Sith Force Tournament

Originally posted by Gideon
The statement regarding Anakin is thus:

"This is Anakin Skywalker: the most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation."

The statement regarding Yoda, as you supplied, refers to him as "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known." First, the narrator provides the conditional 'perhaps.'

The 'perhaps' is added because it is clearly reflecting Anakin's own thoughts on himself, as most scenes in the book are written in the same fashion. If the narration were truly all-knowing, then there would be no 'perhaps'.

Second, Mace Windu also refers to Skywalker as the most powerful Jedi alive. In a manner of speaking, they're correct. As Yoda would later make a similar conditional in Dark Rendezvous, "greatness" and "power" can be defined in more than one way: he refers to Dooku and Skywalker each as the greatest of the Temple's students with separate conditions. In terms of raw potency, raw energy, and a primal connection to the Force -- Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi ever. He just doesn't have access to his full measure of power.

That idea doesn't hold any water, because if it were referring specifically to his unrivaled raw power and connection, then there would be no 'perhaps' as he would factually be the most powerful in that regard. Again, let's review entire passages to clear up apparent confusion:

"This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

HoloNet features call him the Hero With No Fear. And why not? What should he be afraid of?"

Is there any other way to construe being directly named "the fastest"? Or "the strongest"? Or "the best there has ever been", etc.? Short answer: No.

Look at what it says, "and he knows it". If that's the case, then I'd conclude that this is a clear example of the third-person limited.

The omniscient narrator refers to Yoda as being an "avatar of light" that encompassed "the lineage of the Jedi" before it can be construed that Yoda referred to himself as the most powerful foe of the darkness. That it continues to refer to Yoda's realization as the truth suggests that there is no discrepency.

See above; note that there's not necessarily an indication that the initial text is Anakin's POV. But as we see, it frankly is.

It's only the truth from his perspective. It doesn't matter whether or not it initially seems from an omniscient source. What Great Vengeance and I are saying is that narration can appear third-person, despite being limited to a first-person viewpoint.

Unless you're suggesting that Yoda -- in his great epiphany -- was overcome by narcissism and referred to himself as the best there ever was.

"Seen glimpses of this truth, we all have," Yoda said sadly. "Our arrogance it is, which has stopped us from fully opening our eyes."

"Too old I was," Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way."

Yoda admits to arrogance on several occasions, even when the truth can be seen right between the lines. Wise, absolutely. Perfect, not in the least bit. Just because he's Grandmaster of the Order doesn't mean he's incapable of fault. Yoda very may well consider himself the most powerful Jedi ever to exist, do you have proof of the contrary, something concrete? If not, I'm not sure why we're even discussing this.

Even if the statement itself comes from Yoda's perspective, nothing indicates that is is a false one.

...

Nothing indicates that is a true one either; which would render it invalid as evidence.

Regarding the claim that all of those statements are taken from the perspective of the individual whom they are about.

Taken from the interjected synopsis of Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Revenge of the Sith novelization:

"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi: a phenomenal pilot who doesn't like to fly. A devastating warrior who'd rather not fight. A negotiator without peer who frankly prefers to sit alone in a quiet cave and mediate. Jedi Master. General in the Grand Army of the Republic. Member of the Jedi Council. And yet, inside, he feels like he is none of those things. Inside, he feels like a padawan.."

And yet, a few paragraphs down:

"He is modest, centered, and always kind. He is the ultimate Jedi."

Explain this contradiction for me, please. Because if we apply the logic of your claim, Obi-Wan thinks of himself as a devastating warrior and a phenomenal pilot, yet that he is also always modest, kind, and centered, and -- lastly -- that he feels like he is none of these things and just a padawan.

READ.

Did I state that Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar were the best swordsmen in the Order? Nope. I said that they were "celebrated swordsmen" lauded for their ability and cited those sources. They are among the best in the Order.

DEAL WITH IT.

",manhandled three of the Jedi's greatest swordsmen in seconds," This is directly from your original argument. Obviously this is in error, because they are not among the greatest. Yoda and Mace are the greatest by a large margin. I will allow that its possible they are next in line, but thats unproven and again you have no real point because you cant substantiate how this is relevent to Sidious vs Ragnos.

READ.

Did I state that Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar were comparable to Ragnos? No. The point made was that Palpatine butchered three of the Order's finest swordsmen in seconds, you moron.

As far as 'desperation' goes, I'm not interested in your fallacious appeal to the majority (even I agree that he's stronger). Since you're keen on being a total dickhead, I want you to prove that Ragnos is conclusively more powerful than the Jedi that Palpatine murdered.

