Vapaad Gauntlet · Star Wars Versus Forum

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Exactly, and that was my point. Just because Sora was a lightsabre ace, it doesn't automatically mean his Padawan will be too.

Yes, but when the opponent is Asajj Ventress...

Oh, I don't deny that out of all the Jedi/Sith fighters we've seen he's near the bottom. I just think it's an exaggeration to say stuff like he had no skill whatsoever. Anyone who can beat three skilled opponents, despite being rusty, IMO deserves at least some credit.

Again, why should I expect ANYTHING less of a Jedi? Cay Qel Droma held his own against numerous Onderon fighters, for instance. A Jedi of competent fighting skills would have killed Kel and the others without issue

Plus, as I say, I like the fact that for a change we had a hero who wasn't some amazingly powerful Force-user, or "one of the greatest duellists the Order had ever had." I like that he was an 'everyman' and a basically good guy who just did the best he could despite his limitations.

I dislike him because he's a dolt and an impulsive fool who is singlehandedly responsible for ruining the most important task his era had known.

"The warrior assailing her had elevated the act of combat to its purest and highest form."
"He executed his moves with a perfect elegance born of obsession."
The point is that he was clearly a lot better at fighting than the average Jedi of the time.

Ok, point.

Ah but as a Padawan he fought at Ruusan. As Hoth's student he was most likely there from the start.

A lot of people fought on Ruusan. Tomcat fought on Ruusan. Fighting on Ruusan doesn't equate to even mediocre ability, it equates to fighting on the level of a Republic soldier...and this assuming he saw much active combat

"Its (Niman's) general versatility had served him well during the unpredictable grand melees of the Ruusan battlefields. But over the past decade he had made only the most basic efforts to maintain his skill with the blade."
It's quite feasible that he was at least a bit better during the war, before his skills got rusty over the following ten years. Heck, why else would it even mention the fact that he had only made basic efforts?

As a Niman user from the start, it's a major mark against him, there.

chilled monkey Senior Member

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, but when the opponent is Asajj Ventress...

Various Jedi who were recognised as excellent fighters managed to beat or hold their own against Ventress. Mira being killed so effortlessly, even by Ventress, seems a pretty good indicator that her lightsabre skills, while adequate for most scenarios, are not anywhere near the top.

It's not so much that Ventress beat her, it's how easily she did it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Again, why should I expect ANYTHING less of a Jedi? Cay Qel Droma held his own against numerous Onderon fighters, for instance. A Jedi of competent fighting skills would have killed Kel and the others without issue

Well to be fair he beat the first three without too much trouble, it was only Kel who gave him difficulty. And Kel used weapons that Johun was unfamiliar with, which is a problem for anyone. Remember how Bane was completely flummoxed when Kas'im used two sabres against him? And that's a lot closer to the fighting style he was familiar with.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I dislike him because he's a dolt and an impulsive fool who is singlehandedly responsible for ruining the most important task his era had known.

You're entitled to your opinion. Personally I thought he did the best he could. Sure he made some screw-ups, but hey, so does everyone.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, point.

No problem.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A lot of people fought on Ruusan. Tomcat fought on Ruusan. Fighting on Ruusan doesn't equate to even mediocre ability, it equates to fighting on the level of a Republic soldier...and this assuming he saw much active combat

Tomcat didn't show up until towards the tail end of the war. Johun was their from the start. And it states in the novel that he saw at least some active fighting.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As a Niman user from the start, it's a major mark against him, there.

Not really. Niman is a good style because it's so versatile and doesn't limit its users to any one style. Its like mixed martial arts; a Niman user can do it all; all of their bases are covered.

People tend to point to all the Jedi who died at the arena in Ep II, but remember they were facing an ungodly number of foes. In most scenarios, Niman is quite sufficient.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Various Jedi who were recognised as excellent fighters managed to beat or hold their own against Ventress. Mira being killed so effortlessly, even by Ventress, seems a pretty good indicator that her lightsabre skills, while adequate for most scenarios, are not anywhere near the top.
It's not so much that Ventress beat her, it's how easily she did it.

