Sith Force Tournament

Given the full context of the Yoda quote, that does smack of hyperbole. It not only mentions it being his viewpoint once, but twice. "His vision," and "he saw the truth."

Any great Jedi who stands for all that the Jedi Order, and by association, the Light Side of the Force, could be considered an avatar of the light. As for the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' part, it strikes me as completely at odds with what we know of Yoda that he would think such a thought...but since it does come from his viewpoint, technically (and if we're being fair here), it's a very fallible statement.

However, being over 800 and having nearly all of the knowledge of the Jedi Order at his disposal, it might be a well informed statement.

Well, consider, Enyalus. In terms of personal leadership, Yoda failed to see or to stop the signs of the growing darkness, to see Palpatine for what he was, and failed to stop the Empire. He laments this further in the novelization -- as a leader, Yoda failed. Especially if he refers to himself as the most powerful Jedi in history without merit, which smacks of narcissism and arrogance. Hardly the poster (child? alien?) for the principles of the Jedi Order, so I doubt it is referring to anything other than power.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, consider, Enyalus. In terms of personal leadership, Yoda failed to see or to stop the signs of the growing darkness, to see Palpatine for what he was, and failed to stop the Empire. He laments this further in the novelization -- as a leader, Yoda failed. Especially if he refers to himself as the most powerful Jedi in history without merit, which smacks of narcissism and arrogance. Hardly the poster (child? alien?) for the principles of the Jedi Order, so I doubt it is referring to anything other than power.

Or he could have just been following in the footsteps of other useless "great" Jedi Masters like Odan-Urr and Vodo-Siosk Baas. And Arca Jeth and Thon weren't much better in that department.

But, if it's coming from his view, which it seems to suggest, then he isn't in a position to adequately judge his own power with respect to them. Vodo seemed to be pretty elite, given the students he turned out and the fact that he didn't need a lightsaber to go blow-for-blow with Exar Kun, for instance.

Don't accuse me of point dodging, please. You look like a big enough ass already. You're the one who attempted to undermine the credibility and reputation of Masters Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto. The cold, dark truth to the matter is that you're not in a position to. The novelization and visual guide laud the abilities of those three swordsmen; your opinion is nothing in the face of that. But, please, do continue. Your inherent egotism that directs you to defy canon only with your opinion is something that all of us are enjoying. With each post, you prove that -- no matter what people might say -- I'm not the most arrogant person around here.

You sure like to type alot but you have very little to say. You continue to avoid the point that the 3 Jedi mentioned are not the best swordsman in the order, because Yoda and Mace are conclusively far above them. Its possible they are next in line though thats being very generous and your point would still be very weak.

By the way, please prove that Marka Ragnos is more powerful than those three Jedi. 😉

This is just desperate, there isnt anyone on the entire forum who would agree that those Jedi masters are stronger than Ragnos(besides perhaps LS). On top of that, its irrelevent because the burden of proof is on you not on me. You have to prove that the 3 Jedi are comparable to Ragnos, it was your point and you are the one trying to prove Sidious is stronger than Ragnos.

[see, when I lose all generosity, I can throw out points like that and effectively stall your entire argument]

Gtfo, your logic is laughable as is your arrogance.

When you can prove that the omniscient narrator is limited, we'll readdress this. Until then, don't bring this up again.

When you can prove that the omniscient narrator is *not* limited, as is the convention of fiction novels, than we'll readress this. Stop being an arrogant fool and realize that the burden of proof is on you, and you have absolutely nothing to give me.

No one denied that Palpatine lost the duel. But Palpatine, skill-to-skill, fought Windu to a standstill, hence my point. Though I do appreciate the backhanded concession; seems to be prominent practice these days.

It is not a concession. You put words in my mouth, and then in your own little dreamworld thought you had refuted me. Palpatine did *not* fight Windu to a standstill, he lost plain and simple. If you meant that Palpatine could match Windu with a saber without taking into account any talents or abilities than you should have been more clear, though thats unrealistic and not even worth bringing up in a debate. In reality, Palpatine was outmatched by Mace, the end.

