing to do with it, the bottom line is Materia can be used by people, as spells can be learned by vampires.

No its part of YOUR story, not the canon story, the optional things in gameplay are not guaranteed canon unless its proven, its all "maybes".

No its not like a cutscene, its like TEXT, the game chooses to use voices instead of text thats all, the cutscene is the cutscene like when it shows Kain being turned into a vampire.

What are you talking about? Fire3 looks like a huge explosion, so does flare, so does dynamite, they all are basically just fire exlosions, the one on the roof could've been anyone of them or all of them.

Ret-conned to being blasts? Sorry but, are you stupid? Do you even know what ret-conned means? If it was retconned then there should be an explaination saying that "White and Black materia were not really materia" and a bunch of other things to explain all the events of FF7 and the "materia" that have been in the storyline like the giant materias, etc. plus the fact that there was materia in DoC which happens AFTER AC, and all the guides that explain about materia and the different ypes of materia,

Haha retconned just because YOU (who haven't even played any of the games) can't find any similar materia of the one on the roof, when there are thousands of materia on the planet (even ones that have never been shown) and theres TONS that look like that.

Ok prove this, you keep harping on about proof, prove its the same thing, ime looking for somethnig like

Cloud: Firega materia, created by the power of hte lifestream etc etc

either way its still an interchangable non unique power.

No because the system is massively important, until we see another vampire that the players can choose to have their spells on, the spells are stll unique to Kain by all subject of proof.

Can you prove your reasoning behind this? imo if the main character speaks in-character as if part of the LOK universe which Kain does about the spell without any gameplay hinted, its part of Kains script that he would alway say when he gains the spell, thus its canon that Kain gains the spell in the storyline.

Its just as good canon as a cutscene, as i said before, prove your reasoning? what makes you say the in-character dialogue descrbing a spell from the LOK unvierse point of view as he gains it is not canon for some reason?

Ret-conning something in my sense is changing something previously to something diffrent, like in Marvel the previous unvierse was ret-conned when it became a multiverse, same with pre-retcon beyonder, he was changed, thus....the materia have obviously been changed.

Show me...if I cant, its your job to show me...

Originally posted by Burning thought
But they are unique to him in the game, the player cannot interchange the item with another character, there isnt even another PC anyway, their unique to each character through storyline, Kain himself says he gains the spell, thus it can be used. Kain did gain the spell, he says so in the story...

If he has it in the story, then who has he used it on in the story? No one? K.

As i said 100 times before, Kain himself says he gains the spells, thats in the BO script.....that alone is enough proof to make the spell usable by Kain in any debate.

Please comprehend this, its not that difficult, i'm sure even a 10 year old can understand this:

Player1: Plays beats BO, 3 times every single time he only got some of the optional spells

Player2: Got most of the optional spells

Does that make Player2's story canon? No, neither of them could be, player1's could be, no one will ever know, optional spells aren't guaranteed to be actually part of the plot, Cloud might've got Knights of the Round, he might have got master summon, he might have not got any of them, we'll never know

Unless the optional things are proven to have gotten obtained in the actual plot, we cannot assume it has been, but all we know for sure is Spirit Death was never heard of or spoken about,, or used in any of the sequals or used in the entire plot, so that has to mean something.

The Voice means everything, the diffrence is Materia and other non canon things dont have that...you cant show me I bet..

No, voice isn't everything. Voice is just the style they used over text.

The spells being optional does not make them canon, Dantes shotgun is optional yet its used in debates and is canon for the reason it excists in the game and he gains it, the players decision not to get something is whats irrelvent, the spell itself having Kains dialogue for it makes it canon.

You have trouble understanding your own broken logic? Kains voice in-universe notification of the power are just voices played once you gain a certain spell., that notification never changes...see what I did ther!

yes you would because you deny all evidence and ignore it so you dont have to concede, at the moment youve given me zero proof of any of your claims, just broken logic, youve not even made any counter point proof, ive given you a lot of evidence:

For Dejoules energy manip already your "youve given no proof" is BS, lets see some more:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo1/spells.php

so...this brings me to..wheres your evidence?

Although proof has shown it to be pretty indeffective overall and is no more than a long sword......also being made of something doesnt mean it has the power of that something, its shown no power to take souls or afaik any magical enchantment at all, in AC it does not do much, in KH it does little.

YOu can explain your delusions but they dont mean anything since:

The players story is irrelvent, Kains speech IS relevent since its a constant, just because a player chooses not to take a spell which is often in their path anyway doesnt make hte spell uncanon because thats a player decision, the fact Kain has a speech for them means their canon because the speech is not a player decision...you have no argument.

But does any of Clouds speeches/text talk about KotR like Kain does, or does it just say something like "press this and KOtr does A and B etc etc"

Its not, as ive already for some reason explained to you, the Toy soldier melting is reality, it supposed to, your saying those animals are supposed to mutate/tranform? it doesnt matter if magic is used, in a way magic is a form of reality warping, since a fireball appearing out of nowhere is not part of reality itself, infact I think your confused, I think by reality warping you mean transformation, like when you said turning Kain into a duck or sephiroth into toilot paper etc etc, thats transformation not just reality warping.
[/qutoe]
... wow your intelligence amazes me sometimes, ok try to comprehend this

I've stated myself, that the soldier is melting because of my lighter, i just added the "reality warping" to make it sound more powerful.

The TEXT stated itself, that the things were mutating because of sorcery, YOU just added the "reality warping" to make it sound more powerful.

Yeah exactly, it COULD be just transforming, and not "reality warping" theres no way to tell because they just did it to that thing, if its stated as transforming, then thats all it is.

And if you can reality warp, then you can make a fireball out of "nothing" the air is part of reality, therefore you can warp the air into a fireball.

[quote]
What are you saying? Pyron full stop would be dissolved by being in LOK universe...wtf you talking about? Pyron would if hes not simply transported to a random dimension by Azimoth first due to Moebius forseeing Pyrons coming years before it happens......so yeh, Pyron has no chance even if for some magical reason the timeline allows it. And thats if Kain doesnt just kill the guy.

You're looking at this in terms of STORY, Pyron has NO STORY in LOK, just as Sephiroth has no story in Marvel, so don't give me that "oo the psychic will beable to see him coming in so many prior years!"

Use your imagination, thats basically what this entire vs. forum is about, if Pyron were to appear there right now, he can annihilate everything including EG.

The voice description means everything, its just like storyline because its in-character, its nothing to do with gameplay therefore by denomination and how Kain is saying it, its canon unvierse material...

Only his arm moves backwards, as ive said, your going to contiually deny it, form now on until youve actually got better evidence of your claim ill simply quote this again and again, the guy moves instantly faster than Loz over his shorter distance either way.

Lol Kain moves faster then Loz, yeah ok.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ok prove this, you keep harping on about proof, prove its the same thing, ime looking for somethnig like
Cloud: Firega materia, created by the power of hte lifestream etc etc

If there was text that described what knights of the round did, it wouldn't make KoTR canon, because the spell is optional, therefore theres no way of telling if Cloud actually breeded a bunch of chocobos into a golden one to go gain KoTR materia.

either way its still an interchangable non unique power.

No because the system is massively important, until we see another vampire that the players can choose to have their spells on, the spells are stll unique to Kain by all subject of proof.

Can you prove your reasoning behind this? imo if the main character speaks in-character as if part of the LOK universe which Kain does about the spell without any gameplay hinted, its part of Kains script that he would alway say when he gains the spell, thus its canon that Kain gains the spell in the storyline.

The reason is, in most RPG's there are Cutscenes and there are Text

In BO, there are Cutscenes and there are Voice

Instead of Cloud using his voice they have Cloud in text, instead of Kain in text, they have Kain using his voice

Therefore by using logic, Voice is = to Text.

Its just as good canon as a cutscene, as i said before, prove your reasoning? what makes you say the in-character dialogue descrbing a spell from the LOK unvierse point of view as he gains it is not canon for some reason?

Ret-conning something in my sense is changing something previously to something diffrent, like in Marvel the previous unvierse was ret-conned when it became a multiverse, same with pre-retcon beyonder, he was changed, thus....the materia have obviously been changed.

Beyonder: everyone believed he was an omnipotent being from another multiverse

Then he got retconned: People found out the secrets about beyonder, he was not actually an omnipotent being like he led everyone to once believe he was, but rather he was an incomplete cosmic cube, that had vast psionic powers.

THAT is what being retconned is, you don't just have Meteor and Holy materia, summons materia one day, then the next day materia is all of the sudden "just blasts" rofl.