If they arent comparable to Ragnos, then again you have no real point here. The appeal to majority showed you how ridiculous your argument was, but it wasnt even necessary. The burden of proof is still on you moron, I dont need to prove anything.

Not nearly as funny as your inability to prove a point.

Inability to prove a point? Ive defeated you at every turn, your arguments are getting increasingly more fallacious and your mostly relying on ad hominem instead of disproving me with logic. But since your argument is dead, and your being embarrassed here, I can understand why your throwing your childlike tantrum.

I'd suggest leaving it to Advent, GV. She is taking your 'point' and applying it in ways you're incapable of. But not even she is proving it.

I agree that Advent owns, though you have already lost.

It's 'unrealistic' that Palpatine was Windu's equal when Mace was submerged in Vaapad? Yet, oddly enough, that's just what the novelization says.

Its unrealistic to disregard shatterpoint. Its a valid ability that complements Maces' saber skills and in reality Palpatine is outmatched against Mace.

[I]Jesus F. Christ, you complete imbecile. READ.

PALPATINE DID NOT PRACTICE FOR THIRTEEN YEARS; HIS LIGHTSABER WAS BURIED IN A STATUE. HE HIMSELF STATES IN RODV THAT HE ONLY USES A LIGHTSABER TO HUMILATE THE JEDI. HE STILL MANAGED TO DEMONSTRATE ABILITY THAT IS EQUAL TO MACE'S OWN, EVEN WHEN THE JEDI MASTER IS SUBMERGED IN VAAPAD. THAT IS A SIGN OF EXTREMELY CAPABLE SKILL WITH A LIGHTSABER.

So now your going to try to intimidate me by using overly large font? And again, you completely ignored my arguments. You havent addressed why lack of practice is somehow not a weakness that could be exploited, and you fail to address why speculation about how skilled Palpatine could of been is relevent in a debate.

Yes, I'm sure you're thin, muscular, drive a BMW, have a smokin' hot girlfriend, and as you walk, the ground trembles beneath you, testament to your uberness.

All that and more. 🙄

We're not all morons, around here. For the most part, it sticks to just a handful of you. Your lectures are ridiculous and only serve to underline how big of an idiot you really are. So if you are compelled to continue, please do. It's not like your credibility would actually improve, anyways.

Whatever, keep clinging to your delusions.

The glass exploded, the stormtroopers were killed. It's not a lie. Deal with it, you moron. The entire interior of the observation tower was obliterated.

Nope. I can post the youtube video if you want. Its conclusive, the glass didnt break and no stormtroopers were shown to be killed.

I'm not interested in his unquestioned obedience. Ragnos relied on manipulation almost every bit as Palpatine did, and ruled a bumpkin sized blip on the galactic map. Sidious ruled thousands of times the territory as the unquestioned dictator of the galaxy. Far more impressive. I have more statements supporting Palpatine and greater feats. Deal with it.

Not interested? I wasnt aware that your interest determined the validity of an argument. And Ragnos ruled with an iron fist, its canon. Sidious ruled a large empire yes but they almost all non force users that would have no hope of challenging him. Ragnos ruled in the golden age of the Sith, a time of unregulated natural selection where the strong live and the weak die. His inferiors were clearly quite capable with the force, and would of usurped his rule if Ragnos was not their superior.

It's straightforward because I can read, you moron. Surely there's someone amongst your people who does something other than eat.

Read what, exactly? If you have proof of your claims, now is the time to reveal it or else go away. Far away.

I'm not interested in your lectures or criticisms on intellect. Since you like to appeal to the majority, would you like to ask the forum which one of us they believe is smarter? As for being rude and arrogant, you can quite handily stop me by not acting like a complete moron.

Go ahead and ask them I dont care. The Sidious fanboys will have your back, but you will probably be suprised that your not as respected or popular on these forums as you think.

Jesus Christ, **** me in the eyeball. Can you not read?

manhandled three of the Jedi's greatest swordsmen in seconds

Three OF the Jedi's greatest swordsmen, not "the Jedi's three greatest swordsmen." Holy ****, do you not get it? The fact that Windu and Yoda are better is irrelevant. I never claimed that they were equal or better than Windu or Yoda; I said that they were among the best.

That's it. That's the decider. You can't ****ing read. Lightsnake or Faunus can take over from here. We're done.

Originally posted by Gideon
Jesus Christ, **** me in the eyeball. Can you not read?

