glentract... what quality of sith though? they were all held under mind control at ONE TIME by a Lord Kaan who didn't even realize that he DIDN'T have the control of Bane's mind as he thought he did. That by itself points at the fact that those sith were at the least, much weaker than any PT sith we see.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
No Sith left? What about the entire Brotherhood of Darkness?
By the end? Hoth and Farfalla were commanders. The only battle I know Farfalla took active command in was the last battle of Ruusan. Hoth was seen leading from the camp during the last three battles. The first, he wasn't present in, the second he arrived and cleared off a small force of Sith there...3rd's the one he saw active combat in.
This is were the pivotal disagreement is. I have never agreed with the idea that Sidious was the most powerful Sith who had lived up to that point. He most certainly BECAME the most powerful, but as of ROTS he was far from the top. Bane has shown power far beyond was Mace or Sidious has demonstrated.
Mace lacked real lightsaber against lightsaber experience. Hoth and Farfalla have that benefit. The peacekeepers were NEVER described as the best Jedi in combat.
Since combat was never the Jedi's primary role, the 'prime' of the Jedi wouldn't automatically be the best combatants ever.
So take a solider who has trained in combat for years and then take another who has actual combat experience on multiple occasions. Throw the two into a fight with each other and the one with more experience in that field will usually win. The experience of having actual combat is a major advantage.
We can put them way up there because they were the best of a group of Jedi who actually lived in a time when fighting Sith was common.
Is there anything Hoth and Farfalla have behind them besides a brief assertion of their era's prowess, which isn't near enough when you consider everything Depa and Mace have, and their status as warleaders? Anything at all?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
prime of the Jedi in regards to combat. The 'peacekeepers' have that from GEORGE LUCAS'S MOUTH. What does that tell you?
You do realise that the "Prime of the Jedi" was meant purely in comparison to the OT, in which the only Jedi/Sith fighting involved a novice (Luke), an elderly hermit (Kenobi) and a half machine (Vader). Not everything a person says is meant literally. In this case it was a relative comment. Lucas probably never even thought about the novels or anything besides the movies at all.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tiny problem? When that order of 'warriors' includes Johun Othone, the argument is badly diminished.
Why? In ANY era of any fighting discipline there are always going to be anomalies. There are always going to be people who just aren't that good. Saying "Ruusan-era Jedi suck because they had ONE guy who wasn't very good" is a pretty silly thing to say. ONE person is not a representation of the entire order.
Originally posted by chilled monkeyWhy? In ANY era of any fighting discipline there are always going to be anomalies. There are always going to be people who just aren't that good. Saying "Ruusan-era Jedi suck because they had ONE guy who wasn't very good" is a pretty silly thing to say. ONE person is not a representation of the entire order.
well, they were having trouble winning a war against an army of sith that were of low quality themselves (see the reasoning i have above, ala Kaan's mind control of the entire order)
Originally posted by truejedi
well, they were having trouble winning a war against an army of sith that were of low quality themselves (see the reasoning i have above, ala Kaan's mind control of the entire order)
That doesn't lessen their level of combat experience. I mean hell, they were sucking up children into their ranks, that's how voilent this period was. These Jedi were clearly all battle hardened soldiers who had been fighting their entire lives.
PT era Jedi were peacekeepers, not soldiers, as Mace Windu himself mentions. They did not regularly engage in battle against massive armies (the Stark Hyperspace War, etc were all small scale) until the Clone Wars happened.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
You do realise that the "Prime of the Jedi" was meant purely in comparison to the OT, in which the only Jedi/Sith fighting involved a novice (Luke), an elderly hermit (Kenobi) and a half machine (Vader). Not everything a person says is meant literally. In this case it was a relative comment. Lucas probably never even thought about the novels or anything besides the movies at all.
Why? In ANY era of any fighting discipline there are always going to be anomalies. There are always going to be people who just aren't that good. Saying "Ruusan-era Jedi suck because they had ONE guy who wasn't very good" is a pretty silly thing to say. ONE person is not a representation of the entire order.
Johun sucks enough to drag down the entire average. That he's the prodigy of the two best Jedi Masters of the order doesn't help matters
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Johun was a veteran and Lord Hoth AND Farfalla's padawan.Johun sucks enough to drag down the entire average. That he's the prodigy of the two best Jedi Masters of the order doesn't help matters
I could just as easily point to Sora Bulq's Padawan (Mira I think her name was). Sora was supposed to be one of the best swordsman in the Order, heck he was the guy who helped Mace INVENT Vaapad. And yet his Padawan was cut down instantly by Assajj Ventress.