Show me...if I cant, its your job to show me...

YouTube video

Originally posted by Terryc250
Kain only says it if the PLAYER gets it, the PLOT or STORY doesn't require it, nor does the PLAYER, its OPTIONAL.

If he has it in the story, then who has he used it on in the story? No one? K.

Kain describes the optional spell he acquired doesn't make it canon.

Please comprehend this, its not that difficult, i'm sure even a 10 year old can understand this:

Player1: Plays beats BO, 3 times every single time he only got some of the optional spells

Player2: Got most of the optional spells

Does that make Player2's story canon? No, neither of them could be, player1's could be, no one will ever know, optional spells aren't guaranteed to be actually part of the plot, Cloud might've got Knights of the Round, he might have got master summon, he might have not got any of them, we'll never know

Unless the optional things are proven to have gotten obtained in the actual plot, we cannot assume it has been, but all we know for sure is Spirit Death was never heard of or spoken about,, or used in any of the sequals or used in the entire plot, so that has to mean something.

No it doesn't just because you hear a 500 chained up people go "please help me kind sir" does that mean when Kain was going through the events of BO, there were coincidently 500 chained up humans everywhere coincidently saying the exact same things?

No, voice isn't everything. Voice is just the style they used over text.

Thats what i've been saying lol, Dante has his shotgun in like every single game thats probably why, but people do use simply gameplay moves in debates, like some people use Sephiroths supernova.

But the PLAYER doesn't ALWAYS GET THAT SPELL, its OPTIONAL, duh if you get it itll say the same dialogue, but people don't always get Spirit Death when beating the game.. but theres no way of beating a game without going through the cinematic therefore everything in the cinematic is canon and happened, you keep repeating yourself, yet i've explained it to you over and over again, so either show me evidence that he has it, or stop repeating yourself, i've already told you, a voice describing the spell, whether it be kain or someone else does not amke any difference the fact is, its OPTIONAL, so theres no way of telling if it was actually acquired in the canon plot.

Evidence is showing me that Kain actually acquired the optional spell in the canon plot, have you given me any evidence? No, and don't bother replying "Well he says something when the Player acquires it, so that makes it canon!!" No it doesn't, because the player doesn't always get it, hence its optional.

Uhh said you've given me no proof on the subject matter we've been discussing, not this irrelevent crap.

My evidence of what? What are you replying to?

Proof has been shown to it being pretty ideffective? Why? Because he used it against Cloud while refusing to use any of his powers for 10 minutes? The fact is, he has power over the negative lifestream, which means he can do basically anything he wants.

Kain doesn't always have that description speech going through the game, its OPTIONAL , understand that, nothing says he actually acquired the optional spell in the canon plot, description or no description, him not having it, not being able to use it, never hearing about it, ever again for the next 4 sequals means something.

No, but even if he did, it wouldn't make Kotr canon, because its optional the only way to tell if he actually obtained it in the canon storyline is if he used it in the movie, or during a cinematic.

...??

You're looking at this in terms of STORY, Pyron has NO STORY in LOK, just as Sephiroth has no story in Marvel, so don't give me that "oo the psychic will beable to see him coming in so many prior years!"

Use your imagination, thats basically what this entire vs. forum is about, if Pyron were to appear there right now, he can annihilate everything including EG.

Optional voice is just optional voice. Doesn't make the optional thing canon because there are plenty of people who play the game without getting the optional item/spell the voice is just the same as text, it doesn't make it a cinematic cutscene.

His body is moves, be in denial all you want, but its blantaly obvious, if it was any other person i'd probably crack up, but i'm already used to you by now after all, you're BT, and the character is Kain.

Lol Kain moves faster then Loz, yeah ok.

Optional for the player but obviously Kain gets it in the canon because he has canon in-universe script.

No but if there was in-unvierse script like Cloud saying "kotr a powerful spell of ages past which was created by A wizard and B wizard in the FF storyline", then it would make it canon because he is mentioning it in story, now your telling me theres not even any text? you see this is where your argument falls, ill put a little *** three stars where this can answer an argument elseware in the post.

Kain describing it from the in-universe point of view does make it canon.

Theres no difficulty in understanding waht your saying, its just all rubbish because if PLayer C gained every optional spell his story is more canon, because then hes seen access to all the things Kain says in-unvierse in the story.

Cloud may have got them but A: their interchangable items that mean nothing in the long run especially since they have no in-universe text, also ***

Spirit death was spoken about as ive shown...

Thats obvious gameplay, since as soon as they start saying the same things it makes it obvious, Kain is the main character, what he says is relevent. Those people did not cease to excist however.

You cannot use completly gameplay moves if they are excistant in story or text especially when the effect is compltetly gameplay like the Heartless angel/Sin harvest variety. Explain how him having shotgun in most of his games makes it canon? the developers unlike LOK developers simply chose to keep the weapon, this is not a canon/storyline notificiation at all...

What the player does is irrelvent, obvously the players who dont get the splell are playing a less canon game by the end of it your determining canon now by gauging what players do.....the text and spells are all there, the dialogue kain says in-unvierse character are still there either way, they excist in the script. Youve already told me a lot of things without evidence Terry, ive already told you that Kains dialogue being in-unvierse character dialogue makes it imediatley canon, yet you still flail your arms about shouting "zomg optional but the shotgun is canon in dmc even tho it is optional too!!!" or one of my faverites "a completly irrellvent materia like KOTR not described anywhere in-charactr by characters is a good comparison!!". fail...fail and again fail.

It being optional means nothing, once again your failing by gauging canon by what the Player chooses to do, Kain is not controlled in the canon by omnipotent beings who tap keys on their pad to make him move...using what a player does is nonsense and gameplay, which is hwy you fail in Kain debates due to your enormous bias against him anyway, Kain has it in his script plain and simple.

***

Evidence? youve shown me no evidence so obviously all your claims...

According to your assumption of what the Negative lifestream is, not to mention that its not really done anything but flew down from the sky "zomg! omniversal power at Sephiroths fingertips!!"....

ofc he would be able to see him, Pyron needs no story because as soon as he is according to you going to appear in Nosgoth, he is imeidatley going to be part of the future timestream, in normal terms he would simply be deleted but lets for arguments say he is not, mobeius would know and could easily stop the guy.

How do you plan on his annhilating the EG? and if he appeared right there, right now and wasnt deleted, then were taking away the LOK unvierse statistics, why dont we just say the Nosgoth unvierse also imediatley lose all their powers and Pyron becomes universe sized....

plenty of people? as I said before....your gauging by players...fail

Ime already used to you Terry, your Terry afterall, Kain must lose and youll deny even your own evidence to try and hold on to the last straws of your dieing arguments before vanishing.

Originally posted by Terryc250
What are you talking about? Theres voice instead of text because thats what it is, use your common sense.

If there was text that described what knights of the round did, it wouldn't make KoTR canon, because the spell is optional, therefore theres no way of telling if Cloud actually breeded a bunch of chocobos into a golden one to go gain KoTR materia.

Same with spells.

Vorador has spells, therefore other vampires can learn spells.

The reason is, in most RPG's there are Cutscenes and there are Text

In BO, there are Cutscenes and there are Voice

Instead of Cloud using his voice they have Cloud in text, instead of Kain in text, they have Kain using his voice

Therefore by using logic, Voice is = to Text.

No its just as good as text is.

ROFL they don't just SUDDENLY change everything and its changed one day, they give explanations to what it really is, for example:

Beyonder: everyone believed he was an omnipotent being from another multiverse

Then he got retconned: People found out the secrets about beyonder, he was not actually an omnipotent being like he led everyone to once believe he was, but rather he was an incomplete cosmic cube, that had vast psionic powers.

THAT is what being retconned is, you don't just have Meteor and Holy materia, summons materia one day, then the next day materia is all of the sudden "just blasts" rofl.

I could only find dynamite and fire3 in crap quality
the first 2 spells

YouTube video

***

what? show me Kain interchanging one of his spells controlled by the player to another character?

yeh, Vorador can learn them, most beings in fiction can "learn" other peoples abiliteis but their not interchangable by the character or shown in the game so thats the main argument here

Show me Cloud with an in-universe description of a materia your calling uncanon then...ive asked for this before but ill prob not get it....lol, you dont like giving proof.

Well it obviously is because AC is a newer version of FF universe and so they are probably one of the first tiems yu see so many materia actually used canonically, when do you see Fireaga or otherwise used canonically? this is one of the first times and almost eveyr materia was a blast out of about 10...

