I don't know how lol, so hey just try to follow it isn't that hard.
>>>It took Max years of practice and training in telepathic abilities. That doesn’t change the fact, that Max, a low level telepath accomplished it. The raw power and skill Norrin has trumps all that training and practice.
When did Despero out right fail to mind rape Superman? What arc?
I just cannot seem to remember.
Are your referring to the “Crisis of Conscience” arc where Clark was simply the last one standing?
Carnage is a symbiotic being, and Norrin managed to expel him in the end anyways.<<<
Again, Max had took a number of years with very intimate information on supes given his relationship with the leauge. Supes has battled and overcome a skyfather deity in the battle of the minds and won, I wish I could list all the times supes has resisted high level mind manipulation and won.
>>>So you basically ignored everything else I said, for example about the fact that Triumph would have been able to accomplish this and Starfire no less could do it to other Kryptonian’s in battle which was less than a month ago?<<
Not ignoring, I'm simply point out the other situations when Supes has shown great resistance to this type of attack.
>>>Silver Surfer, was absorbing the energy of an entire Star. Draining Clark is valid tactic, if less than a month ago; this ability was being used on other Kryptonian’s by someone vastly inferior to Norrin. Norrin could accomplish what a simple machine failed to do.<<<
If you think so then so be it, I named the situations in which it happened and I alreayd explained supes ability to regenerate nearly instantly while in the rays of the sun. Given the amp in power with the sundipp, it doesn't seem very likly to me.
>>>Superman has been drained before if I remember and has been weakened. I mean how difficult a task would it be for Norrin to simply “block” the Solar Energy in Clark’s cells from the rest of his body. It wouldn’t even be draining Clark, simply denying his body the access to the solar reserves. Clark himself said that this would kill him, to Triumph if I remember. It would take Norrin only a thought to accomplish this.Superman has been shown also to take time to recover from Yellow Solar deprivation, and Norrin has other tactics besides draining like I stated.<<<
Supes is more then just a battery, which is why he can handle fairly well even when depowered. I don't have the example on my mind at the momment, I'll get back to this point laterz though(its a long reply heh)
>>>Why not? This is a somewhat ruthless Silver Surfer who would not hesitate to unleash that type of attack.What would hinder him? It is directly in his power set. I mean Star Dust opened a rip in space while in combat, and compared to this Norrin, Star Dust is pathetic. All it would take is a look and a thought, and no more Clark.<<<
You were the one making the case that speed isn't viable for supes because of the rarity of it's use and the fact that it isn't in supes character....so when exactly has SS used a blackhole offensivly cause it sure as hell would have helped agaisnt all his encounters with Thanos. We don't argure powersets we argue with feats, otherwise all the GL's would be likewise in power lol.
>>>Peak Herald stats compared to who? Wow, why are you resorting to this? Listing the ups of Clark and resorting to the lows of Silver Surfer…
Seriously, crap like this is pointless, because I can do the exact same. I guess if you want to this so bad I’ll humor you.Gog depends on the incarnation and Gog depending on incarnation has kicked Superman’s ass depending on the situation. Darkseid or as I like to call him, Jobberseid does exactly like his name sake suggests. He jobbers to different opponents mainly Superman, and depending on the writer, he has fluctuated. Some of his losses were retconned but the fact that Superman has literally ripped him to pieces, shows he isn’t exactly that impressive any more.Superman Prime, would manhandle Clark. I mean in a weakened state, Clark and a bunch of other heroes dog piled on him and they still couldn’t take him down. The moment the Sun’s rays touched him in Sinestro Corp’s he threw them of with a shrug. Hell he was taking on Clark, Supergirl and both Corps a bit in the end. It took two Supermen to force Superboy Prime into a Red Star (Nice durability feat for Clark by the way)…<<<
If you can try to downplay Supes villians if you want, it doesn't change the fact that he has competed agaisnt legitimate skyfathers and faired decently. I personally don't think high on Thanos, but I wouldn't downplay SS because of the fact that he literally gets raped by him in every encounter.
>>>Thanos would manhandle Clark in a fight in my opinion. Drax is Thanos’ silver bullet, hence why he killed him so easily. He was designed for it. <<<
Funny thing, cause Supes has by sheer feats better durability,strength,speed,striking power and even better showings agaisnt more powerful opponents....
>>>Thor did beat the Thanos during the “Final Morning” arc, but he had magical weapons from Odin enchanted with the remaining Odin Force (Other than Mjolnir), and he also had the Belt of Strength that more than doubled his strength (The same belt he used when he cracked through the entire armor of the Celestial). He also was able to cause Thanos severe harm by crushing the Stone of Illumination.Like I always say, context is very important, and Thor is a power house and losing to him is nothing to be ashamed of. That story arc was an amazing show of strength and durability for Thor. Very impressive, seeing as to what damage he could take from Thanos even with all that power the Titan had and what power Thor himself was able to unleash. That was simply an impressive showing, all around for Thor in my opinion.<<<
Well if you want to consider it a high showing for Thor then by all means, but you understand most people would consider it a low showing for Thanos.