It is relevant. No one is proclaiming that it is a weakness. The only weakness here is your comprehension of basic linguistics. The point is that Palpatine managed to demonstrate lightsaber prowess equal to that of Mace "I-invented-the-deadliest-lightsaber-form-and-was-the-youngest-member-of-the-Jedi-High-Council-ever" Windu despite the fact that he hadn't practiced in years. I bring this up only to highlight his skills. It's relevant; deal with it.

Theoretically if Palpatine practiced every day against live opponents than yes his skill would increase, but your dealing with what ifs that are completely irrelevent in a debate.

Again, I'm rather insulted with the idea of you lecturing me on anything. If I need tips on the quickest methods by which to gain weight or social isolation, I'll come to you. In the interim, do keep your advice to yourself, sir.

I'll lecture you whenever I want, especially when your arguments are dead wrong. Im very thin btw, and you making personal attacks on me just shows how desperate you really are.

Hmm. The interior is ruined, the glass was shattered, people were dead, machines were obliterated, the lights were out. The tower was effectively destroyed. Deal with it.

Rofl. Show me exactly where the the glass shattered, and people were dead(besides GM)? Or even the lights? I just watched the ending again and all of that is a lie. The only thing that happened was the area around them, approx 20 ft, was smoldering with some flames and there was some debri. This is still a far cry from your statement that the tower got destroyed. Also you still havent shown how Palpatine surviving his own lightning is even relevent.

It is. Put down the chips and pick up a book, sir. All you have for Ragnos is implications of power. I have feats, statements, and implications for Palpatine. When you put them on the table, I'll always come out with the better hand. You're not going to change that. 😉

My interpretation is the correct one. Anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation carries the burden of proof. For example, the statement: "Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord ever" in the context of a duel with Yoda. Should you wish to contest that, it's your burden to prove.

Arrogance at its finest. Everyone notice how he continues to trumpet his own interpretation as the 'straightforward' interpretation without any sources or logic to back him up. And for the last time, the burden of proof is indeed on you. Its your argument, back it up. If your sources operate under different rules than the normal third person omniscient narrator limited which I gave a link to, than show us. Otherwise your just talking out of your ass.

Again, we're not going through this again. I've taken enough time to wade in through your idiocy and attempt to establish a mental bridge from my world (the real one) to your land of fiction and egotism where everything you say is fact. Failure to comply will destroy this bridge and I'm doing this out of charity since, believe me, I'm not obligated to prove Palpatine's superiority. We've been through it all before.

Do you think I enjoy arguing with someone as arrogant, rude, and unintelligent as you? If your frustrated because your argument is dead and you have no point, do us all a favor and leave.

It's not quite the same. If we're to believe Labyrinth of Evil, the Force had been 'darkening' for two hundred years prior to the birth of Darth Sidious, something that Count Dooku was aware of during the Clone Wars. Numerous sources have lauded Yoda's great insight and sensitivity to the currents of the Force, supposedly more profound than any other living Jedi at the time, and yet he either could not sense it or did and refused to do anything about it. If what Advent suggests is true, that Yoda refers to himself as the greatest and most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known, it smacks of a deep rooted arrogance and narcissism. And this, at the height of his great epiphany. Underlining this fact that he failed to stop Palpatine, despite the fact that he had a political relationship with the man for many, many years, suggests an acute blindness and unwillingness to change, something that the novelization goes into greater detail.

So it's hardly a moral accolade or one of example.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
You sure like to type alot but you have very little to say. You continue to avoid the point that the 3 Jedi mentioned are not the best swordsman in the order, because Yoda and Mace are conclusively far above them. Its possible they are next in line though thats being very generous and your point would still be very weak.

This is just desperate, there isnt anyone on the entire forum who would agree that those Jedi masters are stronger than Ragnos(besides perhaps LS). On top of that, its irrelevent because the burden of proof is on you not on me. You have to prove that the 3 Jedi are comparable to Ragnos, it was your point and you are the one trying to prove Sidious is stronger than Ragnos.

