Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
well shikamaru was held in a similar illusion... but he dispelled it by breaking his own finger. the point is that genjutsu is broken by massive sudden changes to your body wither it be massive pain oflaring up chakra. raditz has the power to do it.
He broke his finger but not by moving. He had to manipulate his own shadow. Raditz has no techniques for breaking out of a genjutsu.
Raditz take this easily. Now, the only issue it seems him against Itachi, well, then I said Itachi is dead against him. First, if raditz has knowledge about him, he could just blast he hell of him before he could understand what's going on. If not, none of his weapons can really bring down Raditz, and I will tell you why:
1) Tsukuyomi: it's a genjutsu, and as far as we know, it's still to kill anyone strong in narutoverse, in fact, strong or weak, no one had ever been killed by this technique, only weakened. Now, I would like to point out 2 of his characteristics: it's a short range attack (0-5 meters) and it's a genjutsu. Now, this says it all. In the moment raditz gets in "close range" with Itachi, he is dead, and this is thinking that raditz would even bother to get in close range with anyone and wouldn't just blast him away. Also, and thinking KI as something similiar as chakra, there's just no way Itachi could manipulate someone with so much energy, and even if he tried, raditz could easily broke it just by the sheer force of it. It's like saying that the nine tail fox can be harmed by this attack... Ah, by the way,
[SPOILER, BE AWARE]
killer bee had already broke a Tsukuyomi from Sasuke anyway, so it's not that the technique is invencible even in narutoverse
[END OF SPOILER]
2) Amaterasu: the only technique I think it can really bring harm to raditz, anyway, it would be pointless. Why? Because it's another short range attack. The black flames will indeed apear instantly in the foe WHEN he is at 0-5 meters from Itachi, more then that, and the flame will have to travel the distance until it's target, which obviously means that the technique will never connect raditz. Now, as I said before, raditz will only enter in a close range distance against itachi in order to kill him with a physical attack, and if he does that, amaterasu just doesn't really matter because Itachi would be dead before he noticed what happened.
3) Susanoo: while a good defensive technique, it drains life force form Itachi, so raditz just have to stay away while the technique drains itachi. Also, I hardly believe susano is invencible, so an extremely strong attack, or several ones in a row could probably break it.
Anyway, as I said, the sheer power of raditz is too much for any character in narutoverse.
Originally posted by dadudemonIt's not any different than using any chakra techniique. They aren't going to be able to when stuck in tsukiyomi. And Radditz can't control his ki like the Z fighters. They are able to suppress it and all that. Radditz didn't even know he could focus all his energy into one spot to get stronger blasts, and was surprised when Piccolo and Gokou did it. So I doubt he'd have the contol to do it just because he can fire off blasts.
So, how is concentrating a shit ton of ki energy in one's hands not controlling their energy?Remember when Videl was learning how to control it?
It took lots of effort.
It was days before Videl, a martial arts prodigy, could gather enough energy to make it visible.
Just because other characters do it with ease, doesn't mean it is weak auce.
Indeed. Who knows.
I'm sticking with an easy "wipe the floor clean" victory, though.
If Radditz was sent to Naruto Earth to clear it of pesky vermin, he wouldn't waste time in doing so.
Well yea he wipes the floor. He doesn't even need to be within sight to destroy everything. No reason for genjutsu to really be a factor when he's not even close.
Originally posted by Ms.MarvelDepends on the genjutsu. Everything that was happening to Shikamaru, he knew was genjutsu, and was happening in real time, and he could still manipulate his chakra. It was sound based, and it wasn't really effecting him mentally just one that makes you see what isn't happening. Tsukiyomi is completely different.
well shikamaru was held in a similar illusion... but he dispelled it by breaking his own finger. the point is that genjutsu is broken by massive sudden changes to your body wither it be massive pain oflaring up chakra. raditz has the power to do it.