Ventress: "Is this meant as an attack?"
If Sora's Padawan was such a poor fighter, what does that say about PT-era Jedi?
And what's with this "Johun sucks" attitude anyway? He beat three highly trained fighters and held his own for a while against an elite fighter who used weapons he was completely unfamiliar with. Anyone who can do that shouldn't be sneered at.
Not to mention he was able to land a blow on Bane (albeit with Battle Meditation aid).
Heck, I like him because he's NOT some super-duellist. Makes a refreshing change.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
I could just as easily point to Sora Bulq's Padawan (Mira I think her name was). Sora was supposed to be one of the best swordsman in the Order, heck he was the guy who helped Mace INVENT Vaapad. And yet his Padawan was cut down instantly by Assajj Ventress.Ventress: "Is this meant as an attack?
If Sora's Padawan was such a poor fighter, what does that say about PT-era Jedi?
And what's with this "Johun sucks" attitude anyway? He beat three highly trained fighters and held his own for a while against an elite fighter who used weapons he was completely unfamiliar with. Anyone who can do that shouldn't be sneered at.
Not to mention he was able to land a blow on Bane (albeit with Battle Meditation aid).
Heck, I like him because he's NOT some super-duellist. Makes a refreshing change.
Originally posted by LightsnakeColeman Trebor was on the Jedi Council. 'Nuff said.
Johun was a veteran and Lord Hoth AND Farfalla's padawan.Johun sucks enough to drag down the entire average. That he's the prodigy of the two best Jedi Masters of the order doesn't help matters
And since when is Johun a "prodigy"? If you mean "protege," that's not really indicative of anything, and it's a really dumb argument if you're trying to insinuate that because Johun sucked, the Ruusan-era Order sucked. Like it or not, they were far more battle-hardened than the PT Jedi as a whole.
That said, I think it was noted in PoD that the Jedi were trying to scrounge up whatever was available, even getting the most mildly Force-sensitive children they could find. The PT Jedi sent all those who weren't selected as Padawans by the age of thirteen to some sort of public service corporation, and Mace seemed to speak with disdain for a weaker girl in Dark Rendezvous. So it's likely that the average Force-sensitive in the PT Order was more attuned to the Force than the average Force-sensitive in the Ruusan Order.
Originally posted by FaunusI'm just saying he drags down the average and battle hardened or not, the tops of the Ruusan era-Raskta aside- tend to fail to impress quite a bit. Hoth, for instance. Do you see Agen Kolar or Kit Fisto or Depa Billaba failing to kill Kaan before he yells "Well Gone" and claps his hands?
Coleman Trebor was on the Jedi Council. 'Nuff said.And since when is Johun a "prodigy"? If you mean "protege," that's not really indicative of anything, and it's a really dumb argument if you're trying to insinuate that because Johun sucked, the Ruusan-era Order sucked. Like it or not, they were far more battle-hardened than the PT Jedi as a whole.
I'm not using Johun as evidence for any massive suckage of the Ruusan order because they weren't. Just that with a few notable exceptions, we've seen the PT leaps and bounds above the Ruusan era.
That said, I think it was noted in PoD that the Jedi were trying to scrounge up whatever was available, even getting the most mildly Force-sensitive children they could find. The PT Jedi sent all those who weren't selected as Padawans by the age of thirteen to some sort of public service corporation, and Mace seemed to speak with disdain for a weaker girl in Dark Rendezvous. So it's likely that the average Force-sensitive in the PT Order was more attuned to the Force than the average Force-sensitive in the Ruusan Order.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm just saying he drags down the average and battle hardened or not, the tops of the Ruusan era-Raskta aside- tend to fail to impress quite a bit. Hoth, for instance. Do you see Agen Kolar or Kit Fisto or Depa Billaba failing to kill Kaan before he yells "Well Gone" and claps his hands?
I can. No disrespect to those three, I know they're all 'very' fast, but it doesn't take much time to clap your hands.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm not using Johun as evidence for any massive suckage of the Ruusan order because they weren't. Just that with a few notable exceptions, we've seen the PT leaps and bounds above the Ruusan era.
A valid point, although to be honest, the PT have had a lot more appearances and thus more chances to show their stuff.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That would pretty much account for Tomcat, rain and Bug and the like, but Johun was about twenty by then and Hoth's personal student.
Close, he was nineteen (sorry, I'm just kind of picky about details like that.)
