The Strongest Jedi&sith Ever

Originally posted by Gideon
It's like I've told countless others: you're dealing with the main villain. He's more important than Revan or Ragnos or Bane or Darth Random and he gets fellated as much. He's supposed to be the most evil, the greatest, the strongest.

I could care less about Revan, Ragnos or Bane. Sidious can be the greatest and the strongest of the baddies, but when they turn him into a force God who can wipe his ass with entire fleets, then he looses whatever appeal he had. I like the manipulating bastard we see in movies, not the Uber swordsman, uber force god, uber ultimate evil muchkin we see in the EU.

That was kinda contradictory. He's supposed to be the best and you agree, but he's not supposed to be uber in Force strength?

Originally posted by Gideon
That was kinda contradictory. He's supposed to be the best and you agree, but he's not supposed to be uber in Force strength?

Not to the extent that the EU shows, he only got defeated in DE by some random Skywalker family Dues ex Machina light side deal, that's some shitty writing.

Aha. I get it.

Sidious is a deprecrit old fart that gets shafted by vader(quite literally he falls down a shaft) He I repeat he only stalemate drew with yoda which is plain as day for all to see cos he is I admit one cunning mofo who took there fight into that damn wonky senatorial hall where he then attained the high ground.....At end yoda was not deflecting but asborbing his force energy(which I admit not all cos of the blast) which would have drained pally dry if not for the mere bad luck of yoda standing on the edge when the loose energy ignited or whatever you wanna call it and blew him off.

Go watch battle scene again see the look of determination(the I aint losing look on yoda) then look at pally his cackling starts to turn into worry just like it did with windu when the force lightening wasnt working either.

Originally posted by JayJohn85
Sidious is a deprecrit old fart that gets shafted by vader(quite literally he falls down a shaft) He I repeat he only stalemate drew with yoda which is plain as day for all to see cos he is I admit one cunning mofo who took there fight into that damn wonky senatorial hall where he then attained the high ground.....At end yoda was not deflecting but asborbing his force energy(which I admit not all cos of the blast) which would have drained pally dry if not for the mere bad luck of yoda standing on the edge when the loose energy ignited or whatever you wanna call it and blew him off.

Go watch battle scene again see the look of determination(the I aint losing look on yoda) then look at pally his cackling starts to turn into worry just like it did with windu when the force lightening wasnt working either.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Yoda was the inferior in that match.

not so. From the minute Sidious tries to flee at the beginning, that's obvious. The duel itself onscreen makes it even more obvious. The novel says that Yoda "just didn't have it" But never once does it say he was inferior to sidious. It refers to the jedi order as a whole being inferior to the tactics of the sith.

Remember, that fight wasn't Yoda vs. Sidious, it was (pg. 393) "the expression of the fundamental conflicit of the universe itself., Light against dark, winner take all."

Yoda didn't "not have it" against sidious, he didn't have it against the entire sith order. "Yoda found himself alone, against the dark"

He didn't flee because he was the inferior, he fled because "The new sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of teh Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow (not his, THEIR) How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?"
He knew at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. "

That's why he fled. On page 398, your point is laid out for you, which, without interpretation, seems to agree with you. HOwever, consider this: Pg. 398-399 are NON-CANON. Why you ask? Because the movie directly contradicts the end of the fight as it is portrayed in these paragraphs.

"The shadow relased its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air, and alight upon one of th edelegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow--"

All good, so far, however, the next line shows why this description of this part of the fight is non-canon.

"Half a second too slow. The shadow unleashed its lightning WHILE THE CREATURE WAS STILL IN THE AIR, AND THE LITTLE GREEN FREAK TOOK ITS FULL POWER. "

Never happened. So this description of the fight cannot be considered superior to what happened on-screen, which was Yoda clearly getting the upper-hand.

If Yoda really got the 'upper hand', the lightning ball wouldn't have exploded in the exact middle between them- it so happens that that force contest was a stalemate. The entire battle was. Sidious one because he's smarter, has a better arsenal of offensive tools, and, let's face it, is luckier.

I'll agree with MC here - the force contest was a stalemate.

Saber-wise, I do believe Yoda to be Sidious' superior by a slim margin.

Stover's description of the fight made no sense.

He said that the Sith could not be destroyed by a lightsaber.

Yet Kenobi almost killed Vader with his saber, and Sidious was certainly trying to avoid Yoda's.

The guy was rambling.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Yoda was the inferior in that match. He had been using the Force to power his Ataru and was running dry. Palpatine meantime had reserves to continue. The look of determination was momentary, as was Yoda's advantage (see his 50 foot plummet and subsequent retreat). There's a reason he fled the scene, and no it wasn't because of the Clonetroopers.

I already mentioned it went all downhill due to falling of the edge but he did not force jump back up because he realised the fight wasnt going to be won by him there and then....In the end he trained luke and luke brought palpatine down nuff said

[i]Remember, that fight wasn't Yoda vs. Sidious, it was (pg. 393) "the expression of the fundamental conflicit of the universe itself., Light against dark, winner take all."