Gtfo, your logic is laughable as is your arrogance.

When you can prove that the omniscient narrator is *not* limited, as is the convention of fiction novels, than we'll readress this. Stop being an arrogant fool and realize that the burden of proof is on you, and you have absolutely nothing to give me.

It is not a concession. You put words in my mouth, and then in your own little dreamworld thought you had refuted me. Palpatine did *not* fight Windu to a standstill, he lost plain and simple. If you meant that Palpatine could match Windu with a saber without taking into account any talents or abilities than you should have been more clear, though thats unrealistic and not even worth bringing up in a debate. In reality, Palpatine was outmatched by Mace, the end.

The fact that Mace developed the deadliest lightsaber form and was the youngest member of the council ever is a strength. Sidious not practicing(by the way where is the proof of this?) is a weakness. How is this so hard to understand? If Ragnos ever fought Sidious than his lack of practice would be exploited.

Theoretically if Palpatine practiced every day against live opponents than yes his skill would increase, but your dealing with what ifs that are completely irrelevent in a debate.

I'll lecture you whenever I want, especially when your arguments are dead wrong. Im very thin btw, and you making personal attacks on me just shows how desperate you really are.

Rofl. Show me exactly where the the glass shattered, and people were dead(besides GM)? Or even the lights? I just watched the ending again and all of that is a lie. The only thing that happened was the area around them, approx 20 ft, was smoldering with some flames and there was some debri. This is still a far cry from your statement that the tower got destroyed. Also you still havent shown how Palpatine surviving his own lightning is even relevent.

The implications of Ragnos power are mostly statements and feats by other ancients. Along with their unquestioned obedience. How is your Palpatine argument better? From what I have seen, it is rather sad. You only have the better hand in your own disturbed imagination.

Arrogance at its finest. Everyone notice how he continues to trumpet his own interpretation as the 'straightforward' interpretation without any sources or logic to back him up. And for the last time, the burden of proof is indeed on you. Its your argument, back it up. If your sources operate under different rules than the normal third person omniscient narrator limited which I gave a link to, than show us. Otherwise your just talking out of your ass.

Do you think I enjoy arguing with someone as arrogant, rude, and unintelligent as you? If your frustrated because your argument is dead and you have no point, do us all a favor and leave.

Originally posted by Gideon
It's not quite the same. If we're to believe Labyrinth of Evil, the Force had been 'darkening' for two hundred years prior to the birth of Darth Sidious, something that Count Dooku was aware of during the Clone Wars.

True enough. It clouded all Jedi perception and made the future very difficult to predict.

Originally posted by Gideon
Numerous sources have lauded Yoda's great insight and sensitivity to the currents of the Force, supposedly more profound than any other living Jedi at the time, and yet he either could not sense it or did and refused to do anything about it. If what Advent suggests is true, that Yoda refers to himself as the greatest and most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known, it smacks of a deep rooted arrogance and narcissism. And this, at the height of his great epiphany. Underlining this fact that he failed to stop Palpatine, despite the fact that he had a political relationship with the man for many, many years, suggests an acute blindness and unwillingness to change, something that the novelization goes into greater detail.

I'm not understanding what you're attempting to say here. The first part sounds like you're establishing Yoda as being more knowledgable and wise than anyone else alive. Then the second half seems to say that Yoda's insight was indeed flawed and even after his epiphany he wasn't able to stop Sidious. So...are you saying that if what Advent says is true, then Yoda is indeed the fallible source of that quote and it shouldn't be taken as canon? If that's your stance, then based on the context of Advent's quote, I'd agree. If not, then I've completely misunderstood and deserve to be called an idiot, lol.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
You sure like to type alot but you have very little to say. You continue to avoid the point that the 3 Jedi mentioned are not the best swordsman in the order, because Yoda and Mace are conclusively far above them. Its possible they are next in line though thats being very generous and your point would still be very weak.