Originally posted by Faunus
Coleman Trebor was on the Jedi Council. 'Nuff said.
One could say that Trebor's strength wasn't in his sword arm and that his talents lay in another direction than combat, so he still deserved his position.
Originally posted by Faunus
That said, I think it was noted in PoD that the Jedi were trying to scrounge up whatever was available, even getting the most mildly Force-sensitive children they could find. The PT Jedi sent all those who weren't selected as Padawans by the age of thirteen to some sort of public service corporation, and Mace seemed to speak with disdain for a weaker girl in Dark Rendezvous.
Scout, and to be fair Mace wasn't entirely without sympathy. He stated that there was no shame in working for the Agricultural Corps and that he felt it might be kinder to let her work at her own level (a case of 'being cruel to be kind'😉.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
I can. No disrespect to those three, I know they're all 'very' fast, but it doesn't take much time to clap your hands.
A valid point, although to be honest, the PT have had a lot more appearances and thus more chances to show their stuff.
Close, he was nineteen (sorry, I'm just kind of picky about details like that.)
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ask more what it says about Asajj Ventress. This IS the same woman who was able to fight Kit Fisto, y'know.
True, but my point is that just because Mira's Master was some lightsabre genius it doesn't neccessarily mean she will be. Her talents could be in a different area. Same with Johun.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He beat several Force sensitive thugs and was about to be killed by a non force sensitive fighter. This is NOT impressive. His movements are described as 'clumsy' by Zannah and in that fight, he's an utter hindrance. He only lasts because of Raskta against Bane. His attacks are noted as 'painfully predictable' as well.
Clumsy and painfully predictable by Zannah's standards maybe (and while she may not be 'one of the greatest duellists ever,' I think you'll agree that her weapons skills are nothing to laugh at). I'd say he's still better than a lot of fighters. It's all a matter of perspective.
They weren't thugs; they were stated to be highly skilled opponents. And Kel was an elite warrior (plus as I said he used unfamiliar weapons). So what if he wasn't Force-sensitive? The Force isn't the be all and end all, you know. Plenty of characters are non-Force-sensitive and still very capable. Thrawn for instance (he was a strategist rather than a fighter, but you get the point)
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He's an idiot, a buffoon, an awful fighter and thanks to him, the Sith persisted. Without Johun, Zannah would've died early on and Sarro could have helped Raskta and Farfalla, assuring a quick end for Bane.
You could also blame Farfalla for not saying "stay and guard the ship" or "focus on protecting Worror." Or you could say that muscleheaded lummox Sarro was to blame for not saying "get back" or for taking his eyes off Zannah and giving her chance to nail him with the mind-whammy.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mace can punch someone twice before they can even blink. Kaan had to raise his hands, shout " Lord Hoth, Well Gone" And then clap to unleash the Thought Bomb...Agen, Kit and Depa have all displayed rather exceptional speed...saying nothing of people like Yoda or Palpatine
Actually Mace hit Vastor SIX times before he could even focus his eyes. And Vastor was described as having 'blinding speed.' So on reflection I'll have to revise this one.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is so, but in the situations they were in, save for Raskta, the others rather underperformed
You have a point there I must admit.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Heh, fair enough. My point, though, was that he wasn't some kid they just picked up to fight the war but Hoth's personal student.
True enough.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
True, but my point is that just because Mira's Master was some lightsabre genius it doesn't neccessarily mean she will be. Her talents could be in a different area. Same with Johun.
Yeah, but Mira's opponent is someone who's very, very skilled and dangerous. We can't know much about Mira's abilities, but we know Asajj is very dangerous
Clumsy and painfully predictable by Zannah's standards maybe (and while she may not be 'one of the greatest duellists ever,' I think you'll agree that her weapons skills are nothing to laugh at). I'd say he's still better than a lot of fighters. It's all a matter of perspective.
They weren't thugs; they were stated to be highly skilled opponents. And Kel was an elite warrior (plus as I said he used unfamiliar weapons). So what if he wasn't Force-sensitive? The Force isn't the be all and end all, you know. Plenty of characters are non-Force-sensitive and still very capable. Thrawn for instance (he was a strategist rather than a fighter, but you get the point)
You could also blame Farfalla for not saying "stay and guard the ship" or "focus on protecting Worror." Or you could say that muscleheaded lummox Sarro was to blame for not saying "get back" or for taking his eyes off Zannah and giving her chance to nail him with the mind-whammy.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, but Mira's opponent is someone who's very, very skilled and dangerous. We can't know much about Mira's abilities, but we know Asajj is very dangerous
True, but the ease with which Ventress blocks her attack and then cuts her down (even saying "is this meant as an attack?"😉 is a pretty good indicator that Mira's skills are not particularly high. Sora even says, "you are no match for her."