In the same comic, Ventress is taking on, with utter ease, two masters and a knight simultaneously. She kills two masters with similar ease in Dark Rendezvous

Well to be fair he beat the first three without too much trouble, it was only Kel who gave him difficulty. And Kel used weapons that Johun was unfamiliar with, which is a problem for anyone.
Remember how Bane was completely flummoxed when Kas'im used two sabres against him? And that's a lot closer to the fighting style he was familiar with.

Kas'im was a top tier Duelist and Sith Lord. a Jedi should NOT have trouble with a skilled assassin, weapon or no weapon. Johun was being matched in speed and combat ability there...Jedi have faced unfamiliar weapons before and done fine.

You're entitled to your opinion. Personally I thought he did the best he could. Sure he made some screw-ups, but hey, so does everyone.

The 'best he could' would have been to realize he was utterly screwing Sarro up when he prevented Sarro from killing Zannah. Johun made one too many mistakes

Tomcat didn't show up until towards the tail end of the war. Johun was their from the start. And it states in the novel that he saw at least some active fighting.

Indeed, but so did a lot of normal soldiers

Not really. Niman is a good style because it's so versatile and doesn't limit its users to any one style. Its like mixed martial arts; a Niman user can do it all; all of their bases are covered.

Niman is considered an inferior style because it takes in a 'jack of all trades, master of none' view. You learn only the extreme basics of the others but it's a form for those more avoiding blade combat.

People tend to point to all the Jedi who died at the arena in Ep II, but remember they were facing an ungodly number of foes. In most scenarios, Niman is quite sufficient.

It's not much a coincidence that none of the great fighters have been Nima users...It's not sufficient against large numbers or many difficult scenarios.

chilled monkey Senior Member

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In the same comic, Ventress is taking on, with utter ease, two masters and a knight simultaneously. She kills two masters with similar ease in Dark Rendezvous

In Dark Rendezvous, Jai Maruk manages to put up a fight against Ventress twice, the second time when he had a wounded leg, impaired mobility, had lost a cupload of blood and was dangerously close to giving in to rage. Maks Leem was seriously injured by assassin droids. She never even had chance to fight Ventress.

Plus, several Jedi who were elite fighters (Mace, Anakin, Kenobi etc) were able to hold their own against or beat Ventress so she is not infallible.

I realise we all like to stick up for characters we like, but I really don't understand why you seem so insistant that Mira was an ace duellist when her own master said she was no match for Ventress. There's no disgrace in not being a top duellist, it just means her strengths lay elsewhere.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kas'im was a top tier Duelist and Sith Lord. a Jedi should NOT have trouble with a skilled assassin, weapon or no weapon. Johun was being matched in speed and combat ability there...Jedi have faced unfamiliar weapons before and done fine.

Not all Jedi are identical. Some just aren't as skilled as others.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The 'best he could' would have been to realize he was utterly screwing Sarro up when he prevented Sarro from killing Zannah. Johun made one too many mistakes

We can probably put that down to overenthusiasm. Remember how determined he was to ensure the Sith were gone so that his master's sacrfice wouldn't be in vain? It overwhelmed his better judgement.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Indeed, but so did a lot of normal soldiers

True.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Niman is considered an inferior style because it takes in a 'jack of all trades, master of none' view. You learn only the extreme basics of the others but it's a form for those more avoiding blade combat.
It's not much a coincidence that none of the great fighters have been Nima users...It's not sufficient against large numbers or many difficult scenarios.

I realise 'quality over quantity,' but I don't think Niman is as bad as some people seem to think. True, it's "the diplomat's form," but if it were COMPLETELY useless, why even bother learning it? I'd say it's adequate for most attackers (provided there aren't too many).

