Dante (DMC 4) Vs Sephiroth (Advent Children)

Originally posted by Terryc250
What makes Sephiroth more vulnerable then any other character? He let his entire guard down against Cloud, and basically treated like he was fighting a bug.

He teleports in every single game Nomura puts him in, whether it be KH, KH2, Dissidia, FF7, teleporting isn't a materia spell, it's his ability.

I doubt Cloud can pull off Omnislashes whenever he wants, in the game he needed to be injured enough before he can use it as a limit break.

A>B>C works well over 90% of the time, the only way it doesn't work is if one character is a special case, like Kryptonite man can beat Superman but cannot beat Batman while Superman can beat Batman but can't beat Kryptonite man.

Chaos Vincent is much more faster and powerful then Dante, yet if Chaos cannot defeat Sephiroth, how would Dante?

Nothing suggests he can use Devil Trigger anytime he wants, he needs to gain enough power first.

Not an excuse, Sephiroth without even exerting himself has shown to be more faster then Dante already, even Loz is comparable to Dante who is just a fraction of Sephiroths power.

No because evidence suggests that Sephiroth strength is very strong, but we don't know the limits of it, if just by the air output impact of his sword clashing, can crator concrete and iron ground below it, then he must have many many tons worth of strength, think of 2 cars smashing into eachother, the output could probably put out a candle, now think about if it was powerful enough that the air output to crator iron and concrete ground. Sephiroth cuts through concrete with enough power to set it ablaze.

Its not an argument, it means we don't have enough information to determine one of the characters durability, its stated that Sephiroth can regenerate, once the Kadaj took in the Sephiroth cells, Sephiroth regenerated his regular body instantly.

He has no durability feats

Show me please his teleporting, from teleport start to teleport finish (i.e, he casts teleport and ends up where he wants).

In the game.....in the game the characters are also frozen in place while the player chooses his moves..

It doesnt, many characters are very diffrent, A>B>C ime sure most agree is not a logical way to debate for a character.

Who said Sephiroth can beat Chaos, its only stated that he is more powerful, that doesnt mean Chaos cannot defeat him...but this whole statement of Sephiroth being more powerful sounds like hyperbole

Most disagree

yes it is, if his greatest strength feat is not above dantes, he loses, its simple as that, saying "zomg but hes not exerted himself!" is not enough to give sephiroth any points.

BUt he still has no feats so he is automatically lose any durability comparison, and regeneration is not durability.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Show me please his teleporting, from teleport start to teleport finish (i.e, he casts teleport and ends up where he wants).

Who said Sephiroth can beat Chaos, its only stated that he is more powerful, that doesnt mean Chaos cannot defeat him...but this whole statement of Sephiroth being more powerful sounds like hyperbole

yes it is, if his greatest strength feat is not above dantes, he loses, its simple as that, saying "zomg but hes not exerted himself!" is not enough to give sephiroth any points.

Terry already posted him teleporting already.

More powerful, you just answered your own question.

So, even if Seph loses in strength, Dante loses in speed, magic, stamina, etc.

stamina.....stamina is irrelvent, Dante has been shown to go through prolonged battles and not fatigue while fighting enemies far more powerful than Cloud or otherwise. Magic is worthless and Speed is still on the wall, I think its not been conceded by either side between Terry and k1Lla441

Originally posted by Burning thought
stamina.....stamina is irrelvent, Dante has been shown to go through prolonged battles and not fatigue while fighting enemies far more powerful than Cloud or otherwise. Magic is worthless and Speed is still on the wall, I think its not been conceded by either side between Terry and k1Lla441

And Sephiroth hasn't. Advent Children fight between Cloud and Sephiroth, Cloud gets on the ground tired, and Sephiroth isn't even breathing heavy, or sweating.

Nice comeback for magic being useless, nice one.

Speed is easily won by Sephiroth.

show me Sephiroth using magic to his advantage....hes not got a single useful spell that he could do in a fight as fast between him and Dante would be even if it is decided Sephiroth is faster, hes spells sure are not.

meh but you couldnt debate it.....so w/e your statements mean nothing to me..