Three OF the Jedi's greatest swordsmen, not "the Jedi's three greatest swordsmen." Holy ****, do you not get it? The fact that Windu and Yoda are better is irrelevant. I never claimed that they were equal or better than Windu or Yoda; I said that they were among the best.

That's it. That's the decider. You can't ****ing read. Lightsnake or Faunus can take over from here. We're done.

But the disparity is incredibly large so it would not be logical to include them with Mace or Yoda. They are not among the best, they are firmly lower tier.

And nice cop out.

No. They are firmly stated to be among the best. Mace is as well. And?

Originally posted by Gideon
Lightsnake or Faunus can take over from here. We're done.

I was about to tell you to just drop it, anyway.

Originally posted by Faunus
Right. We're that stupid.

I was about to tell you to just drop it, anyway.

What did I say wrong, Faunus? Huh? Did I use too many big words? I just don't see how I went astray here, how I can't make my point here. I'm messaging former KMCites and a few English nerds and asking them if I somehow worded it wrong. All the feedback I'm getting says that I worded it right and that Veneficus thinks GV's a moron.

I just realized how sad something is.

DE Luke's saber skills > all three of those PT Council members combined.

At least Luke lasted 3 panels, which has to be as long or longer than the "bladebeings" lasted. And this against a fresher and more powerful Palpatine empowered by his own world. Heh.

Don't ask me; I can't deal with dense people well.

I like GV, but this is downright retarded.

Do you know how mere mortals, when confronted with a great, intangible force, such as God or Wal Mart, can be broken? The extent of GV's stupidity has left me a broken guy. I've bled out, I have no more energy. I think I'm going to take some recovery days off...

Originally posted by Gideon
Do you know how mere mortals, when confronted with a great, intangible force, such as Faunus or osteoporosis, can be broken? The extent of GV's stupidity has left me a broken guy. I've bled out, I have no more energy. I think I'm going to take some recovery days off...

Well, congratulations on your homecoming... thing. What were you, exactly?

Originally posted by Faunus
Eh.

Well, congratulations on your homecoming... thing. What were you, exactly?

A senior candidate.

Originally posted by Faunus
I like GV, but this is downright retarded.

Advent's making him look pretty good. She's got a point. His point. He just wasn't great at expressing it.

Oh, runner-up for homecoming... king? Nice.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Advent's making him look pretty good. She's got a point. His point. He just wasn't great at expressing it.

If there was any merit in Gideons arguments, please point them out. Yes my debate with Gideon degenerated into a flame fest at the end, but he started it and his 'points' which were hardly relevent to his cause of Sidious vs Ragnos and in most cases incorrect were irritating me. Though Im more than willing to listen to an unbiased third party who isnt an arrogant ass if you see something I dont.

Also your right Advent deserves props for taking the argument further though the burden of proof is clearly on the Sidious fanboys to prove that the narration of their sources is the type that could make broad statements about the mythos even though none of the characters could possibly have knowledge of it.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
If there was any merit in Gideons arguments, please point them out.

No thank you. Gideon scares me. *laughs*

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No. They are firmly stated to be among the best. Mace is as well. And?

And what does 'among the best' mean? Its established that they are nowhere near Mace and Yoda. So where exactly are they on the food chain? Until that is established, Gideon has no point and even if it was established its not going to prove a damn thing in regards to Sidious vs Ragnos.

The thing about the being among the best simply means that they were among the best in terms of dueling. This has been argued before and it seems that some are of the opinion that while they are technically skilled they lack the pure force-potential to be among the great warriors. They're not fast or strong enough to be able to compete.

Think of it like a fistfight between Bruce lee and Luke Skywalker. Lee's a better martial artist, but Luke would kick the living sh*t out of him.

Gods Gideon, why didn't you just say that?

Originally posted by Faunus
Oh, runner-up for homecoming... king? Nice.

Yes sir. Not bad for a guy who doesn't play any sports or have a social life past 3:00 pm.

@ Exodus:

Masters Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto were lauded for being "celebrated swordsmen" held in high regard by both the omniscient narrator and Obi-Wan Kenobi for their prowess. Great Vengeance has demonstrated remarkable levels of stupidity by not being able to comprehend base linguistics: that they were three of the Jedi Order's finest swordsmen does not mean that they were equal to or superior than Masters Yoda and Windu nor did I ever state or imply as much. He's an idiot, which is something that is pretty much universally accepted here. The only ground he's gaining with his so-called 'point' is when Advent is wielding it for him, but a lot of how that will turn out depends on how she handles my counter regarding the profile of Obi-Wan Kenobi in the novelization.