>>>Champion is a jobber, and would be easily man handled by Thanos. He has a great deal of potential as he taps into the power primordial but even with the Power Gem, he is a great jobber. Gamora, was trained by Thanos, and she is dangerous with the God Slayer, and an impressive character, but she would get brushed aside by Thanos.<<<
They are all still below SS characters that have faired better, and that was the point.
>>>That blast was an implosion that was directed into Wildfire’s suit or something along those lines and was an implosion. The Legionnaire ship was right beside the Sun-Eater if I remember correctly and was not even rockedPost-Crisis Superman was pretty weak to an extent. Him being able to survive a Nebula sized destroying blast is ridiculous based on what was able to take him down in other comics, hence why the entire implosion, Wildfire scenario etc.<<<
The blast is what the blast is, a explosion that destroyed a nebula sized sun eater didn't really phase supes...not much to infer from it.
>>>If we are talking about the same Type 2 Supernova, his heat vision is superior to his strength. Are you referring to the time, that news reporter, said that they couldn’t measure the amount of energy Superman can discharge by the “standard” scientific forms of measure, because he derives his power directly from the Sun?How can you base that Superman’s heat vision is more powerful than a core collapse Supernova from that?<<<
Dude, standard scientific measures can gauge type 2 supernova's and the core of the suns....I'm just telling you what was stated in comics. If you want to infer something different from that then go ahead, not going to waste time explaining my opinion of that statment again.
>>>He has more advantages than Clark. Physically, who wins is debatable, but throw in abilities, such as making a black hole in Clark’s chest, should give him the advantage.<<<
Physically how do figure it is even debatable, in most situations when SS is knocked off his board or when the gap is closed...he is literally a fist out of water. You wanna argue about versatility being in SS's favor then fine I already conceded that point, but physically speaking SS has nothing on supes....and the blackhole in the chest thing is about as viable as supes T-Voing SS and duplicating his PC lol.
That thing he held in the palm of his hand, cannot be classified as black hole based on characteristics.
Superman is faster than light, so Clark managing to escape the gravitational pull from further than an event horizon isn’t far fetched. Over powering is one thing, out running is another. [/B][/QUOTE]
>>>In raw speed, who is superior is debatable, but in combat speed, Clark should be more experienced etc. simply based on the way he fights, as Norrin does not used his speed to much in combat, but that doesn’t mean Norrin is incapable of using speed in a fight<<<
Yes it actually does, you have to go by what the characters have applied in battle...not what you think they can do based on there abilities. Fact is, supes has speedster level movment while SS doesn't....it isn't a contest of"what should be or who can possibly do what"
>>>Superman would be a blur to Norrin? Norrin flies at speeds way beyond light like Clark, he has telepathic abilities, his reflexes and timing are easily beyond nano seconds, and he can calculate objects and their velocity so greatly, he can intercept teleporters. Clark would not be a blur to Norrin, far from it.<<<
Umm...I'll say this again, we are talking about combat related speed. Norrin's navigate reflex are not viable in combat, you would need to present a situation when SS has fought at high speed and displayed the ability to avoid extremly quick attacks. The only indication we have of SS fighting someone who has similar speed application like clark has been the runner....and we all know how that went.
>>>Throw in the fact, that Norrin is also upgraded as well, and that is underestimating Silver Surfer greatly. Silver Surfer, has very impressive reflexes simply based on his method of travel….
<<<
Combat related, a lot of people make this mistake of thinking navigation reflex somehow translates to combat related reflex....it's a common mistake so we can forget it was brought up.
>>>Pre-Crisis Superman > Sun dipped current Superman<<<
No argument here.
>>>Countered by what? Clark does not have any matter manipulation I’m aware of.Norrin can turn the blood in his vessels to lead or something along those lines. Muscle and strength are really not that significant against an opponent who can screw with your inner mechanisms on every level. Superman has nothing to directly counter, Norrin turning Clark nervous system into a pain making machine etc. Superman’s inside is not as durable as inside (To an extent) as proven by characters such as Manchester Black.<<<
Yeah I know this bit, the forum SS is quite a different creature then his comic counterpart. Although as I've said, Supes has delt with this type of stuff before, not always good but not always bad either....given supes tremendous speed advantage and considering that i've never really seen SS apply a lot of thise stuff offensivly, I'm personally under the opinion it will amount to nothing.
>>>Isn’t nearly as strong or as fast?Based on what, exactly as in the past at his weakest state ever, Norrin has beaten the crap out of the Warbound, and the same Green Scar who held the tectonic plates of his planet together, matched Thor in strength etc (Not trying to get into a feat naming competition as that would take all day but simply showing examples that Norrin is definitely comparable).<<<
Bases on pure feats, you really wanna try to compare who applies speed better and who hits harder?