Originally posted by Burning thought
[b]show me Sephiroth using magic to his advantage....hes not got a single useful spell that he could do in a fight as fast between him and Dante would be even if it is decided Sephiroth is faster, hes spells sure are not.

meh but you couldnt debate it.....so w/e your statements mean nothing to me.. [/B]

Never said he could use magic, never said he couldn't, but saying that magic is useless when you have nothing to back it up is useless in a debate.

Everyone knows Sephiroth is faster.

Advent Children fight shows how fast he is. Zooming from 1 area to the next . And your comeback is what for this?

Originally posted by Ultimate Wil
Never said he could use magic, never said he couldn't, but saying that magic is useless when you have nothing to back it up is useless in a debate.

Everyone knows Sephiroth is faster.

Advent Children fight shows how fast he is. Zooming from 1 area to the next . And your comeback is what for this?

The fact you cant think of anything he could use IS backing up my claim that magic would be useless, FF spells are slow as hell, especially the good ones.

erm no....

That Dante has done similiar feats, stopped bullets anf fought with such speed rain does not even touch the ground, he is equel in speed to his brother and Vergil chops bullets out of the air with his sword....whats Sephiroth got? a sad little flight which is nowhere near as quick and whats speed in a battle against Dante who can slow/freeze time?

Sephiroths speed is useless, his magic will mean little, his strength and durability are non factors....its unlikely he has any chance at all...

Originally posted by Burning thought
He has no durability feats

Show me please his teleporting, from teleport start to teleport finish (i.e, he casts teleport and ends up where he wants).

Sephiroth teleporting in CC in his weakest form, watch the beginning
YouTube video

In the game.....in the game the characters are also frozen in place while the player chooses his moves..

It doesnt, many characters are very diffrent, A>B>C ime sure most agree is not a logical way to debate for a character.

Who said Sephiroth can beat Chaos, its only stated that he is more powerful, that doesnt mean Chaos cannot defeat him...but this whole statement of Sephiroth being more powerful sounds like hyperbole

Most disagree

yes it is, if his greatest strength feat is not above dantes, he loses, its simple as that, saying "zomg but hes not exerted himself!" is not enough to give sephiroth any points.

BUt he still has no feats so he is automatically lose any durability comparison, and regeneration is not durability. [/B]

Originally posted by Terryc250
We don't know the duability of Sephiroth, but he is capable of regenerating

Teleporting isn't casted, its not a spell, its an ability

Sephiroth teleporting in CC in his weakest form, watch the beginning
YouTube video

Because its turn-based?

A>B>C logic only fails for special cases, there is no special case in here, Chaos is much more superior then Dante, and is on a whole different level in just about every way, If Chaos cannot do anything to Sephiroth, what would Dante do?

The statement saying Chaos isn't above Sephiroth, and the statement saying they couldn't make any other character stronger then Sephiroth, and the statement saying Sephiroth is the strongest in the world, pretty much means no one can defeat Sephiroth in FF7. No it doesn'tsound like hyperbole at all, it sounds like direct statements, you can say "Ooh its just hyperbole" to discredit any statement, however this has been stated 3 times, so obviously its not.

Dante hasn't shown any really impressive speed feats, all he has shown is cool llooking go off the screen while the camera focus' on the other guy.

Dante has shown a better strength feat, but it doesn't mean he is stronger, so a statement saying he's stronger strengthwise then Sephiroth is fallacy, its like saying Hulk has shown better strength feats then the Living Tribunal, sure you can say that, but making a statment saying "Hulk is stronger strengthwise then LT" is fallacy.

No it simply means we don't have enough information to make that statement. Regeneration counts as durability, yes.

....wow...thats important when were talking about durability...

Can you prove thats sephiroth? it simply looks like a holagram to me, doesnt look like a real Sephiroth at all and the teleport is massively flawed ot the degree its quite slow when phasing back in and its range seems to be a few meters but still....it looks like a hologram.

Nothing proves or states Chaos could do nothing to Sephiroth.