Originally posted by Lightsnake
When were they described as such? And Kel is a 'highly skilled warrior,' and? Plenty of Jedi have dominated highly skilled warriors.
Page 141: "Elite warriors like Kel"
Page 163: "It only took the first pass for him to realise each one was a highly skilled opponent."
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Force sensitives should be faster, stronger, more skilled and Kel being able to DEFEAT Johun says a lot against Johun.
Kel did not defeat him. Who was still alive at the end of that fight? Johun won; he just won by means other than his fighting skills.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
If it was Sarro there, do you think any of the killers would've lasted more than a moment? Johun even, again, admits he hasn't kept his abilities from dwindling and puts almost no focus on combat. Any competent fighter should be able to take Kel.
Hardly a fair comparison. You're taking a guy from the top of the chart in terms of fighting skill and comparing him to someone at the bottom. Of course they wouldn't have lasted more than a moment; Sarro was one of the best fighters of his Era, hardly an 'average' Jedi.
Besides, you yourself admitted that Johun had gotten rusty by that time. If he had done more than "basic efforts" to keep his skills honed he could well have done better.
Furthermore it clearly states "Yet he was still a Jedi and a formiddable foe for anyone to face."
Originally posted by chilled monkey
True, but the ease with which Ventress blocks her attack and then cuts her down (even saying "is this meant as an attack?"😉 is a pretty good indicator that Mira's skills are not particularly high. Sora even says, "you are no match for her."
Page 141: "Elite warriors like Kel"Page 163: "It only took the first pass for him to realise each one was a highly skilled opponent."
Kel did not defeat him. Who was still alive at the end of that fight? Johun won; he just won by means other than his fighting skills.
Hardly a fair comparison. You're taking a guy from the top of the chart in terms of fighting skill and comparing him to someone at the bottom. Of course they wouldn't have lasted more than a moment; Sarro was one of the best fighters of his Era, hardly an 'average' Jedi.
Besides, you yourself admitted that Johun had gotten rusty by that time. If he had done more than "basic efforts" to keep his skills honed he could well have done better.
Furthermore it clearly states "Yet he was still a Jedi and a formiddable foe for anyone to face."
Johun did suck. He is the only one who actually drew blood on Bane though. (course, this infuriated bane and ended the fight... He should have just let the others keep chopping away, and eventually Sarro would have killed Zannah, and then maybe together one of them could have stabbed Bane in the head)
Originally posted by Lightsnake
As part of their plan was to duel and I sincerely doubt Sora, being a traitor already, was unaware of Ventress's skill and that Ventress has been shown to easily handle two Jedi Masters at a time, no, a single knight like Mira is not going to be a match
Exactly, and that was my point. Just because Sora was a lightsabre ace, it doesn't automatically mean his Padawan will be too.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's splitting hairs a bit. If they kept fighting, Kel'd kill him. In fighting skills, Kel>Johun. I'm not really sure why you're arguing against Johun in Ro2 being just a terrible fighter
Oh, I don't deny that out of all the Jedi/Sith fighters we've seen he's near the bottom. I just think it's an exaggeration to say stuff like he had no skill whatsoever. Anyone who can beat three skilled opponents, despite being rusty, IMO deserves at least some credit.
Plus, as I say, I like the fact that for a change we had a hero who wasn't some amazingly powerful Force-user, or "one of the greatest duellists the Order had ever had." I like that he was an 'everyman' and a basically good guy who just did the best he could despite his limitations.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
One of the best fighters in the era? He was good, sure, but THAT good?
"The warrior assailing her had elevated the act of combat to its purest and highest form."
"He executed his moves with a perfect elegance born of obsession."
The point is that he was clearly a lot better at fighting than the average Jedi of the time.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I sincerely doubt he was better as a padawan.
Ah but as a Padawan he fought at Ruusan. As Hoth's student he was most likely there from the start.
"Its (Niman's) general versatility had served him well during the unpredictable grand melees of the Ruusan battlefields. But over the past decade he had made only the most basic efforts to maintain his skill with the blade."
It's quite feasible that he was at least a bit better during the war, before his skills got rusty over the following ten years. Heck, why else would it even mention the fact that he had only made basic efforts?