READ.

Did I state that Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar were the best swordsmen in the Order? Nope. I said that they were "celebrated swordsmen" lauded for their ability and cited those sources. They are among the best in the Order.

DEAL WITH IT.

This is just desperate, there isnt anyone on the entire forum who would agree that those Jedi masters are stronger than Ragnos(besides perhaps LS). On top of that, its irrelevent because the burden of proof is on you not on me. You have to prove that the 3 Jedi are comparable to Ragnos, it was your point and you are the one trying to prove Sidious is stronger than Ragnos.

READ.

Did I state that Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar were comparable to Ragnos? No. The point made was that Palpatine butchered three of the Order's finest swordsmen in seconds, you moron.

As far as 'desperation' goes, I'm not interested in your fallacious appeal to the majority (even I agree that he's stronger). Since you're keen on being a total dickhead, I want you to prove that Ragnos is conclusively more powerful than the Jedi that Palpatine murdered.

Gtfo, your logic is laughable as is your arrogance.

Not nearly as funny as your inability to prove a point.

When you can prove that the omniscient narrator is *not* limited, as is the convention of fiction novels, than we'll readress this. Stop being an arrogant fool and realize that the burden of proof is on you, and you have absolutely nothing to give me.

I'd suggest leaving it to Advent, GV. She is taking your 'point' and applying it in ways you're incapable of. But not even she is proving it.

It is not a concession. You put words in my mouth, and then in your own little dreamworld thought you had refuted me. Palpatine did *not* fight Windu to a standstill, he lost plain and simple. If you meant that Palpatine could match Windu with a saber without taking into account any talents or abilities than you should have been more clear, though thats unrealistic and not even worth bringing up in a debate. In reality, Palpatine was outmatched by Mace, the end.

It's 'unrealistic' that Palpatine was Windu's equal when Mace was submerged in Vaapad? Yet, oddly enough, that's just what the novelization says.

The fact that Mace developed the deadliest lightsaber and was the youngest member of the coucil is a strength. Sidious not practicing(by the way where is the proof of this?) is a weakness. How is this so hard to understand? If Ragnos ever fought Sidious than his lack of practice would be exploited.

Jesus F. Christ, you complete imbecile. READ.

PALPATINE DID NOT PRACTICE FOR THIRTEEN YEARS; HIS LIGHTSABER WAS BURIED IN A STATUE. HE HIMSELF STATES IN RODV THAT HE ONLY USES A LIGHTSABER TO HUMILATE THE JEDI. HE STILL MANAGED TO DEMONSTRATE ABILITY THAT IS EQUAL TO MACE'S OWN, EVEN WHEN THE JEDI MASTER IS SUBMERGED IN VAAPAD. THAT IS A SIGN OF EXTREMELY CAPABLE SKILL WITH A LIGHTSABER.

Theoretically if Palpatine practiced every day against live opponents than yes his skill would increase, but your dealing with what ifs that are completely irrelevent in a debate.

PALPATINE DID NOT PRACTICE FOR THIRTEEN YEARS; HIS LIGHTSABER WAS BURIED IN A STATUE. HE HIMSELF STATES IN RODV THAT HE ONLY USES A LIGHTSABER TO HUMILATE THE JEDI. HE STILL MANAGED TO DEMONSTRATE ABILITY THAT IS EQUAL TO MACE'S OWN, EVEN WHEN THE JEDI MASTER IS SUBMERGED IN VAAPAD. THAT IS A SIGN OF EXTREMELY CAPABLE SKILL WITH A LIGHTSABER.

I'll lecture you whenever I want, especially when your arguments are dead wrong. Im very thin btw, and you making personal attacks on me just shows how desperate you really are.

Yes, I'm sure you're thin, muscular, drive a BMW, have a smokin' hot girlfriend, and as you walk, the ground trembles beneath you, testament to your uberness.

We're not all morons, around here. For the most part, it sticks to just a handful of you. Your lectures are ridiculous and only serve to underline how big of an idiot you really are. So if you are compelled to continue, please do. It's not like your credibility would actually improve, anyways.