Them going on about how Sephiroth is "greater" does not mean in every way, shape or form especially when feats say otherwise. And no, your taking its meaning to be that, it doesnt actually say he can beat every character in the world, just that nothing is "above" him. No obviously about it, this hyperbolic statement contradicts everything else in the fiction from Cloud pwning Sephiroth at his strongest, about Sephiroth being beaten several times before then as well and lacking of feats. Dark Jaxx said something interesting earlier about how Omega weapon can apprently wipe out a planet or some such as soon as its activated....

When hes fighting so fast with Vergil that rain doesnt touch the orb they make within made up of their sword slashes is damn far more impressive than Sephiroths little flight.

Yes it does, in KMC Feat>assumption/lack of feat, simple as that, if you want to debate for Sephiroths strength Dante would automatically overpower it, since he has a better feat.

Crappy analogy, because LT is proven to be omnipotent and all powerful, Sephiroth has no feat and your anology fails completly for the same reasons.

erm no.....durability is how much damage something can take to its shell, i.e an armour plating is far more durable than water, the fact that if you stab water with a sword it will simply fill back in doesnt make the water more durable than armour plating...

Originally posted by Burning thought
....wow...thats important when were talking about durability...

Can you prove thats sephiroth? it simply looks like a holagram to me, doesnt look like a real Sephiroth at all and the teleport is massively flawed ot the degree its quite slow when phasing back in and its range seems to be a few meters but still....it looks like a hologram.

Nothing proves or states Chaos could do nothing to Sephiroth.

Them going on about how Sephiroth is "greater" does not mean in every way, shape or form especially when feats say otherwise. And no, your taking its meaning to be that, it doesnt actually say he can beat every character in the world, just that nothing is "above" him. No obviously about it, this hyperbolic statement contradicts everything else in the fiction from Cloud pwning Sephiroth at his strongest, about Sephiroth being beaten several times before then as well and lacking of feats. Dark Jaxx said something interesting earlier about how Omega weapon can apprently wipe out a planet or some such as soon as its activated....

Cloud defeating Sephiroth is 100% IRRELEVANT, so I don't know why you keep bringing that up, Sephiroth didn't use any of his powers or even exert himself in the battle. If Sephiroth went all-out and lost, then you would have something, but he didn't.

Sephiroth is capable of doing everything Omega WEAPON is. But instead of just laying waste to the planet, he could use the planet as his own power.

When hes fighting so fast with Vergil that rain doesnt touch the orb they make within made up of their sword slashes is damn far more impressive than Sephiroths little flight.

Yes it does, in KMC Feat>assumption/lack of feat, simple as that, if you want to debate for Sephiroths strength Dante would automatically overpower it, since he has a better feat.

Crappy analogy, because LT is proven to be omnipotent and all powerful, Sephiroth has no feat and your anology fails completly for the same reasons.

If that logic applies then Hulk who has shown tons of crazy strength feat should be assumed more stronger then LT.

erm no.....durability is how much damage something can take to its shell, i.e an armour plating is far more durable than water, the fact that if you stab water with a sword it will simply fill back in doesnt make the water more durable than armour plating... [/B]

Regenaration = Beable to take more damage = Durability.

Whao, guys! Time-out!

If it has been stated by the creators of the game that Dr. Long.. uh, Sephiroth is above everyone in FF7, then he is. I hope you do not propose that you know better than the creators.

Now, just take the most powerful character in FF7 who has actually shown feats, then work your way up from there. However, this way you're gonna have to make quite a few assumptions.

This brings us to THE problem. Assumptions(no matter how logical) vs. feats.

By feats: it's a close one.
By assumptions: Sephiroth wins.

And again, it depends on what you prefer - assumptions(even if they are very logical) vs. actual feats.

Burning Thought clearly prefers actual feats to assumptions while Terry assumes quite a bit about Sephiroth's power. While neither is inherently wrong, it's still clear that this argument is never going to end.

Remember that Kil'jaeden doesn't have a lot of actual feats, yet he still somehow beats Cloud and Sephiroth. If we were to go purely by feats, then Kil'jaeden would lose to Cloud and a damn hedgehog.