That does not look like whats upon the roof, they blasted out of their arms, they didnt even do any magic inscriptions in the air like those people do, lets assume your right, youve described to me about 5 out of 10, how can the other 5 be al blasts even if the rest are fire spells, and this would be a massive conindicende that every materia, all 10 between them turn out to be all fire spells.....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Optional for the player but obviously Kain gets it in the canon because he has canon in-universe script.

No but if there was in-unvierse script like Cloud saying "kotr a powerful spell of ages past which was created by A wizard and B wizard in the FF storyline", then it would make it canon because he is mentioning it in story, now your telling me theres not even any text? you see this is where your argument falls, ill put a little *** three stars where this can answer an argument elseware in the post.

If it was similar to that saying "this materia was created by so and so" then it can possibly be canon, however if it was an optional materia and when you get it Cloud goes "A nice spell, good thing Sephiroth didn't get it" it still doesn't make it canon, because of the fact that it was only OPTIONAL.

Theres no difficulty in understanding waht your saying, its just all rubbish because if PLayer C gained every optional spell his story is more canon, because then hes seen access to all the things Kain says in-unvierse in the story.

Cloud may have got them but A: their interchangable items that mean nothing in the long run especially since they have no in-universe text, also ***

Spirit death was spoken about as ive shown...

Spirit death has no PLOT dialogue, was never in the plot, is an optional spell, no evidence that Kain obtained it in the canon plot, and thats the bottom line, you don't have to repeat yourself unless you can show me evidence of Kain actually having the optional spell in the story.

Thats obvious gameplay, since as soon as they start saying the same things it makes it obvious, Kain is the main character, what he says is relevent. Those people did not cease to excist however.

You cannot use completly gameplay moves if they are excistant in story or text especially when the effect is compltetly gameplay like the Heartless angel/Sin harvest variety. Explain how him having shotgun in most of his games makes it canon? the developers unlike LOK developers simply chose to keep the weapon, this is not a canon/storyline notificiation at all...

Like i said before, none of the optional things are certain to have been obtained in the actualy story, however the fact that the item keeps appearing throughout the sequals suggests that Dante really has a shotgun.

What the player does is irrelvent, obvously the players who dont get the splell are playing a less canon game by the end of it your determining canon now by gauging what players do.....the text and spells are all there, the dialogue kain says in-unvierse character are still there either way, they excist in the script. Youve already told me a lot of things without evidence Terry, ive already told you that Kains dialogue being in-unvierse character dialogue makes it imediatley canon, yet you still flail your arms about shouting "zomg optional but the shotgun is canon in dmc even tho it is optional too!!!" or one of my faverites "a completly irrellvent materia like KOTR not described anywhere in-charactr by characters is a good comparison!!". fail...fail and again fail.

You're obviously just frustrated now that i see you're rambling on about nonsense and just constently repeating yourself, so either show me evidence that Kain gained it in the actual canon plot, or concede.

It being optional means nothing, once again your failing by gauging canon by what the Player chooses to do, Kain is not controlled in the canon by omnipotent beings who tap keys on their pad to make him move...using what a player does is nonsense and gameplay, which is hwy you fail in Kain debates due to your enormous bias against him anyway, Kain has it in his script plain and simple.

If something suggests that the character did, then you can say it, but if everything points to the character not having it, then thats that.

Evidence? youve shown me no evidence so obviously all your claims...

According to your assumption of what the Negative lifestream is, not to mention that its not really done anything but flew down from the sky "zomg! omniversal power at Sephiroths fingertips!!"....

ofc he would be able to see him, Pyron needs no story because as soon as he is according to you going to appear in Nosgoth, he is imeidatley going to be part of the future timestream, in normal terms he would simply be deleted but lets for arguments say he is not, mobeius would know and could easily stop the guy.

How do you plan on his annhilating the EG? and if he appeared right there, right now and wasnt deleted, then were taking away the LOK unvierse statistics, why dont we just say the Nosgoth unvierse also imediatley lose all their powers and Pyron becomes universe sized....

"If" makes everything possible, If Pyron is on Nosgoth he'd take out everything, no don't give me any story crap like "zoMG No one can touch nosgoth because it didn't happen so it cannot happen!!!"

plenty of people? as I said before....your gauging by players...fail

Ime already used to you Terry, your Terry afterall, Kain must lose and youll deny even your own evidence to try and hold on to the last straws of your dieing arguments before vanishing.

You can deny all my evidence, and just repeat yourself even though i've smashed your argument, you'll just be as much in denial as you deny to see that Kains body is moving LOL.

Originally posted by Burning thought
[b]***

what? show me Kain interchanging one of his spells controlled by the player to another character?

yeh, Vorador can learn them, most beings in fiction can "learn" other peoples abiliteis but their not [b]interchangable by the character or shown in the game so thats the main argument here

Show me Cloud with an in-universe description of a materia your calling uncanon then...ive asked for this before but ill prob not get it....lol, you dont like giving proof.

Well it obviously is because AC is a newer version of FF universe and so they are probably one of the first tiems yu see so many materia actually used canonically, when do you see Fireaga or otherwise used canonically? this is one of the first times and almost eveyr materia was a blast out of about 10...

That does not look like whats upon the roof, they blasted out of their arms, they didnt even do any magic inscriptions in the air like those people do, lets assume your right, youve described to me about 5 out of 10, how can the other 5 be al blasts even if the rest are fire spells, and this would be a massive conindicende that every materia, all 10 between them turn out to be all fire spells.....

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. Dude, he gives a description of it, it has NOTHING to do with the STORY, now stop repeating yourself because this is about the 50th time i've said it

If it was similar to that saying "this materia was created by so and so" then it can possibly be canon, however if it was an optional materia and when you get it Cloud goes "A nice spell, good thing Sephiroth didn't get it" it still doesn't make it canon, because of the fact that it was only OPTIONAL.

No, nothing says that the canon story, the actual canon plot obtained every single item/spell/magic in the game, in the FF7 story, Cloud never obtained every single optional item/materia.

Spirit death has no PLOT dialogue, was never in the plot, is an optional spell, no evidence that Kain obtained it in the canon plot, and thats the bottom line, you don't have to repeat yourself unless you can show me evidence of Kain actually having the optional spell in the story.

And Kain just automatically gives descriptions to any spell he acquires, that could be just "gameplay" as well, just as the voices automatically talking when you go near them.

Spirit Death is a completely gameplay move as well.

Like i said before, none of the optional things are certain to have been obtained in the actualy story, however the fact that the item keeps appearing throughout the sequals suggests that Dante really has a shotgun.

So about 95% of FF7 players games are uncanon? And only the people who spent countless hours going through and obtaining every single item in the game has a more canon game? In the actual story Cloud doesn't get all the items/weapons/materia, thats the thing you don't understand not every single optional item was obtained in the actual plot.

You're obviously just frustrated now that i see you're rambling on about nonsense and just constently repeating yourself, so either show me evidence that Kain gained it in the actual canon plot, or concede.

Being optional means its not guaranteed the character went and got the optional spell/item in the actual canon storyline.

If something suggests that the character did, then you can say it, but if everything points to the character not having it, then thats that.

..What did i claim?

I don't assume anything, i tell facts.

Again your doing things from a story point of view. Ignore all that nonsense, and have Pyron in Nosgoth, he would annihilate it.

Annihilate him by taking out the planet duh, dude stop trying to make excuses, Pyron ISN'T going to go into Nosgoth, just as Sephiroth isn't going to the Marvel universe, we're looking it as an [b]IF, use your common sense please.

"If" makes everything possible, If Pyron is on Nosgoth he'd take out everything, no don't give me any story crap like "zoMG No one can touch nosgoth because it didn't happen so it cannot happen!!!"

Your gauging by yourself, just because you got the spell doesn't make it canon.

Kain will lose to more powerful superior characters with actual feats, sorry but Kain has little to no feats.

You can deny all my evidence, and just repeat yourself even though i've smashed your argument, you'll just be as much in denial as you deny to see that Kains body is moving LOL. [/B]

The optional part is a player decision, that means its irrelvent, this is about the 51st time ive had to say it but your just not got any understanding.

No if it was optional and Cloud said "this materia was created etc etc" then his speech is what makes it canon, the player NOT getting the spell would be less canon because then those words which would be in Clouds word script would not be said, thing is, Materia has no such thing, Kains spells do.

No because none of them are made part of the canon by a speech like Kains.

The evidence is Kain saying it, the guy is making it part of it as soon as he said, I think from now on ill just quote this because your not actually making points, your simply denying everything now "sigh" typical....just concede...** is the reapt ill prob have to do.