Originally posted by Kento
Depends on the genjutsu. Everything that was happening to Shikamaru, he knew was genjutsu, and was happening in real time, and he could still manipulate his chakra. It was sound based, and it wasn't really effecting him mentally just one that makes you see what isn't happening. Tsukiyomi is completely different.
That doesn't even matter.
The only reason Shikamaru was able to break out, was because he had a technique like the Shadow Strangle. Requires no movement, and can be altered using just his consciousness. Raditz has no attack like that.
Originally posted by Kento
It's not any different than using any chakra techniique.
Exactly. This is my point.
Originally posted by Kento
They aren't going to be able to when stuck in tsukiyomi. And Radditz can't control his ki like the Z fighters. They are able to suppress it and all that. Radditz didn't even know he could focus all his energy into one spot to get stronger blasts, and was surprised when Piccolo and Gokou did it. So I doubt he'd have the contol to do it just because he can fire off blasts.
What that was was concentrating the ki energy into a more compressed and more powerful blast. That's what Radditz was suprised on. Vegeta could do the same thing...didn't Radditz make reference to that?
Originally posted by Kento
Well yea he wipes the floor. He doesn't even need to be within sight to destroy everything. No reason for genjutsu to really be a factor when he's not even close.
Cool. This is what I think.
If he toys with them...he could get caught up in Genjutsu. I dunno.
He could be too powerful for it to be effective, though. I don't want to commit the infinite fallacy by assuming that Genjutsu will even work on someone as powerful (relative to the Naruto characters) as Radditz.
Edit - Kento. What Itachi did to Kakashi is most likely what he'd do to Radditz. Itachi doesn't know Radditz or what would make him broken like Kakashi. Kakashi is a human. Radditz is a battle hardened Saiyan warrior who has killed millions to billions of sentient life forms. I don't see how torturing him with physical torment will do anything but make him go white eyed ape-sh*t.
Originally posted by dadudemonI don't think he made a reference, and if Radditz could do it, and has seen it before why would he be so surprised at what they were doing?
Exactly. This is my point.What that was was concentrating the ki energy into a more compressed and more powerful blast. That's what Radditz was suprised on. Vegeta could do the same thing...didn't Radditz make reference to that?
Cool. This is what I think.
If he toys with them...he could get caught up in Genjutsu. I dunno.
He could be too powerful for it to be effective, though. I don't want to commit the infinite fallacy by assuming that Genjutsu will even work on someone as powerful (relative to the Naruto characters) as Radditz.
Edit - Kento. What Itachi did to Kakashi is most likely what he'd do to Radditz. Itachi doesn't know Radditz or what would make him broken like Kakashi. Kakashi is a human. Radditz is a battle hardened Saiyan warrior who has killed millions to billions of sentient life forms. I don't see how torturing him with physical torment will do anything but make him go white eyed ape-sh*t.
I can understand you not believing Susanoo will be able to stop an attack by Radditz as yes its a infinite fallacy, but Tsukiyomi is no different than saying Prof X or even some of the weaker mutant psychics mindraping somebody like Radditz or somebody stronger physically. It's more than a genjutsu, it literally screws with your mind. I could see somebody arguing it not working on say Gokou or somebody else with a high level of pure willpower, but Radditz doesn't have the will or anything to keep it from happening to him. Saying it works on Radditz isn't a infinite fallacy, saying it'll work on people who have proven to either have strong wills or have withstood some form of mindraping is but nobody is saying that.
There are probably more torture things Itachi could do besides what he did to Kakashi. It's whatever Itachi comes up with. Even then I think that what he did to Kakashi would still break Radditz's mind. Being so powerless, and being tortured on end isn't the same as the joy the get out of killing weaker beings, and destroying stuff. It's a genjutsu that breaks the persons will and mind. Which against Radditz should be simple.
Originally posted by QuincyRadditz doesn't need to move to shoot a blast from his palm that can destroy anything around for miles, he won't be able to hurt himself to break out but if he's hit with something that looks like it has him bound where he can't move or something yet he's still all real time, and he can charge a blast I seriously doubt he won't try to destroy anything around to break free of the attack since he won't know its all an illusion.