What I'm trying to say is that making assumptions isn't always a bad thing and, as a matter of fact, sometimes you must make assumptions.

EDIT: About the durability vs. regeneration thing. That's how I see it:
Regeneration - ability to recover from injury quickly.
Durability - ability to not being injured in the first place.
I mean, not even Wolverine can regrow a head, right?

Assumption sucks.

And AG is right about regeneration and durability.

Sephiroth has never shown a healing factor.

Unless you count that crap in Bizarro form, if you wanna call that a healing factor. 😬

Originally posted by Terryc250
Regeneration is part of durability, why do you think Wolverine gets such high praise on his durability? Because he has insane regeneration.

Can I prove its Sephiroth? Just use your eyes, or watch the entire video, it is Sephiroth. No, he teleports around more then a "few meters" keep in mind that the fight is limited to the battlefield, he teleports in under a second is slow? When his body is 100% Jenova, his teleport is instantaneous.

Chaos could not defeat Sephiroth or else they wouldn't have stated no one is above Sephiroth. Sephiroth is the strongest character in FF7, fact.

Sephiroth hasn't had the chance to show many of his feats or even flex his powers, so his real powers are open for discussion, the only people who know Sephiroths true powers are infact, the creators of the FF7 characters, and if they say Sephiroth is the most powerful character, then that is fact, and you cannot argue that.

Cloud defeating Sephiroth is 100% IRRELEVANT, so I don't know why you keep bringing that up, Sephiroth didn't use any of his powers or even exert himself in the battle. If Sephiroth went all-out and lost, then you would have something, but he didn't.

Sephiroth is capable of doing everything Omega WEAPON is. But instead of just laying waste to the planet, he could use the planet as his own power.

No, Dante's fight with Vergil doesn't even come close to Sephiroth toying around with Cloud, Dante and Vergils sword clash impact made it so that the rain bounced off the output power... Sephiroth in his weakest form clashed swords with Genesis and the ground caved in..

No, we cannot debate Sephiroth strength because we don't know where his strength level is, wouldn't doubt it if he's as strong as Chaos. Loz who is just a fraction of Sephiroth power, was pulling out feats that were comparable to dantes.

It doesn't matter what the character is, its all about feats right? No feats = no reason to assume anything. Sephiroth is stated the strongest character and even Sephiroths weak remnant had some powerful feats and he's only a fraction of Sephiroths power, but since Sephiroth doesnt have any feats, we have to automatically say the other character is more powerful strength wise.

If that logic applies then Hulk who has shown tons of crazy strength feat should be assumed more stronger then LT.

Regneration counts as durability, its how much damage you can take, if you can regenrate, you can take more damage. Which is why it counts for durability.

Regenaration = Beable to take more damage = Durability.

He gets high praise for his endurance and survivability....not durability....

look the video you showed me is worthless, the sephiroth looks like a transparent hologram unless ime to belive Sephiroth is a glowing blue character...

No Sephiroth is "above" all in FF, what they mean by that only you can assume is that he can beat all beings within it..Fact...Chaos has shown to be faster and vastly powerful to a degree to destroy Sephiroth and his non excistent feats...fact.....Omega weapon is enormous and according to Jaxx, vastly powerful and can destroy worlds....fact...in other words, that statement is hyperbole.

I can say its hyperbole because its illogical and unkown. Either way, your argument and A>B>C logic falls short.

Yes it does, its incredible speed, for a pair to move their blades so fast that it creates a sphere around them where rain cannot enter, is incredible speed, far beyond Sephiroth, same with the fact Dante can fight with Vergil or near to equel terms (and above him) later in the game and Vergil can stop bullets on his sword with ease.

And if Cloud wasnt under massive PIS and Omnislashed at the beginning Sephiroths fans would be drooling over and constantly saying Sephiroth was under PIS.....you still cant debate againt that fact.

