Darkseid vs Depowered Tyrant

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
BUT THE LIFE EQUATION DIDN'T FIX A GOD DAMN THING. It was used to break the remnants of Darkseid's control and finish him off.

It was Superman's wish for a happy ending that fixed things, not the life equation. You're the one who completely misread the story. 😬

And for the last time, the ALE did not warp the multiverse or cause the singularity. And you have no proof to back up your side.

Originally posted by Allankles
The ALE had nothing to do with DS' singularity that was DS falling through reality. He then assumed a human host to arrest this fall and then began creating a singularity from that point with the intention of drawing the whole multiverse to his position and then ( I assume erasing all free will for all sentient beings).

DS has been described as the god of anti-life, meaning his entire being is in direct contradiction with the Life Equation. The issue wasn't the ALE itself (which is just knowledge of a sort) but Darkseid's actual spirit being expelled from reality.

I don't care what you think DS is described as in your mind. I care how the Miracle Machine is described on-panel. The heroes fixed everything with the Miracle Machine. The Miracle Machine uses the Life Equation to fulfill it's user's wish (in this case, Superman's). If the Life Equation can restore the DC Multiverse entirely, you really think the Anti-Life Equation is simply a mind-control spell?

BUT THE LIFE EQUATION DIDN'T FIX A THING. it was the 2nd wish, after he put the X element and his power in, that's what fixed it, not the life equation.

Your whole point is wrong.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
BUT THE LIFE EQUATION DIDN'T FIX A THING. it was the 2nd wish, after he put the X element and his power in, that's what fixed it, not the life equation.

Your whole point is wrong.

I can't believe I am even having this conversation right now.

But the machine was not finished when the life equation was used. Superman said the X element was the last piece of the jigsaw.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
But the machine was not finished when the life equation was used. Superman said the X element was the last piece of the jigsaw.

What are you talking about? I know the Element X retrieved from Metron's chair was the last piece of the jigsaw. Which is why I told you there was no way that Superman could have made two wishes. Because the Miracle Machine wasn't completed until he inserted Element X into it. Element X is a piece of the Miracle Machine, Superman's solar power activated it. The Life Equation is how the Miracle Machine fulfill's it's user's wish.

There was no Life Equation used before Superman made his wish. We obviously have different views of Final Crisis, but you are really confusing things here. If you think the Life Equation was used before Superman made a wish, show me where or tell me for what. If you think Superman then made two wishes, show me where or tell me for what. Because I have no idea what you're talking about anymore.

You have a huge problem here. Superman was talking about using the life equation when he sang that song.

you can't prove it was the life equation that fixed everything, only that it destroyed Darkseid'd spirit.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You have a huge problem here. Superman was talking about using the life equation when he sang that song.

you can't prove it was the life equation that fixed everything, only that it destroyed Darkseid'd spirit.

Look, ok. I'm not lacing anymore of my posts in sarcasm. So I'm serious when I mean this, you're really mixing things up. Darkseid's spirit was not destroyed by: 1) the Life Equation; or 2) a wish by Superman.

Why was it not the Life Equation that destroys Darkseid? Because Superman clearly describes the song he sings as counter-vibrations, which he learned in Superman Beyond while touring the Multiverse for the Bleed that would save Lois' life:

Why was it not a wish by Superman that destroys Darkseid? Because as we both pointed, the Miracle Machine had not been finished yet until Superman put Element X into it and powered it with his solar energy, which is the next page AFTER Darkseid's spirit has been destroyed:

I'm not very familiar with Tyrant so I can't answer who would win this fight.

But Darkseid in FC causes the multiverse to collapse under his own power.

The ALE as described through the series and in the secret files does one thing and one thing only.
Proves that DS is the rightful master of all.
That's it.

In the Secret Files Libra says"I introduced them to the ALE" and he is shown putting the mind control helmet on someone.

It's clear that the ALE is only a means of mind control. That is established on panel.
Morrison himself states that in Secret Files (on the ALE page)
And being the guy who wrote FC, I'll take his WRITTEN, ON-PANEL proof any day of the week against some attempts to downplay DS's feats.

Everything that happened in FC is due to DS's manifestation on Earth.
And that is also established on panel.

Originally posted by comicfan11
I'm not very familiar with Tyrant so I can't answer who would win this fight.

But Darkseid in FC causes the multiverse to collapse under his own power.

The ALE as described through the series and in the secret files does one thing and one thing only.
Proves that DS is the rightful master of all.
That's it.

