Darkseid vs Depowered Tyrant

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
let me ask you something. No sarcasm intended, and you can flame all you damn want. How did Wonderwoman prevent people from hurting each other with her Lasso of Truth? What did bindng Darkseid do? "Did it, or did it not, cancel out the subjugation of will of the ALE or not?"

ANSWER YES OR NO.

Also, to everybody else arguing with me, "WHEN DID DARKSEID LEARN THE FULL ALE IN?" At the end of Seven Soldiers, right? Which is pretty much the lead-up to the war of the New Gods and Final Crisis, right? Answer me this question, "Darkseid's gaining of the ALE has NOTHING to do with the cosmic war of the New Gods?"

ANSWER YES OR NO.

you obviously understood NOTHING about Seven soldiers and FC. So sit down son, because I'm going to explain it to you very slowly.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Because SS proves that FC was started by a temporal paradox. Darkseid fell backwards in time, and ended up on Earth sometime before Seven Soldiers and 52. "Boss Dark Side" was the principal contact for the Sheeda's war plans. He gave them North America in exchange for Aurakles, the first Superhero. Which was all an elaborate scheme to get Mr. Miracle and kill him. Shilo cut the deal with DS after Metron showed him the future of......Final Crisis. But a final crisis, where Shilo and co. lost. While on earth, Darkseid orchestrated a guaranteed victory in the "War in Heaven." We know this because of the temporal sniper rifle that killed Orion. The result of the war sent Darkseid into the past.

Hence, temporal paradox. We also know that the shadow behind Boss Dark Side was the real Darkseid, because FC confirmed it when Darkseid's physical form on this plane died and he spoke to Superman in issue 7.

Shilo's immunity has nothing to do with Motherbox, it's because he's the champion of the new gods and the champion of life.

😂

Galen I seriously think sub-consciously you are talking about yourself. It can't just be a coincidence.

.

Originally posted by Mindset
Honestly, you of all people are trying to say someone is ignorant, seriously? facepalm

I don't base my opinions of vauge narrative that are highly suggestable to hyperbole that are not even affirmed on-panel. In this particular situation, he just willfully ignores text to meet his own conclusion....whatever works for u is true and whatever doesn't must be a lie 😆

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

And Darkseid manifested as what? Boss Darkside and then Dan Turpin? And then Granny Goodness and the rest of them, manifesting in new forms? They aren't actually New Gods anymore?

Scott Free returned to the Source he imparted some gifts of the New Gods onto his apprentice he's a representation of Scott Free who was the god of escapes.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Answer this question, what broke down time and space, regardless of whether you think Mr Miracle is knowledgeable or not, "What broke down time and space?"

The fourth world was destroyed so that's bound to happen, as a fifth world is inevitably going to have to take its place.

This doesn't address the issue of DS dragging the multiverse, something the same Miracle mentioned in the same scan you brought up.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
you obviously understood NOTHING about Seven soldiers and FC. So sit down son, because I'm going to explain it to you very slowly.

Shilo's immunity has nothing to do with Motherbox, it's because he's the champion of the new gods and the champion of life.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
let me ask you something. No sarcasm intended, and you can flame all you damn want. How did Wonderwoman prevent people from hurting each other with her Lasso of Truth? What did bindng Darkseid do? "Did it, or did it not, cancel out the subjugation of will of the ALE or not?"

ANSWER YES OR NO.

Also, to everybody else arguing with me, "WHEN DID DARKSEID LEARN THE FULL ALE IN?" At the end of Seven Soldiers, right? Which is pretty much the lead-up to the war of the New Gods and Final Crisis, right? Answer me this question, "Darkseid's gaining of the ALE has NOTHING to do with the cosmic war of the New Gods?"

ANSWER YES OR NO.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're kidding me, right? You think that the new incarnation of Mr Miracle the New God, simply by being manifested as the identity of Shilo Norman, makes him not a New God, and therefore he can't know anything about the cosmic war of the New Gods?

And Darkseid manifested as what? Boss Darkside and then Dan Turpin? And then Granny Goodness and the rest of them, manifesting in new forms? They aren't actually New Gods anymore?

Answer this question, what broke down time and space, regardless of whether you think Mr Miracle is knowledgeable or not, "What broke down time and space?"

ANSWER IN A SINGLE SENTENCE.

HINT:

Darkseid manifesting in Dan Turpin's body for the first time.
I bet that everyone will tell you the same.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you are actualyl ebing genuine, I appreciate your attempt at explaining things. But honestly, you didn't answer my questions:
Answer the questions yes or no. I wont' resort to straw-man argumentation, I'm not going to falsely mischaracterize what you say, so that I can make my own line of attack easier. Say what you believe. Answer the questions. Yes. Or. No.