It cant because thats the main character talking it, he only says it once and its in the main characters script. **

**

Nothing suggests that, it just suggests the developers like the weapon in the game, simple, it doesnt make any canon notification full stop....

no the FF7 players are canon because their items like materia dont have the in-universe text....so their compeltly uncanon. No not in FF, because most of the items are nothing to do with the universe canon, materia as a whole is, but each one is obviously a gameplay element.

** you concede, youve got no argument, no proof for your claims, just denying, the only proof i need is the Kains speech for each spell making it part of the unvierse, wheres your counter proof? none...so just concede.

nothing points to him not having it....everything so far such as ** points to him having it.

That kains spells are not canon due to them being optional, you also claim that him saying something is not canon, their your claims.

you cant prove any of these "so called facts"

This is not from a story point of view, if he just randomly without question and without Nosgoth being allowed to fortell it even though they have the power then Pyron would defeat Nosgoth, infact most universes main planets in that situation, however he could only defeat Nosgoth if you can prove he would do so without a soul?

No you dont understand, the planet itself is an immutable timeline, taking away that is like taing away the characters powers, ime not saying "it never happend", you are obviously confused, Sephiroth never fought Kain, but what ime saying is, Nosgoth is an immutable timeline, Marvel and most other unvierses are not.

And I can say exactley same to you, you will be in denile, problem? youve not got any facts or proof at all, ive already shown you mine, youve got no counter proof, youve simply got denile, its like me saying Sephiroth is actually a normal human but not giving any proof, then telling the opponent in the debate he is failing the debate because he is not able to debate against nothing since youve got nothing.....

my proof is the only proof on the table atm, Kain has far more power than you obviously want him to have, hell this debate in question is about you hoping to dear God you can somehow make anyone belive your unproven nonsense about him not having all his uber spells that make most characters weep.

Originally posted by Terryc250
You don't have any other characters to "interchange" your spells with, but other vampires can learn spells, thats a fact.

As long as they went and got the spell, sure.

Well most materia is uncanon duh, theres no way of telling which of the optional materia Cloud really got in the plot storyline, unless it re-appeared in AC.

I dont know what you're replying to here, it would be helpful if you would quote the parts you're replying to instead of just writing paragraphs expecting me to know what you're replying to.

Because its gameplay duh, all it showed in AC was an explosion, there were lots of "explosion" materia in FF7 game, again i've said before there are like millions of materia on the planet, and players haven't seen even a portion of them all, it could most likely been a materias that was never in the game, like bahamut sin was never in any of the games.

They can, but as you said the player does not control anything here, thus gameplay is not a question, thus its unique to those characters because the player is doing nothing...

Which most of which did not.....so your using Materia that is already proven uncanon and completly shown to be unlike Kains spells, so you cannot even show me what ime asking for...youve got no argument again.

yet you cannot actually prove it, wheras my evidence of them having 10 materia all the same is my evidence, I see, so you concede this point and so FF is obviously mostly retconned into blasts of materia, apart from those proven canon AFTER AC

Originally posted by Burning thought
The optional part is a player decision, that means its irrelvent, this is about the 51st time ive had to say it but your just not got any understanding.

No if it was optional and Cloud said "this materia was created etc etc" then his speech is what makes it canon, the player NOT getting the spell would be less canon because then those words which would be in Clouds word script would not be said, thing is, Materia has no such thing, Kains spells do.

No because none of them are made part of the canon by a speech like Kains.

The evidence is Kain saying it, the guy is making it part of it as soon as he said, I think from now on ill just quote this because your not actually making points, your simply denying everything now "sigh" typical....just concede...** is the reapt ill prob have to do.

It cant because thats the main character talking it, he only says it once and its in the main characters script. **

Nothing suggests that, it just suggests the developers like the weapon in the game, simple, it doesnt make any canon notification full stop....

no the FF7 players are canon because their items like materia dont have the in-universe text....so their compeltly uncanon. No not in FF, because most of the items are nothing to do with the universe canon, materia as a whole is, but each one is obviously a gameplay element.

The only thing that would prove its canon is if they used the optional item in the story, or had things suggested that the actual character obtained it.

** you concede, youve got no argument, no proof for your claims, just denying, the only proof i need is the Kains speech for each spell making it part of the unvierse, wheres your counter proof? none...so just concede.

Bottom line is, the spell is optional, nothing suggests that he actually obtained the spell in the plot story, the fact that Kain has never used it in the story, went unheard of for the next 4 games suggests that he didn't obtain it, so sorry, but you're wrong, and no no don't reply saying "zomg kain has a description!!!" that doesn't matter like i've said it doesn't change the fact that its optional.

nothing points to him not having it....everything so far such as ** points to him having it.

That kains spells are not canon due to them being optional, you also claim that him saying something is not canon, their your claims.

you cant prove any of these "so called facts"

If you've played the game you would know what the lifestream is, if you've read any of the guides you'd know what the lifestream is.

This is not from a story point of view, if he just randomly without question and without Nosgoth being allowed to fortell it even though they have the power then Pyron would defeat Nosgoth, infact most universes main planets in that situation, however he could only defeat Nosgoth if you can prove he would do so without a soul?

No you dont understand, the planet itself is an immutable timeline, taking away that is like taing away the characters powers, ime not saying "it never happend", you are obviously confused, Sephiroth never fought Kain, but what ime saying is, Nosgoth is an immutable timeline, Marvel and most other unvierses are not.

However if the developers of DS and LOK did a collaberation, Pyron was on Nosgoth, he would destroy everyone.

And I can say exactley same to you, you will be in denile, problem? youve not got any facts or proof at all, ive already shown you mine, youve got no counter proof, youve simply got denile, its like me saying Sephiroth is actually a normal human but not giving any proof, then telling the opponent in the debate he is failing the debate because he is not able to debate against nothing since youve got nothing.....

They can, but as you said the player does not control anything here, thus gameplay is not a question, thus its unique to those characters because the player is doing nothing...

Which most of which did not.....so your using Materia that is already proven uncanon and completly shown to be unlike Kains spells, so you cannot even show me what ime asking for...youve got no argument again.

yet you cannot actually prove it, wheras my evidence of them having 10 materia all the same is my evidence, I see, so you concede this point and so FF is obviously mostly retconned into blasts of materia, apart from those proven canon AFTER AC

Alright Burning Thought, materia has been "retconned" into just blasts, we'll just ignore the fact that:

1) Summon materia was even used in the AC movie
2) Different types of materia was in DoC
3) There was no explaination Meteor and Holy really were, if they were not materia.
4) There's like millions of materia yet to be seen but i guess they're just "blasts"

And all the FF7 guides must be April Fools joke right?

Originally posted by Terryc250
1.Optional means its possible that Kain never obtained it in the plot canon, just as Cloud and co might not have gotten KOTR, so unless you have evidence that Kain actually obtained it, stop saying nonsense.

No it wouldn't, if Cloud said for every single materia "this materia is good for my health!" obtained the black materia in canon "This materia is one of the most destructive materia" went and got KOTR optional matera and said "This materia sure is awesome!" it wouldn't make the optional KOTR materia canon, describing the materia does NOT make it canon

2. Description of the spell does not make it canon. Optional things are not guaranteed to have been obtained in canon, unless there was something that suggests it was, or evidence that it is, or used in the plot, but for Spirit Death everything suggests that it was NOT obtained.

3. No, Kain describes every item he gains, the bottom line is its optional, and just because you played it and obtained spirit death, doesn't mean the actual canon plot obtained it, unless it was suggested or there was evidence that he obtained it. For example Bahamut Sin was an optional spell, we couldn't have said Cloud got it in the canon plot until it was proven he did, but it showed in AC that he DID obtain it, another example, many people fight Sephiroth using the optional Ultima Weapon, Clouds final most powerful Weapon, however in AC in the flashback it showed Cloud fighting Sephiroth with the Buster Sword.

Its optional, thats the bottom line, him having a description for it makes no difference as any other optional item having dialogue for it.

4. Like i've stated above, even if there was an ingame description for every optional materia, it wouldn't make them canon, because of the fact that they're optional.

The only thing that would prove its canon is if they used the optional item in the story, or had things suggested that the actual character obtained it.

5. Uh i've stated facts, you've just been repeating nonsense that i've already destroyed,

Bottom line is, the spell is optional, nothing suggests that he actually obtained the spell in the plot story, the fact that Kain has never used it in the story, went unheard of for the next 4 games suggests that he didn't obtain it, so sorry, but you're wrong, and no no don't reply saying "zomg kain has a description!!!" that doesn't matter like i've said it doesn't change the fact that its optional.