In the Secret Files Libra says"I introduced them to the ALE" and he is shown putting the mind control helmet on someone.

It's clear that the ALE is only a means of mind control. That is established on panel.
Morrison himself states that in Secret Files (on the ALE page)
And being the guy who wrote FC, I'll take his WRITTEN, ON-PANEL proof any day of the week against some attempts to downplay DS's feats.

Everything that happened in FC is due to DS's manifestation on Earth.
And that is also established on panel.

I, unlike many haters here, thought Grant's story was quite imaginative, if not so well-executed. And I'll say this for you: You seriously make Final Crisis a much more boring read in your eyes with your tunnel-vision and preference of Secret Files over Mr Miracle's own on-panel words and the on-panel description of the Miracle Machine. I never thought I'd see the day when DC fanboys would lowball the Anti-Life Equation...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I understand that as a result of his fight with Orion, Darkseid is dying. And Darkseid dying = him falling through the broken Multiverse. His dying/falling drags it with him into the singularity. But the breakdown of time and space was a result of the war between the New Gods, as stated by Mr. Miracle in Final Crisis #5. You think that war and its effects had nothing to do with the Anti-Life Equation? That the Anti-Life Equation is nothing but mind-control? That the Life Equation calculated by the Miracle Machine, which restored the Multiverse, didn't counter an Anti-Life Equation?

I, unlike many haters here, thought Grant's story was quite imaginative, if not so well-executed. And I'll say this for you: You seriously make Final Crisis a much more boring read in your eyes with your tunnel-vision and preference of Secret Files over Mr Miracle's own on-panel words and the on-panel description of the Miracle Machine. I never thought I'd see the day when DC fanboys would lowball the Anti-Life Equation...

Thanx for your kind words...

Anyway despite all you say the fact remains.
Grant Morrison himself stated that "The ALE is mathematical proof of Darkseid being the rightful ruler of the universe"
Nothing else nothing more.

If you can post a scan sating otherwise the we can talk about it.
Plus Libra also knows the ALE (seeing how he is enslaving others) and he has been on earth before DS Turpin's rebirth BUT time started collapsing only after DS was fully reborn.

So by your logic Libra could also accomplish what DS did.

Plus Boss Darkside (FC issues 1-3) also had possesion of the ALE (infecting those kids that beat up Turpin) BUT by that point nothing happened to the multiverse (GL's could fly to earth etc).

All in all NO.
The ALE wasn't responsible for the collapse of the multiverse.
Darkseid was under his own power that truly manifested for the first time.

As for the ALE restoring the Multiverse that is also incorrect.
Why?
Lets see.
In FC 7 page 26 Superman finally uses the Miracle Machine (after he sung DS to death). He states it to Mandrakk when he says he'll use all of his solar powers if it takes to activate the Miracle Machine. Sparks appear to the Miracle Machine and then Mandrakk asks him "what have you done?". This is the moment he uses the Miracle Machine.

And what happens?
The army of Supermen arrives and also Nix Uotan, who specifically states "Superman your signal has been received and understood.This is between Monitors now".
The all the assembled cast defeats Mandrakk.

So Superman wished for a happy ending which came through Nix Uotan.
He didn't wish for something specific "restore the multiverse or undo DS's Damage" or anything like that.

After Mandrakk was dead the process of the Multiverse repairing wasn't instant.
In the next pages it is clearly stated when the Monitors are together "The damage causes to the Orery of the worlds (that's the multiverse) is UNDER repair. As it was ever done so shall it be done again"
Some pages later it's stated again "Repairs were accomplished, time anomalies corrected, etc"
It even shows some heroes dragging one Earth to it's original place. That's not the Miracle Machine's doing.

So no the ALE did nothing to the multiverse.
It was all Darkseid.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Thanx for your kind words...

Anyway despite all you say the fact remains.
Grant Morrison himself stated that "The ALE is mathematical proof of Darkseid being the rightful ruler of the universe"
Nothing else nothing more.

If you can post a scan sating otherwise the we can talk about it.
Plus Libra also knows the ALE (seeing how he is enslaving others) and he has been on earth before DS Turpin's rebirth BUT time started collapsing only after DS was fully reborn.

So by your logic Libra could also accomplish what DS did.

Plus Boss Darkside (FC issues 1-3) also had possesion of the ALE (infecting those kids that beat up Turpin) BUT by that point nothing happened to the multiverse (GL's could fly to earth etc).

All in all NO.
The ALE wasn't responsible for the collapse of the multiverse.
Darkseid was under his own power that truly manifested for the first time.