That doesn't even matter.The only reason Shikamaru was able to break out, was because he had a technique like the Shadow Strangle. Requires no movement, and can be altered using just his consciousness. Raditz has no attack like that.
Originally posted by Kento
I don't think he made a reference, and if Radditz could do it, and has seen it before why would he be so surprised at what they were doing?
So he didn't see Vegeta ever do it?
Originally posted by Kento
I can understand you not believing Susanoo will be able to stop an attack by Radditz as yes its a infinite fallacy, but Tsukiyomi is no different than saying Prof X or even some of the weaker mutant psychics mindraping somebody like Radditz or somebody stronger physically.
Not just physically, but spiritually, as well.
Originally posted by Kento
It's more than a genjutsu, it literally screws with your mind. I could see somebody arguing it not working on say Gokou or somebody else with a high level of pure willpower, but Radditz doesn't have the will or anything to keep it from happening to him. Saying it works on Radditz isn't a infinite fallacy, saying it'll work on people who have proven to either have strong wills or have withstood some form of mindraping is but nobody is saying that.
I was thinking that Radditz, having a different set of genetics, social norms, etc. would not be affected the same way Kakashi was.
And, in the anime, Oro is tortured the same way Kakashi was. I think that Sasuke's torture was only specific to him because Itachi shared the same memory, so he knew exactly which memory to torture him with...whereas, with Kakashi and Oro, he didn't know what would be best, so he "physically" tortured them.
Originally posted by Kento
There are probably more torture things Itachi could do besides what he did to Kakashi. It's whatever Itachi comes up with. Even then I think that what he did to Kakashi would still break Radditz's mind. Being so powerless, and being tortured on end isn't the same as the joy the get out of killing weaker beings, and destroying stuff. It's a genjutsu that breaks the persons will and mind. Which against Radditz should be simple.
I don't see anything to indicate that torturing Raddtiz in the same way Kakashi and Oro were, would do anything but enrage Radditz.
Originally posted by Kento
Radditz doesn't need to move to shoot a blast from his palm that can destroy anything around for miles, he won't be able to hurt himself to break out but if he's hit with something that looks like it has him bound where he can't move or something yet he's still all real time, and he can charge a blast I seriously doubt he won't try to destroy anything around to break free of the attack since he won't know its all an illusion.
Hmm.
Sasuke moved, in the real world, while in a powerful genjutsu from Oro. Was that will power, alone? Or was it simply combat prowess?
Originally posted by dadudemonWell there missions were never to destroy planets so probably not. Galic Gun was a desperation move, and if they have ever been in a place when Vegeta is desperate Nappa, and Radditz would be dead.
So he didn't see Vegeta ever do it?Not just physically, but spiritually, as well.
I was thinking that Radditz, having a different set of genetics, social norms, etc. would not be affected the same way Kakashi was.
And, in the anime, Oro is tortured the same way Kakashi was. I think that Sasuke's torture was only specific to him because Itachi shared the same memory, so he knew exactly which memory to torture him with...whereas, with Kakashi and Oro, he didn't know what would be best, so he "physically" tortured them.
I don't see anything to indicate that torturing Raddtiz in the same way Kakashi and Oro were, would do anything but enrage Radditz.
Hmm.
Sasuke moved, in the real world, while in a powerful genjutsu from Oro. Was that will power, alone? Or was it simply combat prowess?
Which really does nothing to help him from having his mind screwed with.
Being tortured like that would seriously screw up Radditz. It be a whole new kinda pain to Radditz. It's not like saiyans thrive on pain just the thrill of battle. It wouldn't be a battle at all. It would be endless pain for days.
Itachi never uses it on Oro in canon though. And if he can torture Kakashi like that, and then use the same exact technique to show Sasuke the slaughter of Uchiha then its obvious he can show different things so why can't he do something different?