Rofl. Show me exactly where the the glass shattered, and people were dead(besides GM)? Or even the lights? I just watched the ending again and all of that is a lie. The only thing that happened was the area around them, approx 20 ft, was smoldering with some flames and there was some debri. This is still a far cry from your statement that the tower got destroyed. Also you still havent shown how Palpatine surviving his own lightning is even relevent.

The glass exploded, the stormtroopers were killed. It's not a lie. Deal with it, you moron. The entire interior of the observation tower was obliterated.

The implications of Ragnos power are mostly statements and feats by other ancients. Along with their unquestioned obedience. How is your Palpatine argument better? From what I have seen, it is rather sad. You only have the better hand in your own disturbed imagination.

I'm not interested in his unquestioned obedience. Ragnos relied on manipulation almost every bit as Palpatine did, and ruled a bumpkin sized blip on the galactic map. Sidious ruled thousands of times the territory as the unquestioned dictator of the galaxy. Far more impressive. I have more statements supporting Palpatine and greater feats. Deal with it.

Arrogance at its finest. Everyone notice how he continues to trumpet his own interpretation as the 'straightforward' interpretation without any sources or logic to back him up. And for the last time, the burden of proof is indeed on you. Its your argument, back it up. If your sources operate under different rules than the normal third person omniscient narrator limited which I gave a link to, than show us. Otherwise your just talking out of your ass.

It's straightforward because I can read, you moron. Surely there's someone amongst your people who does something other than eat.

Do you think I enjoy arguing with someone as arrogant, rude, and unintelligent as you? If your frustrated because your argument is dead and you have no point, do us all a favor and leave.

I'm not interested in your lectures or criticisms on intellect. Since you like to appeal to the majority, would you like to ask the forum which one of us they believe is smarter? As for being rude and arrogant, you can quite handily stop me by not acting like a complete moron.

Originally posted by Enyalus
True enough. It clouded all Jedi perception and made the future very difficult to predict.

It began to cloud the Force and disrupt the Jedi's ability to read the future, yes. But nothing indicates that the problem was profound until the advent of the Clone Wars. It is something that individuals such as Sifo-Dyas and Count Dooku were able to see, but not, apparently, Yoda. And if he did see it, he did absolutely nothing to change it. Again, this disregard speaks of great personal fallibility. While all Jedi are fallible, such a deep lack of discourse seems to conflict with the idea that the accolade of 'avatar of light' that Yoda is given is a moral accomplishment.

I'm not understanding what you're attempting to say here. The first part sounds like you're establishing Yoda as being more knowledgable and wise than anyone else alive. Then the second half seems to say that Yoda's insight was indeed flawed and even after his epiphany he wasn't able to stop Sidious. So...are you saying that if what Advent says is true, then Yoda is indeed the fallible source of that quote and it shouldn't be taken as canon? If that's your stance, then based on the context of Advent's quote, I'd agree. If not, then I've completely misunderstood and deserve to be called an idiot, lol.

You're not an idiot; you've got half of it right. Yoda demonstrates a greater sensivity to the currents of the Force than any other member of the Council -- Mace Windu himself is one of the sources in the novelization that mentions Yoda's superiority in that area. That he either did not sense or fail to prevent the rise of the dark side is a personal failing. He was arrogant or blind. Or both. Again, not something that the ideal Jedi is. So it's certainly not an accolade for morality or practicality, because -- in some ways -- Yoda was a failure. He laments as much in the tail end of the novelization, after his fight with Sidious. The quote seems to support the idea that Yoda was simply the strongest Jedi, not the best.

Ah, I get it. Most of that was addressed to my 'upholding the ideal of the Jedi Order would make you an avatar of light' comment.

If we take your interpretation of events (seemingly backed up by numerous sources) leading up to the Galactic Empire, then - namely that Yoda was either fallible, arrogant, apathetic, or a mix of each - that quote about him being the 'most devastatingly powerful foe of the darkness' would no longer be "fact," given the point of view it is stated from. Yes?