Originally posted by comicfan11
As for the ALE restoring the Multiverse that is also incorrect.
Why?
Lets see.
In FC 7 page 26 Superman finally uses the Miracle Machine (after he sung DS to death). He states it to Mandrakk when he says he'll use all of his solar powers if it takes to activate the Miracle Machine. Sparks appear to the Miracle Machine and then Mandrakk asks him "what have you done?". This is the moment he uses the Miracle Machine.

And what happens?
The army of Supermen arrives and also Nix Uotan, who specifically states "Superman your signal has been received and understood.This is between Monitors now".
The all the assembled cast defeats Mandrakk.

So Superman wished for a happy ending which came through Nix Uotan.
He didn't wish for something specific "restore the multiverse or undo DS's Damage" or anything like that.

After Mandrakk was dead the process of the Multiverse repairing wasn't instant.
In the next pages it is clearly stated when the Monitors are together "The damage causes to the Orery of the worlds (that's the multiverse) is UNDER repair. As it was ever done so shall it be done again"
Some pages later it's stated again "Repairs were accomplished, time anomalies corrected, etc"
It even shows some heroes dragging one Earth to it's original place. That's not the Miracle Machine's doing.

So no the ALE did nothing to the multiverse.
It was all Darkseid.

Superman's wish for a happy ending wasn't specific? Who said it was specific for fixing the Multiverse? I know he wished for the happy ending. But apparently, it must be specific in your mind because in your interpretation, all it did was bring Nix Uotan. More double-standards where it's ok for you to do it, but not for me.

The complete happy ending of Final Crisis is exactly the doing of the Miracle Machine. Which is obvious because everything falls into place by the grace of his wish manifested. Nix Uotan being summoned, the Pax Dei Angels, the Supermen, the GLC was only the first part of his wish being granted. You really think the last scene of Nix Uotan and Weeja Dell fading and Nix being reborn ISN'T a result of the Miracle Machine? Don't be ridiculous. How can you read Final Crisis in such a narrow way?

How can you read Mr. Miracle's own words in Final Crisis #5 describing how the war between the New Gods broke time and space down and sit there and dictate to me that Darkseid collapsed the Multiverse under his own power? Give me a break.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Some people don't like how disjointed Final Crisis: Revelations was with the main storyline, but even Cain who bound Spectre with the Spear of Destiny makes Spectre speak the Anti-Life Equation to "unmake creation" and "rebuild the world in Darkseid's name." So who's ignoring what was said now? And don't even try to use prior appearances of the ALE to justify your criticisms of my view. Turnign that around on you, Darkseid had manifested on Earth before as Boss DarkSide and the Multiverse never collapsed before. So how could his manifestation in the body of Turpin do it? Nothing on-panel states that Darkseid has truly manifested for the first time. That's you injecting your view into the story. See how your double-standards shoot your own views down? Just as easily as you saying this is the first time Darkseid truly manifested his power, I can easily justify myself by saying that this is the first true manifestation of the effects of the Anti-Life Equation. You're using a conclusory argument.
First off. I never said the ALE restored the Multiverse. The Miracle Machine calculated the Life Equation which restored the universe.

Superman's wish for a happy ending wasn't specific? Who said it was specific for fixing the Multiverse? But apparently, it must be specific in your mind because in your interpretation, all it did was bring Nix Uotan. More double-standards.

The complete happy ending of Final Crisis is exactly the doing of the Miracle Machine. Which is obvious because everything falls into place by the grace of his wish manifested. Nix Uotan being summoned, the Pax Dei Angels, the Supermen, the GLC was onyl the first part of his wish being granted. You really think the last scene of Nix Uotan and Weeja Dell fading and Nix being reborn ISN'T a result of the Miracle Machine? Don't be ridiculous. How can you read Final Crisis in such a narrow way?

How can you read Mr. Miracle's own words in Final Crisis #5 describing how the war between the New Gods broke time and space down and sit there and dictate to me that Darkseid collapsed the Multiverse under his own power? Give me a break.

😆
You are funny.
Apart from Darkseid himself stating on FC 5 that "they've only faced the idea of a God before. Now is God incarnate come among them" and the numerous times that Morrison himself stated that this is the first time DS truly appears, your statement doesn't even need me to disapprove it.
It's simply not based on ANYTHING shown on a comic book.

Plus you steel fail to show on panel evidence that the ALE (according to Morrison) is something more than what it is stated on FC. Maybe because there isn't and you just try to make things up.
If you can provide a scan or a page refference maybe you can make a point.
Until then keep trying.