6. How about the fact that he's never soul ripped anyone in the story? Or how about that it was never even mentioned again? In the rest of the entire LOK series, i guarantee even if 5 more LOK games come out Kain won't ever soul rip anyone with a simple spell.

7. No i'm stating facts, being optional means what it says, "optional" meaning theres a choice to have it, or not have it, theres a chance Kain has it, and theres a chance Kain doesn't have it, however; nothing suggests that Kain has it.

8.Uhh, everything i've stated about the lifestream is infact, FACT.

If you've played the game you would know what the lifestream is, if you've read any of the guides you'd know what the lifestream is.

1. It would if Kain the main charatcter did not actually already say hes got the spell himself, in-universe, thus players who do not choose to gain the spell, are choosing not to see Kains in-universe dialogue which is part of the lore, unlike the players decision, thus the lore beats your argument since its based around player decisions which ofc are not canon.

Unless you have any proof stop saying such nonsense, especially using the old Materia examples, youve already shown me you cannot show half of the things ive asked for because they dont excist for materia.

Saying "this materia is good for my Health" is nothing like Cloud, he would be too emo to say somethng like that so dont be ridiculous, if he was saying that imeidaltey its nothing to do with the games story and ALL of your mockery rubbish texts dont point to the storyline, Kain mentioning the Necromancer in his in-universe character DOES and thus makes it canon, however if Cloud said for each materia something like "The KoTr materia created by Wizard A 100 years ago by using the lifestream etc etc" or if someone else said it from the party more likely to speak (cloud being a sad silent pointless character overall) then it would be canon because they descriped its story. NO materia have this however, so their terrible evidence for just about anything for LOK, ill make a **** so I dont repeat myself.

2. ****

3. He does speak of every spell, thus every spell is canon, and stop the saddity of using Materia, its getting old and their nonthing alike ****

4. Its nothing to do with options, the option to take the spell is a player choice therefore non canon, its what surrounds the item in question, i.e Kains canon speech in-universe that makes it canon, not some player thinking whether or not he wants it, FF Materia would all be canon if they had a description of their excistence witin the universe itself for each one. **** also can answer this.

5. oh really? youve stated facts? well so have I then, ive stated the FACT all spells are canon, does that make it fact? no, proof does, which you dont have, you have zero evidence Terry, your statements do not defeat my statements with proof just because your stating something. You obviously have a superiroty complex regarding this since you belive your statements are all facts which is nonsense.

6. I guarantee if another game came out he would likely do far far more impressive tihngs noe he is an infnite magic guardian, thing is, all of this part of your argument is useless becayse your guarantees nor mine mean little without proof

7. Facts? their not facts, their your own opinion on the situation, you dont seem to know what a fact is, a fact is something undeniable, like Kain is a vampire, thats a fact, however youve got simply opinions without argumetns, my argument is that it being optional is irrelvent since its a player decision which are also irrelvent in canon, yet his voice for each spell is relevent and canon since their in-universe lore.

8. yes IF, but I have not, if you had played the LOK series through one or twice, you would know Kains spells are canon and how he is as powerful as I claim as does my proof.

Originally posted by Terryc250
9. Who's going to "soul rip" him, and what Soul ripping feats does this person have? None? Then Pyron karate chops the planet.

Yeah thats if you go by the story, however if Pyron were to appear there and now, he would demolish everything, we all know no character is part of any timeline in a different universe unless the developers did a collaberation.

However if the developers of DS and LOK did a collaberation, Pyron was on Nosgoth, he would destroy everyone.

10. No you've just been repeating yourself, stating that same "Kain has a description!" argument that i've already smashed, listen and read, ill smash it again
Kain giving a description makes no difference, Hell, if Cloud gave a description for all his optional materia would that make ever materia canon? No. The bottom line is, its optional. Unless its been proven or suggested that Cloud actually went and got the optional item in the storyline plot, theres no guarantee that he did.

11. As long as the vampire goes and obtains the spell he can use it, as long as the human goes and obtains the materia, he can use it.

12. Listen and read, open your eyes a little bit wider maybe: Even if Cloud had a description for every materia, it would NOT make it guarantee'd to have been obtained in the actual plot, because the bottom line is, its optional thus that means theres a chance he did NOT obtain it.

13. Wow this really has got to be one of the more stupid things you have said on this forum, first the Kain owning LT, then Kain being faster then Loz, Kain owning every DS, and now FF7 materia being "retconned" into just blasts rofl, i'm really tempted just to quote all the hilarious things you say and just profile them.

Alright Burning Thought, materia has been "retconned" into just blasts, we'll just ignore the fact that:

1) Summon materia was even used in the AC movie
2) Different types of materia was in DoC
3) There was no explaination Meteor and Holy really were, if they were not materia.
4) There's like millions of materia yet to be seen but i guess they're just "blasts"

And all the FF7 guides must be April Fools joke right?

9. Mortanious who in the storyline rips a soul from the underworld itself and planeted it in a body, infact Mortainious, the heavens knows how many soul stealers and Raziel, Kain all have soul powers, and thats if the big lump isnt frozen by a time spell, and thats simply argueing from the view that he does suddenly appear in a ridiculous fashion, otherwise he would be elminated by other means.

If we go by the statistics of Nosgoth he would be elmianted by time immutability, something few universes have.

No he wouldnt because Nosgoth still has immutable timeline, unless the developers made Pyron part of the canon timeline and he was always supposed to excist in the timeline.
IUn which case Moebius and Azimoth would annilate him before his time comes to pass.

WHy dont you just say if Nosgoth had its time immutability taken away and randomy without any notification to the timeline which many beings can see appeared right inside the core of nosgoth then Pyron would destroy Nosgoth!!, thats basically what your saying, I could say the same with most FF universes, unforatley most of them wouldnt even have a chance against Pyron even if given Prep.

10. **** and all false, after a combination of failing arguments about materia not even in the same area as Spells in LOK, you fail even more by claiming that a players decision determines canon now? what nonsense. infact this can be useful ill use ** for it

11. So show me the proof of the vampire who actually does this?

12. Now your just getting tired, irriitated and because youve got no arguments you need to somehow prolong this nonsense, **** and **

13. If i were to quote yours Terry my profile would stretch a users browser several pages over for you....yet another bait...no argument.

1) so we see theres a single summonable, excellent

2) Dont know what DoC is, does it show canon materia and is also after AC?

3) rephrase this please, it doesnt look like English

4) Probable, thing is these millions not seen are irrelvent, you cant base your argument around something nobody has seen....well actually YOU prob would...but thats why you fail at these debates.

FF7 guides? i thot FF7 was before AC (I know it was) so what about the guides?

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. It would if Kain the main charatcter did not actually already say hes got the spell himself, in-universe, thus players who do not choose to gain the spell, are choosing not to see Kains in-universe dialogue which is part of the lore, unlike the players decision, thus the lore beats your argument since its based around player decisions which ofc are not canon.

Its a matter of actual PROOF or evidence whether kain went and obtained the spell in the plot storyline or not.

Having a description dialogue for it still makes it moot, think about it this way, IF Cloud were to have a description for all the optional materia in the game, would it mean Cloud actually obtained all of them in the plot? No it wouldn't.

The bottom line still remains that the spell/item/materia/weapon is optional so unless there was something that suggests Kain actually went and obtained the optional spell, the "optional" factor still remains.

Unless you have any proof stop saying such nonsense, especially using the old Materia examples, youve already shown me you cannot show half of the things ive asked for because they dont excist for materia.

Saying "this materia is good for my Health" is nothing like Cloud, he would be too emo to say somethng like that so dont be ridiculous, if he was saying that imeidaltey its nothing to do with the games story and ALL of your mockery rubbish texts dont point to the storyline, Kain mentioning the Necromancer in his in-universe character DOES and thus makes it canon, however if Cloud said for each materia something like "The KoTr materia created by Wizard A 100 years ago by using the lifestream etc etc" or if someone else said it from the party more likely to speak (cloud being a sad silent pointless character overall) then it would be canon because they descriped its story. NO materia have this however, so their terrible evidence for just about anything for LOK, ill make a **** so I dont repeat myself.

Nromally if there was a huge dialogue describing the origin and going into details about the spells, it wouldn't just be an "optional" spell, it would be a storyline spell.

Kain describing the spell just like any other optional spell makes it just that, nothing to do with the story.