First Question. I honestly don't know exactly. The panel doesn't say anything about the ALE JUST THAT IT CHAINED DS's BODY AND PREVENTED PEOPLE FROM GETTING HURT. It doesn't say that it dispelled the ALE but even if it did, so what? Then WW dispelled mind control. Barry Allen did the same to his wife. It just proves that the ALE does what Morrison says it does (which is kinda logical since he writes the comics)

Second Question. He already knew it at the beginning of the SS. And the WAR WAS OVER BEFORE THE SS EVEN BEGAN (Mister Miracle first issue-you actually can see the battle). And the ALE probably helped in the war. AFTER ALL IT ENSLAVES FREE WILL. It doesn't say anything else. Again you just prove Morrison's claims.

And again with name calling.
If someone really paid attention to you he might have but it would spoil the fun I think 😆

Originally posted by Allankles
Scott Free returned to the Source he imparted some gifts of the New Gods onto his apprentice he's a representation of Scott Free who was the god of escapes.

Originally posted by Allankles
The fourth world was destroyed so that's bound to happen, as a fifth world is inevitably going to have to take its place.

This doesn't address the issue of DS dragging the multiverse, something the same Miracle mentioned in the same scan you brought up.

Nobody read the second part of the top post? 😑

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I already said DS' dying = his falling through the Multiverse. His falling through the Multiverse, AFTER time and space has broken, pulls the Multiverse into the singularity. But you consider this as Darkseid's overt manifestation of his true power. But it's just as plausible a mischaracterization, that Galactus' death, which caused Abraxas to manifest and consume the Marvel Multiverse, is proof that Galactus overtly manifested his true power for the first time, a power enough to destroy the Marvel Multiverse.

But a lot has been said in FC about this. It's mentioned that DS crumpled time turning months into days and weeks during FC. It's also said that all space and time covered by this singularity became Darkseid; essentially he was creating a hell with his presence.

So while I see your point, there's nothing inversely that states time was already crumpled before DS crumpled it or space was already ruined before DS folded it. I go by what's written and in FC it says DS was the one turning all space and time into himself.

Originally posted by comicfan11
First Question. I honestly don't know exactly. The panel doesn't say anything about the ALE JUST THAT IT CHAINED DS's BODY AND PREVENTED PEOPLE FROM GETTING HURT. It doesn't say that it dispelled the ALE but even if it did, so what? Then WW dispelled mind control. Barry Allen did the same to his wife. It just proves that the ALE does what Morrison says it does (which is kinda logical since he writes the comics)

That's a contradiction in your views. Because if the Miracle Machine works by calculating the Life Equation, then the Miracle Machine's purpose was moot as soon as Wonderwoman restored free will. Yet, its purpose obviously was not moot, since Superman uses it in the climax.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Second Question. He already knew it at the beginning of the SS. And the WAR WAS OVER BEFORE THE SS EVEN BEGAN (Mister Miracle first issue-you actually can see the battle). And the ALE probably helped in the war. AFTER ALL IT ENSLAVES FREE WILL. It doesn't say anything else. Again you just prove Morrison's claims.

And again with name calling.
If someone really paid attention to you he might have but it would spoil the fun I think 😆

Again, misharacterizing my argument. But you admit that the ALE helped in the war. But you immediately step back and say, it only enslaves free will. So let me ask you this, "Did Darkseid wage his cosmic war against the New Gods before or after claiming the ALE?" Or more appropriately, "Was Darkseid able to wage his cosmic war against the New Gods before he obtained the ALE?"

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ok. Since you seem to be sincere. If Wonderwoman is dispelling mind control, then the ALE's complete effects are now undone. Now follow me, the Miracle Machine works by calculating the Life Equation, right? In your opinion, the Life Equation is only good for restoring free will. So then, what point is it for the Miracle Machine to calculate the Life Equation if Wonderwoman already restored free will?

That's a contradiction in your views. Because if the Miracle Machine works by calculating the Life Equation, then the Miracle Machine's purpose was moot as soon as Wonderwoman restored free will. Yet, its purpose obviously was not moot, since Superman uses it in the climax.
What name-calling are you referring to? Are you really resorting to attacking the merits of my statements by suggesting that I am flaming? Do you know what straw-man argumentation is? It's a logical fallacy of debating whereupon the critic purposely casts the other's argument differently or simplifies it to make it easier to rebut. Don't resort to these tactics. This is a decent debate.