As for the monitors it was their decision to stop interfering with the "Germ World".
Ni Uotan says "I saw what WE'd (the Monitors) had to sacrifice to save them. This is OUR Final Crisis"
It is their choice after they have seen what damage they have caused.
Again on panel.

So the question is how can you claim any of your invalid and unbased on actual proof claims?

Originally posted by comicfan11
😆
You are funny.
Apart from Darkseid himself stating on FC 5 that "they've only faced the idea of a God before. Now is God incarnate come among them" and the numerous times that Morrison himself stated that this is the first time DS truly appears, your statement doesn't even need me to disapprove it.
It's simply not based on ANYTHING shown on a comic book.

NRAMA: Afterwards, Metron welcomes the Fifth World – the age of men as gods. Wasn’t the Fifth World Darkseid’s “World” and age?

GM: Sez Darkseid! Just as Hitler thought the future belonged to the Fuhrer and his glorious Thousand Year Reich, so does Darkseid overestimate his place in the Great Story.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Plus you steel fail to show on panel evidence that the ALE (according to Morrison) is something more than what it is stated on FC. Maybe because there isn't and you just try to make things up.
If you can provide a scan or a page refference maybe you can make a point.
Until then keep trying.

Originally posted by comicfan11
As for the monitors it was their decision to stop interfering with the "Germ World".
Ni Uotan says "I saw what WE'd (the Monitors) had to sacrifice to save them. This is OUR Final Crisis"
It is their choice after they have seen what damage they have caused.
Again on panel.

So the question is how can you claim any of your invalid and unbased on actual proof claims?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You are not funny. At all. Batman stated that this incarnation of Darkseid was merely him crawling into the gutter and dying. You act like Darkseid fully manifested his true power in Final Crisis by stomping in all full of power and glory. Batman had it right from the beginning, Darkseid was nearly murdered by Orion in the war of the New Gods that ripped asunder time and space. And Darkseid crawled into the body of Dan Turpin still dying. And you act like Darkseid's own words dictate what's true or not? How about Grant's own words, which you so seem to love:

NRAMA: Afterwards, Metron welcomes the Fifth World – the age of men as gods. Wasn’t the Fifth World Darkseid’s “World” and age?

GM: Sez Darkseid! Just as Hitler thought the future belonged to the Fuhrer and his glorious Thousand Year Reich, so does Darkseid overestimate his place in the Great Story.
Already gave you the reference from Final Crisis: Revelations #4. Keep ignoring what's actually said on-panel about it. While you're at it, ignore what Mr. Miracle says too. Oh... and while you're at it... go ahead and ignore what's said about the Miracle Machine too.
Yes. It was their decision to stop interfering with the Multiverse, no sh1t. You act like you're countering some incorrect plot point I made. These two final pages show what the Miracle Machine did. Despite Nix Uotan and Weeja Dell believing their story is at an end, despite them believing that Monitors had to make their own peace and rid themselves from the Multiverse as they and their world fade from meaningful existence, Superman's wish made it so that their stories were just beginning. How could you possibly have missed this? It's pretty much the friggin ending:

Darkseid was crawling after his battle with Orion BUT even so this was his first real appearance in this universe as his real self. A being that still had the power to drag the multiverse with him.
This is stated on panel on many instances in FC.

Again you don't provide any evidence that shows the ALE to be able to do something more than subject people to DS's will, let alone remake the universe.
It's basically your claims against Morrison's (not mine) and in this case he has you beat I would say.
Darkseid's failure to actually complete his plan doesn't have to do with the ALE or his feat of dragging the multiverse. He started doing it but he was stopped.
Completely irrelevant.

Give a page reference or a scan as I have done and proven you completely wrong.

As for Nix Uotan believing his story was over.
Again you are wrong.
Issue 7 page 32. Nix Uotan says "I conclude my report and I'm ready to RETURN TO MY DUTIES."
He already knew he was not going to die or finish or anything.
Just that the monitors interference with the Earths was over as they agreed.
On panel evidence.