3. He does speak of every spell, thus every spell is canon, and stop the saddity of using Materia, its getting old and their nonthing alike ****

4. Its nothing to do with options, the option to take the spell is a player choice therefore non canon, its what surrounds the item in question, i.e Kains canon speech in-universe that makes it canon, not some player thinking whether or not he wants it, FF Materia would all be canon if they had a description of their excistence witin the universe itself for each one. **** also can answer this.

Of course having a description can mean it exists, but it doesn't mean that Cloud actually got it in the plot canon story.

5. oh really? youve stated facts? well so have I then, ive stated the FACT all spells are canon, does that make it fact? no, proof does, which you dont have, you have zero evidence Terry, your statements do not defeat my statements with proof just because your stating something. You obviously have a superiroty complex regarding this since you belive your statements are all facts which is nonsense.

Those are facts you cannot deny.

Now lets hear your "facts" that Kain obtained it.

6. I guarantee if another game came out he would likely do far far more impressive tihngs noe he is an infnite magic guardian, thing is, all of this part of your argument is useless becayse your guarantees nor mine mean little without proof

7. Facts? their not facts, their your own opinion on the situation, you dont seem to know what a fact is, a fact is something undeniable, like Kain is a vampire, thats a fact, however youve got simply opinions without argumetns, my argument is that it being optional is irrelvent since its a player decision which are also irrelvent in canon, yet his voice for each spell is relevent and canon since their in-universe lore.

Fact is, optional means its not 100% guarantee'd to be obtained. Fact is, Kain never used the spell in the entire plot story. Fact is, Kain has never soul ripped anyone. Fact is, the spell was never spoke about, and was unheard of again in the next 4 sequals, everything points to Kain not having the optional spell in the actual LOK Plot.

8. yes IF, but I have not, if you had played the LOK series through one or twice, you would know Kains spells are canon and how he is as powerful as I claim as does my proof. [/B]

Originally posted by Burning thought
9. Mortanious who in the storyline rips a soul from the underworld itself and planeted it in a body, infact Mortainious, the heavens knows how many soul stealers and Raziel, Kain all have soul powers, and thats if the big lump isnt frozen by a time spell, and thats simply argueing from the view that he does suddenly appear in a ridiculous fashion, otherwise he would be elminated by other means.

Actually give me a scenario and a name of who Kain/Raziel literally ripped a soul out of a physically healthy being.

If we go by the statistics of Nosgoth he would be elmianted by time immutability, something few universes have.
No he wouldnt because Nosgoth still has immutable timeline, unless the developers made Pyron part of the canon timeline and he was always supposed to excist in the timeline.
IUn which case Moebius and Azimoth would annilate him before his time comes to pass.

WHy dont you just say if Nosgoth had its time immutability taken away and randomy without any notification to the timeline which many beings can see appeared right inside the core of nosgoth then Pyron would destroy Nosgoth!!, thats basically what your saying, I could say the same with most FF universes, unforatley most of them wouldnt even have a chance against Pyron even if given Prep.

10. **** and all false, after a combination of failing arguments about materia not even in the same area as Spells in LOK, you fail even more by claiming that a players decision determines canon now? what nonsense. infact this can be useful ill use ** for it

Players decision does doesn't determine its canon, but the option "to go and get the spell, or to not go and get the spell" means its possible that in the canon storyline, it was NOT gotten. So unless you have evidence that it was gotten, then you can't say that he did get it, like i said earlier, everything suggests that he didn't get it.

11. So show me the proof of the vampire who actually does this?

12. Now your just getting tired, irriitated and because youve got no arguments you need to somehow prolong this nonsense, **** and **

13. If i were to quote yours Terry my profile would stretch a users browser several pages over for you....yet another bait...no argument.

1) so we see theres a single summonable, excellent

2) Dont know what DoC is, does it show canon materia and is also after AC?

3) rephrase this please, it doesnt look like English

I'll break it down for you so that even a 10 year old can understand it

You said materia is just blasts right?

If its just blasts, then what was Holy and Meteor? They were stated as the black materia and the white materia, but if they're just "blasts" then how can it be a Meteor? And how can Holy be a big wave of Energy? So then going by that logic the game was incorrect if it said it was "materia" because "materia" is just "blasts".

4) Probable, thing is these millions not seen are irrelvent, you cant base your argument around something nobody has seen....well actually YOU prob would...but thats why you fail at these debates.

Common sense BT, common sense.

FF7 guides? i thot FF7 was before AC (I know it was) so what about the guides?

Guides for FF7 (like Reunion Files, Ultimania Omega, Compilation) have no timeline, they're simply guides of the FF7 compilation, giving info about the FF7 world and characters.

Originally posted by Terryc250
But has Mortanious literally ripped out a soul from a perfectly healthy living being? Raziel steals souls after the victim basically is about to die.

Actually give me a scenario and a name of who Kain/Raziel literally ripped a soul out of a physically healthy being.

2. Think about it, say its Sephiroth vs Spiderman, there is no such thing as Sephiroth being in the Marvel timeline either, nor is it possible unless the developers did a collaberation, we're using our imaginations here: If Pyron is there right now, ignore everything else, he'd destroy Nosgoth, what can Moebius and Azimoth do to Pyron? "Soul rip" him? But have they ever Soul ripped anyone of Pyrons calibre before? Have they ever even Soul Ripped anyone before? Can they react faster then then the speed of light?

3. Because no one cares about the story, or timeline of Nosgoth,, "If Pyron is there and now" you can't say "Nope he can't because that didn't happen!" Obviously it didn't happen, we're using our imaginations here.

4. Materia magic and Spell magic are in the same "area" both are obtained for it to work, humans can obtain materia and use it, vampires can obtain the spell and use it.

5. Players decision does doesn't determine its canon, but the option "to go and get the spell, or to not go and get the spell" means its possible that in the canon storyline, it was NOT gotten. So unless you have evidence that it was gotten, then you can't say that he did get it, like i said earlier, everything suggests that he didn't get it.

6. Kain does it, how did Kain get spells? He went and obtained it.
Vorador has spells, most likely he went and obtained it as well.

7. I dont even know what *** means, your the one whos obviously getting "tired" here if your going to type nonsense like that, oh BT, ****** and *** k? ***. rofl.

8. Alright go ahead and do it, actually quote me on the ridiculous things i've said, i'll actually quote you with the things you've said, and lets see who gets more laughs shall we?

9.

a: Which already just by that blows your "materia is just blasts" theory out the window.

b. Dirge of Cerberus, its a game that takes place a couple years after the events of AC, yes it does have canon materia.

c. Maybe to someone who lacks intelligence.

I'll break it down for you so that even a 10 year old can understand it

You said materia is just blasts right?

If its just blasts, then what was Holy and Meteor? They were stated as the black materia and the white materia, but if they're just "blasts" then how can it be a Meteor? And how can Holy be a big wave of Energy? So then going by that logic the game was incorrect if it said it was "materia" because "materia" is just "blasts".

d. Uhh we've never seen Bahamut Sin, or even knew it existed until it was shown in AC, the materia Loz and Yazoo used on the roof very well could've been materia we've never seen before as well.

Common sense BT, common sense.

... AC is part of FF7, DoC is part of FF7, Crisis Core is part of FF7, Before Crisis is part of FF7.

Guides for FF7 (like Reunion Files, Ultimania Omega, Compilation) have no timeline, they're simply guides of the FF7 compilation, giving info about the FF7 world and characters.

1. But their not dead yet are they?

afaik no storyline character has done it but my memory is limited, can you give any base to them being healthy makes any diffrence? no....didnt think so either...its irrelvent either way.

2.
NO but thats fine because A: Marvels timeline is not immutable and B: it doesnt have the samne rules as Nosgoth, you woud have to literally say in the thread "nosgoth timeline is not immutable" for anyone other than LOK to survive the timeline, i think your getting confused about what immutable timelines are.

pyrons calibre? hes shown no calibre against Soul ripping so his size and strength is moot, unless you can prove size and strength mean something towards resistance to having your soul reaved? probably not...his "bigzor godzor!" hype is still floating around I see. Pyron cannot go zero to lightspeed in a split second. Especially not at full sized.

3. Your confused Terry, Nosgoth unlike most unvierses is immutable timelined, putting him in will get him destroyed by the force shown in-game as an object that destroys beings/objects that are not part of the timeline, its part of the LOK nosgoth planet.

4. ****

5.
No you see its not, read *** again, players decisions irrelvent, Kains words in-universe are, the fact their optional means nothing, unless you can base this on something?