Radditz doesn't thrive on pain, he thrives on battle. Fighting, and killing weaker beings are what he does. Now why wouldn't being helpless, and endless tortured mess with him at all? All his power useless and feeling pain he's never felt for longer than any battle has ever fought.
If you mean the genjutsu when they first meet..Different kind of genjutsu. Heck any genjutsu is completely different than Tsukiyomi. Any other genjutsu Radditz can just destroy everything around.
Originally posted by Darth AngelExcept there isn't anything proving it was Tsukiyomi. And even if it was, Sasuke only did it as a paralyzing genjutsu and turned it off without doing anything to break the psyche.Spoiler:I think people are really forgetting about Killer Bee vs Sasuke when they talk about Tsukiyomi...
Originally posted by Kento
Well there missions were never to destroy planets so probably not. Galic Gun was a desperation move, and if they have ever been in a place when Vegeta is desperate Nappa, and Radditz would be dead.
I'll buy this. Makes sense.
Originally posted by Kento
Which really does nothing to help him from having his mind screwed with.
I disagree. His "spiritual force" would be more difficult to overcome, I'd think. It's a baseless conclusion, of course but it just seems logical. Everyone would span genjutsu if it were effective. It works on Naruto because he's an idio-genius.
Originally posted by Kento
Being tortured like that would seriously screw up Radditz. It be a whole new kinda pain to Radditz. It's not like saiyans thrive on pain just the thrill of battle. It wouldn't be a battle at all. It would be endless pain for days.
I'd say no. It wouldn't be a whole new kind of pain. It would just be a longer drawn out form of pain in which Radditz couldn't move.
The frustration would come at Radditz not being able to do anything about it and it would just anger him more and more.
Originally posted by Kento
Itachi never uses it on Oro in canon though. And if he can torture Kakashi like that, and then use the same exact technique to show Sasuke the slaughter of Uchiha then its obvious he can show different things so why can't he do something different?
How would he know which memories to use? This is why, I think, the story writers for the anime concluded that Itachi would use the physical pain torture technique: Itachi cannot read minds.
Originally posted by Kento
Radditz doesn't thrive on pain, he thrives on battle. Fighting, and killing weaker beings are what he does. Now why wouldn't being helpless, and endless tortured mess with him at all? All his power useless and feeling pain he's never felt for longer than any battle has ever fought.
See my two above response to this.
And, no, it makes much more sense that it would only enrage a full blooded, battle hardened, saiyan. It would hurt his pride in addition to making him extremely frustrated.
Also, Itachi would eventually run out of chakra, trying to use high level techniques like that.
Originally posted by Kento
If you mean the genjutsu when they first meet..Different kind of genjutsu. Heck any genjutsu is completely different than Tsukiyomi. Any other genjutsu Radditz can just destroy everything around.
Cool.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
Of course nothing proves that it was tsukiyomi, even if we take in account that it was a genjutsu especifically made with magenko sharingan and one whose appearence was pretty much similar to tsukiyomi...
If either of you can prove your side of it with scans and descriptions of your scans, I'll side with you. (me siding with someone is a really big deal. Yes, I'm serious.)
Originally posted by dadudemonOnly one person can use Tsukiyomi. It's strictly MS technique so they can't spam it. Heck even the person who uses it can't spam it as it uses a lot of chakra.
I'll buy this. Makes sense.I disagree. His "spiritual force" would be more difficult to overcome, I'd think. It's a baseless conclusion, of course but it just seems logical. Everyone would span genjutsu if it were effective. It works on Naruto because he's an idio-genius.
I'd say no. It wouldn't be a whole new kind of pain. It would just be a longer drawn out form of pain in which Radditz couldn't move.
The frustration would come at Radditz not being able to do anything about it and it would just anger him more and more.
How would he know which memories to use? This is why, I think, the story writers for the anime concluded that Itachi would use the physical pain torture technique: Itachi cannot read minds.
See my two above response to this.
And, no, it makes much more sense that it would only enrage a full blooded, battle hardened, saiyan. It would hurt his pride in addition to making him extremely frustrated.