Some time ago there was a thread where people were claiming tht C3PO in Ep II (when his head was swapped) could beat Niman users on his own and that is going too far.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by chilled monkey
In Dark Rendezvous, Jai Maruk manages to put up a fight against Ventress twice, the second time when he had a wounded leg, impaired mobility, had lost a cupload of blood and was dangerously close to giving in to rage. Maks Leem was seriously injured by assassin droids. She never even had chance to fight Ventress.
Plus, several Jedi who were elite fighters (Mace, Anakin, Kenobi etc) were able to hold their own against or beat Ventress so she is not infallible.

When did I say she is? There's a firm difference between a random knight like Mira and the elite fighters of the Order

I realise we all like to stick up for characters we like, but I really don't understand why you seem so insistant that Mira was an ace duellist when her own master said she was no match for Ventress. There's no disgrace in not being a top duellist, it just means her strengths lay elsewhere.

I don't care much about Mira. The point is, dismissing her saber abilities because she got beat by Ventress is absurd.
And I hate Ventress as a character

Not all Jedi are identical. Some just aren't as skilled as others.

And Johun is less skilled than most

We can probably put that down to overenthusiasm. Remember how determined he was to ensure the Sith were gone so that his master's sacrfice wouldn't be in vain? It overwhelmed his better judgement.

And this undercuts my point about him being an impulsive dolt how?

I realise 'quality over quantity,' but I don't think Niman is as bad as some people seem to think. True, it's "the diplomat's form," but if it were COMPLETELY useless, why even bother learning it? I'd say it's adequate for most attackers (provided there aren't too many).

Because it's quicker, easier and prevents you from devoting too much time to combat?

Some time ago there was a thread where people were claiming tht C3PO in Ep II (when his head was swapped) could beat Niman users on his own and that is going too far.

Yes it is.

chilled monkey Senior Member

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't care much about Mira. The point is, dismissing her saber abilities because she got beat by Ventress is absurd.
And I hate Ventress as a character

The point is not that she got beat. It's the speed and ease with which she was killed.

1. Mira attacks. Ventress blocks it while saying "is this meant as an attack?"

2. Sora tells Mira to get away because "you are no match for her."

3. Ventress cuts down Mira while saying "no she wasn't."

Compare that to Jai Maruk who twice was able to put up a fight before being defeated.

And no one is "dismissing her saber abilities." I'm sure she'd have done fine against most opponents. I was just saying that there's nothing to suggest that she was an exceptionally skilled swordsman.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
[BAnd Johun is less skilled than most[/B]

True.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
[BBecause it's quicker, easier and prevents you from devoting too much time to combat?[/B]

But why teach it at all if it has no practical value? If that were the case they could just leave it out completely and focus entirely on diplomatic skills. Why spend time on it unless it has at least some effectiveness?

And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sidious a Niman user?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
[BYes it is. [/B]

Cool.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The point is not that she got beat. It's the speed and ease with which she was killed.
1. Mira attacks. Ventress blocks it while saying "is this meant as an attack?"
2. Sora tells Mira to get away because "you are no match for her."
3. Ventress cuts down Mira while saying "no she wasn't."
Compare that to Jai Maruk who twice was able to put up a fight before being defeated.

Jai Maruk was a Jedi master. Mastery (Mastership?) isn't handed out like candy in the PT.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
But why teach it at all if it has no practical value? If that were the case they could just leave it out completely and focus entirely on diplomatic skills. Why spend time on it unless it has at least some effectiveness?

A jedi must be able to use the lightsaber. It was a symbol of power and status. Niman wasn't worthless- It simply wasn't effective as a combat style. It could be used, but didn't garner the same results as a more specialized form would.

Originally posted by chilled monkey

And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sidious a Niman user?

You're wrong. Sidious mastered all 7 forms. I don't think he used any specific form, rather he used all of them.

chilled monkey Senior Member

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Jai Maruk was a Jedi master. Mastery (Mastership?) isn't handed out like candy in the PT.
[/B]

Okay, here is a quote from Wookiepedia:

"Mira was a former Padawan to Sora Bulq, who unlike her master, was not a particularly skilled lightsaber combatant."