6.
no i asked you to show me in the storyline or gameplay Vorador or any other going to claim the spell/object and using it, thus making it non unique to Kain, the interchangable player controlled options are what makes Materia most uncanon as well but their uncanon anyway.

7. Now you see this is where I know your not reading any of my posts, thats prob why ime having to repeat myself because your not reading any of it, if you had read it you would understand those stars ime using to answer your posts, as ime doing in this one with answers already given. **** for example was the point I made earlier, or do I need to hold your hand to make you understand indexing? how sad....

8.
Ive already told you its impossible, ill be quoting entire threads thus you would automatically win because its possible to quote perhaps a couple of things. unless ime allowed to simply post the entire threads, but this is pointless since I dont make fallacies unlike you, you seem to need other people to help you along lol which in the long run only shows weakness and they dont usually help to boot.

9.

a: no, it just proves theres one materia that isnt a blast...

b:

c. well maybe, fortunatley I dont so obviously you must have just goofed, either way when are they stated to be Materia after AC? hell perhaps their just like point A, they now have thier proof, what about the rest of the materia?

d. common sense? its common sense ot me that Kain saying he has the spell in-universe means he has the spell regardless of players choices, it prob is to most people who dont use gameplay, unfortunatley you do..fill in the gaps.

Sure their guides for the FF7, problem is now obviously they have been outdated and are showing uncaon relevences on Materia since AC which is after it shows just blasts unfortatley.

Originally posted by Terryc250
1. Kain only says it if the player chooses to get the optional spell, it doesn't change the fact that its "optional" again you're just repeated yourself, the same arguement i've already smashed.

Its a matter of actual PROOF or evidence whether kain went and obtained the spell in the plot storyline or not.

2. Having a description dialogue for it still makes it moot, think about it this way, IF Cloud were to have a description for all the optional materia in the game, would it mean Cloud actually obtained all of them in the plot? No it wouldn't.

3. The bottom line still remains that the spell/item/materia/weapon is [b]optional so unless there was something that suggests Kain actually went and obtained the optional spell, the "optional" factor still remains.

4. What have i stated about materia that i didn't have proof or evidence for?

5. I said "Even IF" Cloud said it, it wouldn't make a difference. He said its worthy of the necromancer, it never described the origin of the spell, or that it had anything to do with the plot storyline, it basically just described it saying that its worthy of the necromancer, if he said "With this spell, i can defeat so-and-so" THEN it would be canon, however; normally with a dialogue like that, the spell would be mandatory thus making it actually canon.

Nromally if there was a huge dialogue describing the origin and going into details about the spells, it wouldn't just be an "optional" spell, it would be a storyline spell.

Kain describing the spell just like any other optional spell makes it just that, nothing to do with the story.

6. He gives a description of the spell, doesn't change the fact that its optional, and theres no proof that he actually attained it in the plot.

7. Everything has to do with options, theres the choice the player makes, and theres the choice the actual canon Kain makes, we don't know what choices the actual canon Kain made we can only assume, but everything leads to Kain not actually acquiring that optional spell.

Of course having a description can mean it exists, but it doesn't mean that Cloud actually got it in the plot canon story.

8. Fact is, optional means its not 100% guarantee'd to be obtained. Fact is, Kain never used the spell in the entire plot story. Fact is, Kain has never soul ripped anyone. Fact is, the spell was never spoke about, and was unheard of again in the next 4 sequals, everything points to Kain not having the optional spell in the actual LOK Plot.

Those are facts you cannot deny.

Now lets hear your "facts" that Kain obtained it.

Hopefully he does, because so far he's done nothing impressive.

Thing is, there is proof and evidence of the lifestream. I ask for proof about Kain and evidence, but i get none. [/B]

1. Youve smashed nothing, since you have no proof or basis for claiming things, thus you automatically lose.

for the rest of this point ****

2. IF Cloud had a dialoge like the one I described where he doesnt describe gameplay, but describes the spelll as if it was part of the unvierse like Kain does then all of them would be canon, yet they are not.

3. Once again, Ime going to have to tell you why you fail since you cannt counter claim with evidence either so ime wasting my time but ive got time to waste, your talking about player decisions which are irrelvent to the story, canon and most of all anything at all, its kains words that make it canon whether or not the player bothers to get the spell and see them...this point will be known as ***

4. You keep stating that materia are like spells as ive already shown and as youve shown with your lack of comparable proof (i.e their interchangable AND have no speech from the characters) their nothing alike.

5. yes, the Necromancer is part of the story, full stop, the whole speech of the text is about the games universe, thats not a gameplay text, simple, *** may aslo help you and so would ****

6. he makes an in-unvierse speech on it, ****

7. And the choice the player makes is what your using, wheras Kain has already got in-universe speech for those spells thus making them canon, whether the player chooses to get them or not, or waste all his energy using the light spell in an already bright area is irrelvent, this is all part of your weak arguments you usually have based around gameplay, read **** and *** also

8. ofc heres the rub, all of these "facts" are gameplay things your speaking of, wheras the single time Kain speaks of the spell and gaining it shows he has the spell, your delusions of them not appering because he losses it or never had it mean nothing since nothing proves he doesnt have it, him not using it could simply be developer decisions or such, since weve alread ygot the canon speech however, he has the spell.

his facts are in him speaking of it, as I said before, Kain>>>>Terry or player decisions.

9. Ive given you it, you simply deny it randomy even though you have no counter proof, so you imediatley fail there unfortatley for you, you lost this debate pages back. either way if there is proof and evidence of what the Negative lfiestream actually does and if Sephiroth can use it to this extent please provide?...prob not....

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. But their not dead yet are they?
afaik no storyline character has done it but my memory is limited, can you give any base to them being healthy makes any diffrence? no....didnt think so either...its irrelvent either way.

NO but thats fine because A: Marvels timeline is not immutable and B: it doesnt have the samne rules as Nosgoth, you woud have to literally say in the thread "nosgoth timeline is not immutable" for anyone other than LOK to survive the timeline, i think your getting confused about what immutable timelines are.

Again, we're using our imaginations here, it has nothing to do with timelines.

pyrons calibre? hes shown no calibre against Soul ripping so his size and strength is moot, unless you can prove size and strength mean something towards resistance to having your soul reaved? probably not...his "bigzor godzor!" hype is still floating around I see. Pyron cannot go zero to lightspeed in a split second. Especially not at full sized.

Besides the fact that he's never soul ripped anyone in the entire story, what makes you think he can soul rip someone who is galaxies distance beaming at the planet at ftl?

3. Your confused Terry, Nosgoth unlike most unvierses is immutable timelined, putting him in will get him destroyed by the force shown in-game as an object that destroys beings/objects that are not part of the timeline, its part of the LOK nosgoth planet.

It's called using your imagination.

4. ****

5.
No you see its not, read *** again, players decisions irrelvent, Kains words in-universe are, the fact their optional means nothing, unless you can base this on something?

The fact that its optional means everything, means that it could've been gotten or it could've NOT been gotten, having dialogue doesn't change that fact.

6.
no i asked you to show me in the storyline or gameplay Vorador or any other going to claim the spell/object and using it, thus making it non unique to Kain, the interchangable player controlled options are what makes Materia most uncanon as well but their uncanon anyway.

Materia IS canon, but the reason why we don't know which is canon to the plot is NOT because they're interchangeable, its because a lot of them are OPTIONAL

Meaning we don't know which materia Cloud/Party actually obtains in the canon plot.

7. Now you see this is where I know your not reading any of my posts, thats prob why ime having to repeat myself because your not reading any of it, if you had read it you would understand those stars ime using to answer your posts, as ime doing in this one with answers already given. **** for example was the point I made earlier, or do I need to hold your hand to make you understand indexing? how sad....

anyone can type ***, or *****, thats jibberish, its not debating its youo conceding because you don't know what to say.

8.
Ive already told you its impossible, ill be quoting entire threads thus you would automatically win because its possible to quote perhaps a couple of things. unless ime allowed to simply post the entire threads, but this is pointless since I dont make fallacies unlike you, you seem to need other people to help you along lol which in the long run only shows weakness and they dont usually help to boot.

Posts like that are ridiculous.

And whats funny is you always try to bait me in almost every thread you post in, trying to ridicule me, i'll be reading random threads not even posting and i'll hear "Terry this" and "Terry that" from you, which is quite funny because i can easily bring up all the hilarious ridiculous things you've said since you've been a member here.