As for Revelations it further strengthens what I'm saying about the ALE. Vandal Savage is using the ALE through the Spectre to enslave more people to DS's will as shown in the two page spread. When he says it people around the globe that were previously unaffected become enslaved. "And their freedom shall be a memory. And all will be come one in darkness."
THX you actually continue helping me prove you wrong.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Darkseid was crawling after his battle with Orion BUT even so this was his first real appearance in this universe as his real self. A being that still had the power to drag the multiverse with him.
This is stated on panel on many instances in FC.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Again you don't provide any evidence that shows the ALE to be able to do something more than subject people to DS's will, let alone remake the universe.
It's basically your claims against Morrison's (not mine) and in this case he has you beat I would say.
Darkseid's failure to actually complete his plan doesn't have to do with the ALE or his feat of dragging the multiverse. He started doing it but he was stopped.
Completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Give a page reference or a scan as I have done and proven you completely wrong.

Originally posted by comicfan11
As for Nix Uotan believing his story was over.
Again you are wrong.
Issue 7 page 32. Nix Uotan says "I conclude my report and I'm ready to RETURN TO MY DUTIES."
He already knew he was not going to die or finish or anything.
Just that the monitors interference with the Earths was over as they agreed.
On panel evidence.

Originally posted by comicfan11
As for Revelations it further strengthens what I'm saying about the ALE. Vandal Savage is using the ALE through the Spectre to enslave more people to DS's will as shown in the two page spread. When he says it people around the globe that were previously unaffected become enslaved. "And their freedom shall be a memory. And all will be come one in darkness."
THX you actually continue helping me prove you wrong.

Still ignoring Mr. Miracle's words. And Batman's words. Still ignoring the narrative description of the Miracle Machine. Now you can ignore Cain's and Spectre's own words also. Keep it up.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No, it doesn't say that Darkseid's power is pulling the Multiverse into the singularity. It's stated multiple times that his falling through the Multiverse is pulling it through to the singularity. And the thing that broke time and space was the war of the New Gods before Final Crisis #1.
The point you made is completely irrelevant. Straw-man. I rebutted your statement that Darkseid's own words are meaningful evidence since Morrison himself stated Darkseid was utterly wrong. Don't try to recast my argument into something it's not.
Uh no. I am the one giving page references, scans and quotes from the actual comics and actual interviews. You have been doing nothing but making sweeping generalizations, referring to vague interviews/handbooks, etc. Turn the magnifying glass on yourself.
Oh yes. I'm sure both of them talking about this being their "last day," and him responding "I think so," as everything fades away and Nix Uotan waking up with this flabbergasted look of surprise on the last page is Nix knowing exactly what was going to happen. Them talking abotu Superman's wish for all of them, for a happy ending has nothing to do with what's actualyl occurring on-panel.
Of course the Anti-Life Equation broadcast will have the affect of enslaving them all. That is a natural consequence of the Anti-Life Equation that we all know about. But if the only thing that happened and unhappened was people's minds being taken over, how do you possibly explain away these words in Final Crisis: Revelations #4: "Unmake creation." "Rebuild the world in Darkseid's name." "The spell of the ending." And then how do you explain when Spectre restores everything around the world in Final Crisis: Revelation #5 and refers to it as: "Let that which was unmade be re-formed!" Nice try.

Still ignoring Mr. Miracle's words. And Batman's words. Still ignoring the narrative description of the Miracle Machine. Now you can ignore Cain's and Spectre's own words also. Keep it up.

Darkseid's rebirth in Turpins body began in FC 2-3.
That's when the multiverse started breaking. That was BEFORE Supergirl went to the fortress of solitude when the Spectre used the ALE.
So Spectre had nothing to do with the multiverse.
Nice try btw

I'm not ignoring anything.
I'm just pointing what you want to twist to fit your claims.
You keep mentioning your references without actually what they are.

I have proven time and time again that things started changing when DS transferred his essence in Turpin's body but still you are blind to it.
If it was the ALE that broke time then he would have done it months ago BECAUSE HE WAS ALREADY ON EARTH AS BOSS DARKSIDE. He even states that he needed a strong spirit to break (Turpin) in order to fully manifest but still you just ignore this little detail.

And for the final time in Morrison's own words the he already said that we would witness the true Darkseid and that's what we did. Oracle says the same thing on panel.
I'm still waiting on something to prove that the ALE is something different than the WRITER of the story says it is, meaning what YOU WANT IT TO BE IN ORDER TO PROVE YOUR POINT.