Yoda didn't "not have it" against sidious, he didn't have it against the entire sith order. "Yoda found himself alone, against the dark"[/B]

Do not understand your point as sidious had darth maul then dooku followed by anakin. The rule of two was in place as I do believe darth bane was sidious master who followed the rule of two(think he poisoned him so technically didnt defeat his master in a duel)

Anakin skywalker was the chosen one and balancer of the force because he killed alot of jedi leaving master and apprentice on both sides come return of the jedi thats the balance. I would agree with kreia's assessment of the force, it wields the user, not the other way about. Even if all jedi where killed by a successful sith lord more would rise and vice versa because the force would make it happen.

PS> It was due to high ranks of jedi in the old republic that helped sidious mask himself, the balance of power in the lights favour basically enabled a wolf to hide among sheep.....As for kreia thats one I cannot explain perhaps because she herself I consider very wise and knowledgable in the force if not very powerful.

Originally posted by JayJohn85
I already mentioned it went all downhill due to falling of the edge but he did not force jump back up because he realised the fight wasnt going to be won by him there and then....In the end he trained luke and luke brought palpatine down nuff said

As for Sidious trying to run at the beginning, would you stick around knowing that the Grandmaster of the Order was about to try and kill you? There's too much riding on the the outcome of the fight; the Sith's survival and Palpatine's life not the least of the worries. It's the RoT's nature to run and hide until you have a clear advantage. Sidious won not due to Yoda's incompetance but because he was more powerful.

I wouldn't say more powerful, but he definitely seemed to have more energy.

Originally posted by JayJohn85

Do not understand your point as sidious had darth maul then dooku followed by anakin. The rule of two was in place as I do believe darth bane was sidious master who followed the rule of two(think he poisoned him so technically didnt defeat his master in a duel)

Anakin skywalker was the chosen one and balancer of the force because he killed alot of jedi leaving master and apprentice on both sides come return of the jedi thats the balance. I would agree with kreia's assessment of the force, it wields the user, not the other way about. Even if all jedi where killed by a successful sith lord more would rise and vice versa because the force would make it happen.

PS> It was due to high ranks of jedi in the old republic that helped sidious mask himself, the balance of power in the lights favour basically enabled a wolf to hide among sheep.....As for kreia thats one I cannot explain perhaps because she herself I consider very wise and knowledgable in the force if not very powerful.

i have no idea what you are talking about... my post had nothing to do with maul, or the rule of two, anakin, kreia, bane, or politicians... Why did you even quote me?

Dosnt it say that yoda and sidiouses fight was a stalemate no matter where you read about it.Im not positive but i think it does.Also when they were using the force lightning it did explode and they both went flying yoda just fell way farther down.

Originally posted by JayJohn85

Do not understand your point as sidious had darth maul then dooku followed by anakin. The rule of two was in place as I do believe darth bane was sidious master who followed the rule of two(think he poisoned him so technically didnt defeat his master in a duel)

Originally posted by truejedi

Yoda didn't "not have it" against sidious, he didn't have it against the entire sith order. "Yoda found himself alone, against the dark"

I quoted you because of said statement. As in what do you mean by that, he was up against one sith lord...Who had one apprentice as he did with obi wan technically. As for the rule of two stuff that was further reinforcement on my point of how was he surrounded by darkness at start of prequel trilogy the dark was surrrounded by light. As in lots of jedi.

Come that battle they where on equal footing force wise I aint gonna debate stormtroopers in here.

no, you haven't read ROTS novelization have you?

I'll give you what my statement was based on from the novel. You can interpret it how you wish.

pg. 392. "Their clash transcended the personal; when new lightning blazed, it was not Palpatine burning Yoda with his hate, it was the Lord of all Sith scorching the Master of the all Jedi into a smoldering huddle of clothing and green flesh. A thousand years of hidden Sith exulted in their victory. 'Your time is over! The Sith rule the galaxy! Now and forever!'
and it was the whole of the jedi order that rocketed from its huddle, making its own body a weapon to blast the Sith to the ground."

pg 393. "When those blades met, it was more than Yoda against Palpatine, more than the millennia of Sith against teh legions of Jedi, this was teh expression of the fundamental conflict of the universe itself. Light against dark. Winner take all.

pg. 395 "There came a turning point in the clash of the light against teh dark. It did not come...." skip some talk about the duel.... Pg. 396 It came when teh avatar of light resolved into a lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi. It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark."

You disagreeing with me is based solely on how you intepret this passage. To me, its obvious, Sidious wasn't necessarily stronger than Yoda. The Dark was stronger than the Light at this time. The force was not with Yoda. The will of the force was that he would lose.

Fair enough I actually realise myself there no point in disagreeing with that cause at end of day yoda had to lose or it would have screw up the original trilogy....Any other related material canon or otherwise goes through lucas and it would just further collaborate this.

I like that will of the force line further highlights my point that the force manipulates the user and just about everyone, a force wielder doesnt wield the force the force wields them.

Originally posted by truejedi
To me, its obvious, Sidious wasn't necessarily stronger than Yoda. The Dark was stronger than the Light at this time. The force was not with Yoda. The will of the force was that he would lose.

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