Also, Itachi would eventually run out of chakra, trying to use high level techniques like that.
Cool.
I highly doubt Radditz has felt much pain in his life. They have a low form of invulnerability, and thrill in killing, and him being a low level would be sent to weak planets to begin with. Just like before Vegeta appeared in the series, and suddenly was beaten within his life hundreds of times I doubt he had much pain in his life. They killed people they knew they could beat. Bardock was about the only one who fought people that should have killed him time and time again and somehow managed to win, while barely surviving. They did missions according to their rank for the most part.
It's not like Radditz being angry at his helplessness will keep his mind from breaking or anything. Saiyans don't have any inherent mental blocks or mental strength.
There are more tortures than stabbing somebody repeatedly for 72 hours. He doesn't have to use memories. I just said different kinds of torture. He could probably kill Radditz over and over for days instead of just torturing.
Hurting his pride isn't suddenly going to give him some kind of mental strength. He's not Gokou nor Vegeta.
He needs to use one attack..Tsukiyomi. How would using it once make him run out of chakra. If he had to use it twice he'd never get a chance.
Originally posted by Darth AngelEven still all Sasuke did was use a paralyzing jutsu, and broke it. Sasuke didn't do anything with it if it was Tsukiyomi, and after he broke it then it's over anyway.
Of course nothing proves that it was tsukiyomi, even if we take in account that it was a genjutsu especifically made with magenko sharingan and one whose appearence was pretty much similar to tsukiyomi...
Originally posted by dadudemonSasuke does MS, Killer Bee is shown in black and white with thinks sticking into him, and then well that's all. Sasuke holds his eye, and Killer Bee says he's paralyzed.
If either of you can prove your side of it with scans and descriptions of your scans, I'll side with you. (me siding with someone is a really big deal. Yes, I'm serious.)
Originally posted by Kento
Only one person can use Tsukiyomi. It's strictly MS technique so they can't spam it. Heck even the person who uses it can't spam it as it uses a lot of chakra.I highly doubt Radditz has felt much pain in his life. They have a low form of invulnerability, and thrill in killing, and him being a low level would be sent to weak planets to begin with. Just like before Vegeta appeared in the series, and suddenly was beaten within his life hundreds of times I doubt he had much pain in his life. They killed people they knew they could beat. Bardock was about the only one who fought people that should have killed him time and time again and somehow managed to win, while barely surviving. They did missions according to their rank for the most part.
[QUOTE=12126216]Originally posted by Kento
[B]It's not like Radditz being angry at his helplessness will keep his mind from breaking or anything. Saiyans don't have any inherent mental blocks or mental strength.
This is factually incorrect. Saiyans epitomize mental strength in a fight. They are all like Rock Lee. lol
Originally posted by Kento
There are more tortures than stabbing somebody repeatedly for 72 hours. He doesn't have to use memories. I just said different kinds of torture. He could probably kill Radditz over and over for days instead of just torturing.
Well, he probably wouldn't use memories that he didn't know about, so we know he would do the "physical" torture thing.
Originally posted by Kento
Hurting his pride isn't suddenly going to give him some kind of mental strength. He's not Gokou nor Vegeta.
I disagree. But since I've already stated why, there's no need for me to go "nuh-uuuhh". lol
Originally posted by Kento
He needs to use one attack..Tsukiyomi. How would using it once make him run out of chakra. If he had to use it twice he'd never get a chance.
But den He would dodged it n'stuff. Den Itachi wood be like, "oh..like damn n'stuff."
Originally posted by Kento
Even still all Sasuke did was use a paralyzing jutsu, and broke it. Sasuke didn't do anything with it if it was Tsukiyomi, and after he broke it then it's over anyway.Sasuke does MS, Killer Bee is shown in black and white with thinks sticking into him, and then well that's all. Sasuke holds his eye, and Killer Bee says he's paralyzed.
Scans, or it didn't happen.