To sum up.
1. In Revelations things started going downhill BEFORE the Spectre's interference.
2. Nix Uotan said he would return to his duties meaning he knew he was going back to earth AFTER the Monitors agreed to leave the multiverse alone.
3. Darkseid failed to complete his plan ultimately but that doesn't change the fact he did hurt the multiverse in the process UNDER HIS OWN POWER. Even the GL's power fades when he is being reborn., starts raining blood etc. That is waaay after the ALE was released by Mokari. It's all DS's power.
4. As for Spectre remaking anything. It's clearly stated on FC 7 that the repairs are being made by the Monitors and that takes time. The efforts are common effort and it's clearly shown that everybody takes part like the HEROES THAT RESTORE ONE EARTH BY MOVING IT.
5. Finally everything started changing during DS's rebirth in Turpin's body. Not before. Not After. If it was a different case BOSS DARKSIDE would do the same since he has been on earths FOR MONTHS AFTER THE WAR IN HEAVEN. BUT HE DIDN"T BECAUSE HE HAD TO BE FULLY REBORN.

All of the above actually happen on PANEL unlike most of your points.

I think I'm done with this thread and I'm sure whoever reads our points can make up his mind.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Darkseid's rebirth in Turpins body began in FC 2-3.
That's when the multiverse started breaking. That was BEFORE Supergirl went to the fortress of solitude when the Spectre used the ALE.
So Spectre had nothing to do with the multiverse.
Nice try btw

I'm not ignoring anything.
I'm just pointing what you want to twist to fit your claims.
You keep mentioning your references without actually what they are.

I have proven time and time again that things started changing when DS transferred his essence in Turpin's body but still you are blind to it.
If it was the ALE that broke time then he would have done it months ago BECAUSE HE WAS ALREADY ON EARTH AS BOSS DARKSIDE. He even states that he needed a strong spirit to break (Turpin) in order to fully manifest but still you just ignore this little detail.

And for the final time in Morrison's own words the he already said that we would witness the true Darkseid and that's what we did. Oracle says the same thing on panel.
I'm still waiting on something to prove that the ALE is something different than the WRITER of the story says it is, meaning what YOU WANT IT TO BE IN ORDER TO PROVE YOUR POINT.

To sum up.
1. In Revelations things started going downhill BEFORE the Spectre's interference.
2. Nix Uotan said he would return to his duties meaning he knew he was going back to earth AFTER the Monitors agreed to leave the multiverse alone.
3. Darkseid failed to complete his plan ultimately but that doesn't change the fact he did hurt the multiverse in the process UNDER HIS OWN POWER. Even the GL's power fades when he is being reborn., starts raining blood etc. That is waaay after the ALE was released by Mokari. It's all DS's power.
4. As for Spectre remaking anything. It's clearly stated on FC 7 that the repairs are being made by the Monitors and that takes time. The efforts are common effort and it's clearly shown that everybody takes part like the HEROES THAT RESTORE ONE EARTH BY MOVING IT.
5. Finally everything started changing during DS's rebirth in Turpin's body. Not before. Not After. If it was a different case BOSS DARKSIDE would do the same since he has been on earths FOR MONTHS AFTER THE WAR IN HEAVEN. BUT HE DIDN"T BECAUSE HE HAD TO BE FULLY REBORN.

All of the above actually happen on PANEL unlike most of your points.

I think I'm done with this thread and I'm sure whoever reads our points can make up his mind.

Originally posted by fangirl101
You actually responded to that blob of dc new gods haterism that he posted? Shame on you. Anyone with half a brain knows that the ALE as described by Morrison is only used to strip free will.

😆 😆 😆

Oh well I just can't help it.
I can agree with someone bashing some characters I like when their arguments are actually based on some proof but this tops it all.

It's basically his word against Grant Morrison's
My money is on the writer of the story...

Spectre's unmaking of creation was TO REMOVE FREE WILL, the gift of the Presence, and the thing that defines creation itself.

Anything else, like earth becoming Apokolips 2, is a reflection of that, or caused by the Spectre-force being chained by cain.

Well you are right Comicfan sorry Onedumb you are wrong.. Cain used The ALE on the Spectre and "The Spectre" not the "ALE" remade creation under Darkseid!! The Spectre also spreaded it across most of the world to enslave more free willed people. Also yes Darkseid broke space and time all by himself, the Guardians confirmed it when they was watching from Oa and Darkseid cut the Multiverse off from the rest of the Universe to begin remaking everything under him.. Good Job Morrison on FC 😎 , most who bash it don't even understand it or DCU History which is something you 'must' know before reading it! Johns was probably the one who put the animals in it at the end because Didio likes them, that is NOT how Morrison writes his story's and since it was together he let him, which is fine by me cause everything else is so much more interesting. 🙂

Btw I just hope Johns doesn't put them in Blackest Knight more then the 1 showing in FC, since its his own work, if he does more the newbs will be all over that and ignore the story! 😆