Ill w8 until Jaxx can bring up Omega weapons feats again, I remember him saying Omega weapon could do it far faster than Sephiroth who took years just to corrupt the lifestream and be reborn (from yet another of his defeats)

no BS, you completly ignored my point on how the LT is omnipotent and is known to be such....it just shows your still the typical low level debator.

no because your flesh is still being destroyed...your talking about endurance/surviability.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Whao, guys! Time-out!

If it has been stated by the [B]creators of the game that Dr. Long.. uh, Sephiroth is above everyone in FF7, then he is. I hope you do not propose that you know better than the creators.

Now, just take the most powerful character in FF7 who has actually shown feats, then work your way up from there. However, this way you're gonna have to make quite a few assumptions.

This brings us to THE problem. Assumptions(no matter how logical) vs. feats.

By feats: it's a close one.
By assumptions: Sephiroth wins.

And again, it depends on what you prefer - assumptions(even if they are very logical) vs. actual feats.

Burning Thought clearly prefers actual feats to assumptions while Terry assumes quite a bit about Sephiroth's power. While neither is inherently wrong, it's still clear that this argument is never going to end.

Remember that Kil'jaeden doesn't have a lot of actual feats, yet he still somehow beats Cloud and Sephiroth. If we were to go purely by feats, then Kil'jaeden would lose to Cloud and a damn hedgehog.

What I'm trying to say is that making assumptions isn't always a bad thing and, as a matter of fact, sometimes you must make assumptions.

EDIT: About the durability vs. regeneration thing. That's how I see it:
Regeneration - ability to recover from injury quickly.
Durability - ability to not being injured in the first place.
I mean, not even Wolverine can regrow a head, right? [/B]

I dont know as much as the creators, but I know what Hyperbole is, and that statement stinks of it since Sephiroth has shown no feats or evidence to suggest otherwise....

yeh right, a few assumptions, thats exactley where the whole thing falls short, assuming a bunch of rubbish could easily make this forum bereft of any rules when people are constantly going to assume nonsense which is illogical, like Sephiroth being more durable than Omega weapon, or Sephiroth being faster than Omega Weiss just because he is stated above them in a hyperbolic statement.

Kiljaeden has feats applenty and logical statement, the character himself is logical, he comes from a background of beings whos was its day to day practic to use vast and powerful magics since the beginning of the unvierse and he was like their king in a way, he among Archimonde (who he was superior to) were the highest of them...and their power was enhanced even more by Sargeras AKA a super creator entity of unfathomable power.....its logical....thinking Sephiroth is above a speed blitz from Weiss even though his own speed is nowhere close is complete logicless assumption based on whats imo, a large dos of Hyperbole.

But as I said before, if you cant bring logic behind an assumption its pointless isnt it, as I said before youll get "zomg Sephiroth has to be faster than character A coz it can go lightspeeds! or has to be more durable than beast B coz it can survive nukes and sephiroth is above it!" which ofc is nonsense.

Thats pretty much what ime saying but Terry the fool seems to think he knows so much better, or more likely, Terry knows he loves SEphiroth to the max so regen has to be durability just so he can wank off to Sephiroth.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Sephiroth has never shown a healing factor.

Unless you count that crap in Bizarro form, if you wanna call that a healing factor. 😬

Well basically Omega Weapon was doing what Sephiroth was doing and more in a day, where-as it took Sephiroth three years.

Sephiroth was spreading the Negative Lifestream in death, to infect the Lifestream, which was going to be used to kill all the life on the planet, and then using the NL Seph was going to control the planet, and basically use it as a space ship to destroy and absorb other planet's lives.

Omega Weapon was released from its slumber, and its actual job was to kill all the inhabitants of the planet by simply absorbing the Lifestream in its entirety, then Omega Weapon was going to fly it to other planets and use the absorbed Lifestream to start over fresh on a new planet and recreate life. It didn't need to use the planet as a space ship, nor did it need to slowly infect the Lifestream. It was capable of doing this within a day.