You want to insist that she was one of the greatest fighters in the Order, provide some proof.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Okay, here is a quote from Wookiepedia:
"Mira was a former Padawan to Sora Bulq, who unlike her master, was not a particularly skilled lightsaber combatant."
You want to insist that she was one of the greatest fighters in the Order, provide some proof.

You clearly missed the point.

Maruk was a master. That is a good showing of (some) level of mastery. Mira was not a master. That is also an indicator of power. Ventress is able to ruin multiple masters at once. To be able to wreck Mira in a one on one situation does not diminish Mira's capabilities. Ventress is good.

chilled monkey Senior Member

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You clearly missed the point.
Maruk was a master. That is a good showing of (some) level of mastery. Mira was not a master. That is also an indicator of power. Ventress is able to ruin multiple masters at once. To be able to wreck Mira in a one on one situation does not diminish Mira's capabilities. Ventress is good.

Evidently so have you. Here is the quote from Wookiepedia again:

"Mira was a former Padawan to Sora Bulq, who unlike her master, was not a particularly skilled lightsaber combatant."

Are you claiming that this quote is inaccurate? Do you believe that Mira was one of the best lightsabre combatants in the Order?

Heck, I rather like her, but I have to be honest. Nothing indicates that she was exceptionally skilled fighter. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to accept.

Yes, Ventress is good. She is an exceptionally good combatant. Mira was not of comparable skill. Are you saying otherwise?

Elite Hunter Senior Member

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Evidently so have you. Here is the quote from Wookiepedia again:
"Mira was a former Padawan to Sora Bulq, who unlike her master, was not a particularly skilled lightsaber combatant."
Are you claiming that this quote is inaccurate?

While I believe that whoever the author is probably has a good reason for writing,the fact remains that this particular line is not directly sourced, means (to me anyway) that one must get what is really said in Jedi: Mace Windu.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Are you claiming that this quote is inaccurate? Do you believe that Mira was one of the best lightsabre combatants in the Order?

As EH pointed out, that source is uncited. ([citation needed])

Yes, Ventress is good. She is an exceptionally good combatant. Mira was not of comparable skill. Are you saying otherwise?

Can you really not see the disconnect? You are using her defeat to a highly skilled combatant as the basis for your disdain of her abilities. If she lost to NJO Luke you would not call her weak. If she lost to Sidious you would not call her weak. That she fought someone above her skill level does not make her weak.

"But wait!" you say. She lost to Ventress, not NJO Luke or Sidious. While Ventress did not outclass Mira to the same degree that these two combatants would, she was still far above her capabilities. Ventress could take multiple Jedi Masters. Losing to her is not a disgrace. That's all I want you to admit. Losing to her wasn't an indication of lack of skill.

chilled monkey Senior Member

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Can you really not see the disconnect? You are using her defeat to a highly skilled combatant as the basis for your disdain of her abilities. If she lost to NJO Luke you would not call her weak. If she lost to Sidious you would not call her weak. That she fought someone above her skill level does not make her weak.

Who the heck said ANYTHING about her being weak? I've said that I rather like Mira and I'm sure she would do fine against 'regular' threats. All I've ever said is that she isn't an EXCEPTIONALLY good duellist, is not one of the best swordsmen ever etc.

Not being one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order does not make one weak. Suppose I said (for example) "Spiderman isn't as strong as the Hulk." Would you then accuse me of calling Spiderman weak, just because I said he wasn't as strong as the Hulk?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
[B]"But wait!" you say. She lost to Ventress, not NJO Luke or Sidious. While Ventress did not outclass Mira to the same degree that these two combatants would, she was still far above her capabilities. Ventress could take multiple Jedi Masters. Losing to her is not a disgrace. That's all I want you to admit. Losing to her wasn't an indication of lack of skill.

Mira was not an elite duellist. That's all I want YOU to admit.

chilled monkey Senior Member

I apologise for being snotty in my last post. I've been in rather a bad mood today. And yes, to clarify, I know that losing to Ventress is no shame, sorry if I wasn't clear.