This might make an interesting point for PH when we get to him.

Qui-gon was the one who focused on the here adn now.

Yoda rarely, if ever, meditated on the Unifying force.

Jedi arrogance and complacency led to the 1st Jedi Purge...

History seems to just repeat itself alot huh?

History always repeats itself. It's literally a chronal loop. Scientists have charted it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Ah, I get it. Most of that was addressed to my 'upholding the ideal of the Jedi Order would make you an avatar of light' comment.

Yes, correct. It's certainly not a moral or personal accolade.

If we take your interpretation of events (seemingly backed up by numerous sources) leading up to the Galactic Empire, then - namely that Yoda was either fallible, arrogant, apathetic, or a mix of each - that quote about him being the 'most devastatingly powerful foe of the darkness' would no longer be "fact," given the point of view it is stated from. Yes?

That is just the point. The narrator refers to him as an avatar of light and identifies his realization, his great epiphany, as the truth. Even if the statement itself comes from Yoda's perspective, nothing indicates that is is a false one.

This might make an interesting point for PH when we get to him.

Certainly. Read Dark Rendezvous for further insight to Yoda and Count Dooku; it's one of my top three favorites.

Yoda - and all the other Jedi - were arrogant. He admits as much, doesn't he? They failed to recognize what was going on around them, and they paid the price.

Originally posted by Faunus
Yoda - and all the other Jedi - were arrogant. He admits as much, doesn't he? They failed to recognize what was going on around them, and they paid the price.

Yeah. I've got DR, LoF, and Obsession lying around here. I haven't read the latter at all, and it's been half a year at least since I've read the former.

EDIT: @ Faunus: Yeah, he says something to Obi-Wan about arrogance becoming a more and more common trait among the Jedi. Although, nothing specifically about the Council or himself. Seems to imply the younger generation, but my interpretation could be wrong.

The "latter" is awesome. Read it.

Also of note; I was watching The Bourne Supremacy, and the Clone Wars ad that popped up showed Kit Fisto wielding two lightsabers and fighting a fully-armed Grievous. It looked cool.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yeah. I've got DR, LoF, and Obsession lying around here. I haven't read the latter at all, and it's been half a year at least since I've read the former.

EDIT: @ Faunus: Yeah, he says something to Obi-Wan about arrogance becoming a more and more common trait among the Jedi. Although, nothing specifically about the Council or himself. Seems to imply the younger generation, but my interpretation could be wrong.

Kinda clears that up.

Originally posted by Faunus
"Even the older, more experienced ones."

Kinda clears that up.

Heh. That part slipped my mind completely until you mentioned it. Danke.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Yep, and let's watch as Gideon, LS, and crewnies ignore this and wait for an opportunity to flame me.

Yes, because this world spins all around you, doesn't it? I'm baffled when people accuse me of egotism and make statements like that. Allow me to make this perfectly clear: my impatience with you stems from your previous, customary behavior: your disgusting perversion, which knows no bounds, your habitual tendancy to spam, and your stubbornness -- like it or not, the idea that Vader "isn't good at smart" because he "was outwitted by Ackbar" is a bullshit idea. It's dumb. When I pointed that out to you, rather than concede and reevaluate your stance, you argued it with me and then bitched that I was being a jerk and that "was not what [you] said!" You lied, in essence. I'm impatient with you because when people were grilling you left and right, I suggested that you had a modicum of intelligence. And you repay me by acting like a moron and then going on eight paragraph diatribes about me and my relative debating ability as if you're some source on debating. You're not. So, while it may be true that I'm being harsh on you, you can stop that -- like Great Vengeance (seriously, have you read this guy's shitty arguments?) -- by stop acting like a moron.

Great Vengeance was so obtuse that the guy who was arguing the same thing was repeatedly getting frustrated with how idiotic he was acting. That's a fine indicator that he is the constant problem, no one else.