Again, misharacterizing my argument. But you admit that the ALE helped in the war. But you immediately step back and say, it only enslaves free will. So let me ask you this, "Did Darkseid wage his cosmic war against the New Gods before or after claiming the ALE?" Or more appropriately, "Was Darkseid able to wage his cosmic war against the New Gods before he obtained the ALE?"

I don't get it, are you arguing what Morrison thinks of his own story?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ok. Since you seem to be sincere. If Wonderwoman is dispelling mind control, then the ALE's complete effects are now undone. Now follow me, the Miracle Machine works by calculating the Life Equation, right? In your opinion, the Life Equation is only good for restoring free will. So then, what point is it for the Miracle Machine to calculate the Life Equation if Wonderwoman already restored free will?

That's a contradiction in your views. Because if the Miracle Machine works by calculating the Life Equation, then the Miracle Machine's purpose was moot as soon as Wonderwoman restored free will. Yet, its purpose obviously was not moot, since Superman uses it in the climax.
What name-calling are you referring to? Are you really resorting to attacking the merits of my statements by suggesting that I am flaming? Do you know what straw-man argumentation is? It's a logical fallacy of debating whereupon the critic purposely casts the other's argument differently or simplifies it to make it easier to rebut. Don't resort to these tactics. This is a decent debate.

Again, misharacterizing my argument. But you admit that the ALE helped in the war. But you immediately step back and say, it only enslaves free will. So let me ask you this, "Did Darkseid wage his cosmic war against the New Gods before or after claiming the ALE?" Or more appropriately, "Was Darkseid able to wage his cosmic war against the New Gods before he obtained the ALE?"

First point.
Even if WW dispelled the ALE (which is not stated in any way) then she had to LASSO 3 BILLIONS OF PEOPLE.
So yeah the LE is needed unless she had allot of free time in her hands.

Second point
Something that you probably don't know and I don't mean to be insulting or anything.
The War between New Genesis and Apokolips is a CONSTANT CIRCLE. Sometimes DS wins sometimes Izaya. The means are irrelevant. DS might have the ALE during the war. That just proves he was able to use the ALE in order to enslave the New Gods as stated by Morrison himself.

I don't know how to say it in a different way but THE ALE ENSLAVES FREE WILL.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
No multiverse collapsing.
No wish fullfillement.
No fireworks.
No time collapsing.
Nada.
According to the WRITER of the story ALE=Extremely powerfull mind control.

And I thought straw man was something insulting so excuse me if I in turn insulted you.

Originally posted by Allankles
But a lot has been said in FC about this. It's mentioned that DS crumpled time turning months into days and weeks during FC. It's also said that all space and time covered by this singularity became Darkseid; essentially he was creating a hell with his presence.

So while I see your point, there's nothing inversely that states time was already crumpled before DS crumpled it or space was already ruined before DS folded it. I go by what's written and in FC it says DS was the one turning all space and time into himself.

So you characterize that as all Darkseid's plan (and really, how is getting nearly killed by Orion his plan?), and his own overt conscious application of his power? That's like suggesting that Galactus, when he was "killed" by the Fantastic Four, finally applied his true power, since his death caused Abraxas to manifest and destroy the Marvel Multiverse. It's the same rationale between both scenarios, and I think it's flawed both times.

Some people say Galactus is a Multiversal entity because his death actually destroys the Marvel Multiverse, but you know what? That never held much water with me, because it really isn't his overt application of power, it's a consequence of what happens in the story. Just like Darkseid's near-death by Orion wasn't actually a conscious decision. Like Batman said, he was merely crawling into the sewer to die when he manifested on Earth in Turpin's body. And because time and space was already broken, his death pulled the Multiverse in around him into the singularity. Do you understand my criticism of your views now?

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I don't get it, are you arguing what Morrison thinks of his own story?

That's what I'm trying to prove all along.
That the ALE does what Morrison says it does...

IT's MADNESS!!!

Originally posted by comicfan11
That's what I'm trying to prove all along.
That the ALE does what Morrison says it does...

IT's MADNESS!!!

Well I just want to know what he is trying to imply by all of these assertions, if u as me DS accomplished pretty all of these very ubber feats on the merit of his own power....don't even know why the ALE is being brought up so much but meh.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
EXCEPT that Mr Miracle says that the war itself "broke time and space." I am also going by what is written. DS was dragging the Multiverse with him with his death. But like I said before, he didn't want to get nearly destroyed by Orion, his near-death at Orion's hands is what caused him to start dying. And his dying is what is pulling an already broken Multiverse down into a singularity.

So you characterize that as all Darkseid's plan (and really, how is getting nearly killed by Orion his plan?), and his own overt conscious application of his power? That's like suggesting that Galactus, when he was "killed" by the Fantastic Four, finally applied his true power, since his death caused Abraxas to manifest and destroy the Marvel Multiverse. It's the same rationale between both scenarios, and I think it's flawed both times.