>>>This was all in his base. Silver Surfer can augment his strength to incredible levels and it seems here he is at those levels. He and Clark have both been amped to “undefined” levels, so how can you say with a straight face, that one is stronger than the other, when we do not know the limit of either?<<<
Feats tend to help, speculation is nice and all but when we have legitimate feats of supes pushing agaisnt a planet with FTL jets it's kind of hard to stick with the"unlimited power"routine. A lot of characters have undefined levels of strength...which is why we use feats to infer who is stronger.
>>>How is Silver Surfer not nearly as fast?He like Clark can easily travel beyond light speed without any effort. He is also extremely augmented here, so again this is debatable <<<
Sigh.....keyword being travelled. This isn't a race, this is a fight...thus we use the characters application of speed to determine speed. SS doesn't apply speed to the same degree Supes does...not even comparable. Supes movement is second to wally, but it isn't like his movement speed that makes him fast it's also his application....given the amp in stats we have no idea how fast he can move. Although as a indication, merely sunamp'ed he rushed DS all the way to the source wall in just 3 panels...and the source wall is at the edge of the DCU. Now knowing every function of speed for supes is attributed by his movement speed and not a external device such as a board or hammer....all he would need to do is apply this speed offensivly in combat like he's shown he is capable of in the past for the fight to be over in a relativly short amount of time.
>>>When Superman, “barely” managed to bit Thor in a fist fight, where they were fighting to Clark’s strength’s (Clark would have an easier time fighting against Thor in a brawl than in a versatility fight) and stand up straight, and Thor was still down played in that fight as obvious to the showing. Superman was also down played to an extent.<<<
So in otherword you think it was CIS fo supes and it isn't valid, good to know.
>>>Using that fight, is an inaccurate showing of both characters, more so for Thor, especially seeing as what damage he has taken in the past, and what damage a punch from the Superman of that “time” could unleash.<<<
Ur right, supes could have just used his speed to "DBZ style"thors ass into a KO....but that would have been a lame fight to read lol.
>>>Again, you use losing to Thor as something as a low feat, and when did Norrin get an amp to fight Thor?<<<
>>>Are you referring to the time he got an amp from Loki? That was when Norrin himself was weakened, and needed the amp to stand a chance if I remember and his versatility wasn’t actually used in that fight and neither was Thor’s.<<<
Yet Thor was still holding back and the match was kind of a stalemate, supes was very decisive...and SS did have 2 shots to get the job done but failed on the 2 occasions.
>>>The Runner is one thing but Clark is another. Besides, Norrin has already proven in the past, on different occasions, that he has the necessary abilities to counter Clark’s speed.<<<
Such as, supes has the speed application and Norrin does not. SS fought a character who moves similar to clark in battle and got WTFPWN'ed....it is what it is dude.
>>>Ok, so the fact that Silver Surfer, can manipulate matter and energy, open up black holes etc, is nullified?Dude, Superman isn’t indestructible. Even current Superman has been hurt by much less than what Norrin can offer.<<<
Likewise for SS.
>>>It’s as if in your eyes, nothing short of Kryptonite and red Solar radiation can even harm him.How hard would it be for Norrin to transform the material in Clark’s lungs to adamantium etc. <<<
????......
>>>With his abilities, all you have to do is use the imagination.It wouldn’t be suicide, again I believe you are underplaying Norrin.<<<
Oh sorry I thought were debating "what is" and as opposed to"what we want". I see past the smoke and mirror's because when I stop to think of SS battle tendecy and how he applies himself in battle...it isn't even the same character you are describing. Application is what's imporant.....we have feats to either affirm or to denounce our own personal opinion. I've seen supes internalize HV and ionize the environment around him, but I would never suggest he could ionize the cells in SS's brain and simply ignite it to a implosion that would destory Norrin lol.
>>>You can not clearly state that Superman is superior to Silver Surfer physically. This is highly debatable as both have been severely augmented. Superman has the advantage in speed during combat, but Norrin has his own advantages that even things out, so this is highly debatable.<<<
No it isn't, we have the merits of a little thing called"feats"to find out what is viable and what isn't. Aside from speculation on what SS stats should be, we have concrete examples of suppes strength and speed...we only have"assumptions"on norrins.
>>>Who said this is a pure brawl though? Everything except Kryptonite and red Solar radiation is valid. mean Clark superiority is debatable here as well but this is not a pure brawl so it’s irrelevant. Let’s agree to disagree, then, as we are not getting anywhere.<<<
If u decide to debate with SS as he is and not what you think he can be, we can have a serious discussion....untill then let's agreee to disagree.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
😎Galen did...
Now it's a ***** because I have to reply, and he doesn't quote those bastards, and it's really hard to see where my posts end and his begin.
Anyway's later.
I'll be honest, if you're reply is to long I probably will just breeze over it lol, just stick to the important points heh.