Also, although Sephiroth is far more powerful than Cloud, he CAN be killed by him. Cloud was a helpless bystander when a WEAKENED Omega Weapon flew into the air to begin it absorption, until it was destroyed in one attack by Vincent who was amped by Chaos, one of the Weapons(and doing so also destroyed Chaos), and this is actually after Vincent had already weakened it by attacking it from the inside. Omnislash V. 5 would never have killed Omega Weapon like it did Sephiroth, Omega Weapon was near invulnerable on the outside.

And then there are the other things, like how Sephiroth is 6'1" and Omega Weapon towers over the largest cities.

I compare them like this. Sephiroth is a powerful, skilled, fast, and strong humanoid swordsman, whose influence can eventually ravage a planet.

Omega Weapon is on a semi-cosmic level, it is not as flashy, and does not fight much, it is just clearly more powerful by feats. Its like comparing Superman to Galactus.

What are you two arguing btw?

He is argueing how the statement from the creator alone is enough to say Sephiroth is beyond the level of Omega wepaon, Chaos, Weiss etc, and ime saying that the statement is pretty much hyperbole and by feats Sephiroth is nowhere near their level and would be defeated.

Youve just given the evidence for perhaps the major character that seems to be far beyond Sephiroth.....along with the characters that defeated it.

Well the creators are omniscient when it comes to their respective fictions BT.

Even though I think the FFVII writers are pompous ignoramus' with about as much sense of continuity as the mongoloid that made Red Hulk and are just milking the cash cow that FFVII has become.

But yeah, by feats, Sephiroth is not the most powerful character in FFVII. Only by statements.

Originally posted by Terryc250
He's the most powerful character in FF7, fact. And there are characters who would rape Dante in FF7.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, he turned around, wheres the evidence that Dante didn't just move right then and there? The screen wasn't on Dante so we don't know when he moved, for all we know, when the angel machine turned around, Dante moved out of the way, and Angel thought he was still standing there. There is no other speed feat in that vid, just Dante jumping stabbing his sword, then shooting his sword, not much of a speed feat.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Dante can't use Devil Trigger anytime he wants.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Because he was only on screen for like 10 minutes, his weak remnant who is just a fraction of Sephiroths power has comparable speed to Dante himself.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Don't know the limits of Sephiroth strength, but in his weakest form just his sword clashing impact was outputting enough power to crator iron and concrete. His weak remnant who is just a fraction of Sephiroths power was tossing atleast 1 ton of weight like nothing.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Sephiroth has shown faster movement speed, even his weak remnant has comparable speed to Dante.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Sephiroths durability is unknown

Originally posted by Terryc250
Sephiroth doesn't get tired, because he's Jenova

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Whao, guys! Time-out!

If it has been stated by the [B]creators of the game that Dr. Long.. uh, Sephiroth is above everyone in FF7, then he is. I hope you do not propose that you know better than the creators.

Now, just take the most powerful character in FF7 who has actually shown feats, then work your way up from there. However, this way you're gonna have to make quite a few assumptions.

This brings us to THE problem. Assumptions(no matter how logical) vs. feats.

By feats: it's a close one.
By assumptions: Sephiroth wins.

And again, it depends on what you prefer - assumptions(even if they are very logical) vs. actual feats.

Burning Thought clearly prefers actual feats to assumptions while Terry assumes quite a bit about Sephiroth's power. While neither is inherently wrong, it's still clear that this argument is never going to end.

Remember that Kil'jaeden doesn't have a lot of actual feats, yet he still somehow beats Cloud and Sephiroth. If we were to go purely by feats, then Kil'jaeden would lose to Cloud and a damn hedgehog.

What I'm trying to say is that making assumptions isn't always a bad thing and, as a matter of fact, sometimes you must make assumptions.

EDIT: About the durability vs. regeneration thing. That's how I see it:
Regeneration - ability to recover from injury quickly.
Durability - ability to not being injured in the first place.
I mean, not even Wolverine can regrow a head, right? [/B]

There is nothing to assume, because the FFVII writers are dicks, they stated Sephiroth is the most powerful being in FFVII, even though as I clearly explained he does not show it, fact is the writers are infallible in this particular discussion.