Some people say Galactus is a Multiversal entity because his death actually destroys the Marvel Multiverse, but you know what? That never held much water with me, because it really isn't his overt application of power, it's a consequence of what happens in the story. Just like Darkseid's near-death by Orion wasn't actually a conscious decision. Like Batman said, he was merely crawling into the sewer to die when he manifested on Earth in Turpin's body. And because time and space was already broken, his death pulled the Multiverse in around him into the singularity. Do you understand my criticism of your views now?

I understand what you are trying to say and the whole point of my argument is that I find this opinion you have to be wrong (or else this wouldn't be an argument in the first place)

Key word in you whole statement is what MM SAYS.
MM was not present or a witness to the WAR. All he has is outside knowledge of the actual facts.

I'll try to make a timeline of the effect of SS and FC to finally put this thread to an end. NOTHING HAPPENS refers to the multiverse.

1)DS learns the ALE-NOTHING HAPPENS. (SS or even before-In issue 2 of Mister Miracle he already has possession of it)

2)War in Heaven-DS wins but falls-NOTHING HAPPENS. (SS)

3)DS is reborn as Boss DS with knowledge of the ALE-NOTHING HAPPENS (just enslavement of some people through the ALE - MM 2 - FC 1)

4)DS is reborn through Turpin-SOMETHING HAPPENS-the multiverse starts collapsing.

5)Spectre starts SPREADING THE ALE ENSLAVING EVEN MORE TO DS's will (Revelations 4-clearly after FC 3-4 as shown on panel)

In spite of what Mister Miracle WHO IS NOT A NEW GOD (not even a reincarnated one) SAYS this is what HAPPENS in the comics.

ACTUAL FACTS>>>ANY FORM OF CLAIMS

If Darkseid's fall was caused the multiverse to collapse this would happen at the start of the MM miniseries where he was already FALLEN ON EARTH.
Instead this happened WHEN HE FINALLY MANIFESTED,

Originally posted by comicfan11
First point.
Even if WW dispelled the ALE (which is not stated in any way) then she had to LASSO 3 BILLIONS OF PEOPLE.
So yeah the LE is needed unless she had allot of free time in her hands.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Second point
Something that you probably don't know and I don't mean to be insulting or anything.
The War between New Genesis and Apokolips is a CONSTANT CIRCLE. Sometimes DS wins sometimes Izaya. The means are irrelevant. DS might have the ALE during the war. That just proves he was able to use the ALE in order to enslave the New Gods as stated by Morrison himself.

I don't know how to say it in a different way but THE ALE ENSLAVES FREE WILL.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
No multiverse collapsing.
No wish fullfillement.
No fireworks.
No time collapsing.
Nada.
According to the WRITER of the story ALE=Extremely powerfull mind control.

And I thought straw man was something insulting so excuse me if I in turn insulted you.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Do you understand my criticism of your views now?

The war has always been the means for DS to acquire ultimate power. His war with New Genesis has always been about the fate of the universe. So getting hurt by Orion may not have been part of his plan but it never ended his plans.

DS was the victor of this war in heaven and the fourth world was destroyed as a result but your suggesting that the multiverse was already broken and that this somehow proves DS wasn't doing anything with his own power or as part of his own conscious effort.

But FC makes it clear that he was consciously making this singularity, that his almost-death was making him fall through reality. DS makes it clear in FC 5 that he is not going to accept falling through reality and so he fashions a singularity to drag all the multiverse with him.

Barry Allen says he is dragging the multiverse with him. For what purpose? to make himself God, if all life becomes Darkseid he becomes god, he becomes all the multiverse and his fall is arrested permanently.

Because everyone is ignoring it.....

"Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Because SS proves that FC was started by a temporal paradox. Darkseid fell backwards in time, and ended up on Earth sometime before Seven Soldiers and 52. "Boss Dark Side" was the principal contact for the Sheeda's war plans. He gave them North America in exchange for Aurakles, the first Superhero. Which was all an elaborate scheme to get Mr. Miracle and kill him. Shilo cut the deal with DS after Metron showed him the future of......Final Crisis. But a final crisis, where Shilo and co. lost. While on earth, Darkseid orchestrated a guaranteed victory in the "War in Heaven." We know this because of the temporal sniper rifle that killed Orion. The result of the war sent Darkseid into the past.

Hence, temporal paradox. We also know that the shadow behind Boss Dark Side was the real Darkseid, because FC confirmed it when Darkseid's physical form on this plane died and he spoke to Superman in issue 7. "