9.

a: no, it just proves theres one materia that isnt a blast...

b:

c. well maybe, fortunatley I dont so obviously you must have just goofed, either way when are they stated to be Materia after AC? hell perhaps their just like point A, they now have thier proof, what about the rest of the materia?

d. common sense? its common sense ot me that Kain saying he has the spell in-universe means he has the spell regardless of players choices, it prob is to most people who dont use gameplay, unfortunatley you do..fill in the gaps.

Sure their guides for the FF7, problem is now obviously they have been outdated and are showing uncaon relevences on Materia since AC which is after it shows just blasts unfortatley.

It makes ZERO sense for materia to be "retconned into blasts" just because there were materia you didn't know in AC, hell we didn't know wtf Bahamut Sin was until they told us in the script what it was, Bahamut Sin was not a FF7 summon that was obtainable, the materia on the roof perhaps wasn't as well, or perhaps they were just a mixture of explosive materia like Fire3, Dynamite, flame thrower, etc, or similar magic

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. Youve smashed nothing, since you have no proof or basis for claiming things, thus you automatically lose.

2. IF Cloud had a dialoge like the one I described where he doesnt describe gameplay, but describes the spelll as if it was part of the unvierse like Kain does then all of them would be canon, yet they are not.

3. Once again, Ime going to have to tell you why you fail since you cannt counter claim with evidence either so ime wasting my time but ive got time to waste, your talking about player decisions which are irrelvent to the story, canon and most of all anything at all, its kains words that make it canon whether or not the player bothers to get the spell and see them...this point will be known as ***

4. You keep stating that materia are like spells as ive already shown and as youve shown with your lack of comparable proof (i.e their interchangable AND have no speech from the characters) their nothing alike.

5. yes, the Necromancer is part of the story, full stop, the whole speech of the text is about the games universe, thats not a gameplay text, simple, *** may aslo help you and so would ****

6. he makes an in-unvierse speech on it, ****

7. And the choice the player makes is what your using, wheras Kain has already got in-universe speech for those spells thus making them canon, whether the player chooses to get them or not, or waste all his energy using the light spell in an already bright area is irrelvent, this is all part of your weak arguments you usually have based around gameplay, read **** and *** also

8. ofc heres the rub, all of these "facts" are gameplay things your speaking of, wheras the single time Kain speaks of the spell and gaining it shows he has the spell, your delusions of them not appering because he losses it or never had it mean nothing since nothing proves he doesnt have it, him not using it could simply be developer decisions or such, since weve alread ygot the canon speech however, he has the spell.
his facts are in him speaking of it, as I said before, Kain>>>>Terry or player decisions.

Kain giving a description of it is only if he obtains it, doesnt change the fact that its optional and he might not have obtained it, again the developers aren't going to put in a spell with silence in the game, of course theres a description for every spell, but the spell is still optional and theres still a question if he obtained it in the canon story or not, again i've showed you an example of materia having dialogue for it, yet it was never obtained in the actual canon story.

9. Ive given you it, you simply deny it randomy even though you have no counter proof, so you imediatley fail there unfortatley for you, you lost this debate pages back. either way if there is proof and evidence of what the Negative lfiestream actually does and if Sephiroth can use it to this extent please provide?...prob not....

The negative lifestream is just the lifestream with j-cells, thus under Sephiroth influence.

The lifestream by FACT, is the source of life,energy,power,magic

In AC, Sephiroth created the SHM Spirit bodies out of the Negative lifestream, thus giving them life, the SHM (who have a bit of control over it being sephiroths remnants) used the negative lifestream used the negative lifestream as magic in AC, having j-cells in it does not mean it loses its power.

Originally posted by Terryc250
They basically are dead, he has to weaken them so that their body is weak before Raziel can pluck out the soul, it makes a huge difference, do you really think Raziel can beat Pyron til he's at the brink of death?

Dude, Marvels timeline IS immutable to ANY non-Marvel character, its IMPOSSIBLE for any non-Marvel character to alter a Marvel timeline thats common sense / logic , the only way its possible for a non-marvel character to alter a marvel timeline, is if the developers did a collaberation

Again, we're using our imaginations here, it has nothing to do with timelines.

And Kain has shown that he has not soul ripped anyone in the entire LOK story.

Besides the fact that he's never soul ripped anyone in the entire story, what makes you think he can soul rip someone who is galaxies distance beaming at the planet at ftl?

Every universe's timeline is immutable to any character that doesn't exist in that universe, common sense, how can a character that doesn't exist alter a timeline?

It's called using your imagination.

[b]***

**** means nothing to me, thats just nonsense, to me it means you concede.

The fact that its optional means everything, means that it could've been gotten or it could've NOT been gotten, having dialogue doesn't change that fact.

Go look at the beginning intro of BO1, he's using spells, that right there proves that vampires are capable of learning spells.

Materia IS canon, but the reason why we don't know which is canon to the plot is NOT because they're interchangeable, its because a lot of them are OPTIONAL

Meaning we don't know which materia Cloud/Party actually obtains in the canon plot.

No you're repeating shit i've already replied to, and you reply to it by repeating the same "Kain descibes it!!" when i've told you it doesn't change the fact that its optional already.

anyone can type ***, or *****, thats jibberish, its not debating its youo conceding because you don't know what to say.

Actually I don't state things without reason, i don't go "Sephiroth will WIN!" without any knowledge about his opponent, unlike you who goes "KAIN WINS BY TK AND STABBING HIMTHROUGH THE HEAD!!!"

Posts like that are ridiculous.

And whats funny is you always try to bait me in almost every thread you post in, trying to ridicule me, i'll be reading random threads not even posting and i'll hear "Terry this" and "Terry that" from you, which is quite funny because i can easily bring up all the hilarious ridiculous things you've said since you've been a member here.

So then what is Holy? What is Meteor? What is Vincents proto-type materia? What about the giant materias?

Meteor and Holy happened before AC, i've already taught you what retconned means, it cannot just simply change from being summons to being "blasts" overnight without explanation, there needs to be a story behind it.

If theres its a spell thats optional, then it means it could've been obtained or it could not of been obtained, thats what optional means, you only get dialogue IF its obtained, but wheres the proof that in the actual plot canon story, Kain actually went and got it? Everything points to him NOT getting it.

So then wheres the explanation on the whole retcon occurance? Why aren't they telling us the truth about Materia?

It makes ZERO sense for materia to be "retconned into blasts" just because there were materia you didn't know in AC, hell we didn't know wtf Bahamut Sin was until they told us in the script what it was, Bahamut Sin was not a FF7 summon that was obtainable, the materia on the roof perhaps wasn't as well, or perhaps they were just a mixture of explosive materia like Fire3, Dynamite, flame thrower, etc, or similar magic [/B]

But their not dead, they have just as less resistance to having their souls ripped out as when their alive, its not like Raziel is breaking defences, his sword goes straight through them anyway to take the soul or he just rips it out with his hand....your talking gameplay again.

No but heres what you dont understand, Nosgoths timeline is within itself Immutable, no one in Nosgoth can change the timeline, Marvels timeline is not immutable..., this point will be known as $

W8 a min, first your not the thread starter, how far tehy start away from eachother is not under your control, who says he is galaxies away?

***? you dont have any recorded points under that....

No it means ive made a point earlier that covers this point, read my posts, anyone with half a mind could realise ime using those to copy points....

Having Kains dialogue means everything, the optional part means nothing because thats a player decision which is not canon, how can you not understand this?

yeh he can use spells, i asked for proof he went and got them the same way as Kain or that their the same as kains spells....also ime talming about optional player used in-game stuff, like materia is chosen by players to use on other characters

Its nothing to do with them being optional, unique means the character gains them because their part of their unique abilities, since their not unique, you cannot use materia...

Youve told me? wow damn, my debates lost becauyse you disagree? ...youve got no evidence, ime simply retelling you my opinion, only mine actually has kain speaking and your using player decisions to prop your falling argument.

Easily because theres not many, I dont even need to refer to a post, all of yours are silly half the time, everyone who actually reads your posts knows your a massive gameplay reader and hugely bias to Sephiroth.

I dont know what they are Terry, hopefully the game tells you later?

No, half of the materia are uncanon anyway, thus those already shown as canon are canon, if Meteor is a materia fine, but all the usual ones are all blasts as shown in AC which shows what materia really are.

Nothing poits to him not getting it apart from gameplay decisions from players...thats your canon? ....no, kains speech tells us he gains it if the player chooses something its irrelvent.

"perhaps perhaps" well perhaps their all retconned as it shows, all your guessing is useless, if it tells us its Sin bahumaht as weak as it is then thats proof....