Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ 🤨I think I understand what you're trying to say. But that just came out of left field. Was the Multiverse being damaged? Was it being drawn into the singularity? Ugh... fatigue... This is all eerily reminiscent of my threads regarding Here Comes Tomorrow, also by Grant Morrison. Next time I get into an argument over one of his stories, I'm just gonna grab a mike and scream "GRRRAAAAANNNNNTTTT!!!!!11" Shatner-style.
good
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Still doesn't quite answer the question. Because why bother making sure you can enslave everyone if their gonna all die and be reduced to a singularity that is Darkseid? So let me refocus, "Why bother enslaving their minds if everything and everyone is going to be crushed into the singularity by DS' own power anyway?" It's like... Darkseid wants to rule all minds with the ALE, right before he crushes all existence with his singularity. What's the point of controlling people's minds with a "spell" so-to-speak, if you're gonna destroy them all with your "god power." Why didn't Darkseid say, "Fear Anti-Life! I tell you now... I- ah fug it, no point, I'ma crush you all with my godly-powers anyway."Do you understand why I have a hard time grasping your views? You completely strip all the peril of the ALE, that was exhaustively focused on throughout the seven issues of Final Crisis. That in itself, is a major contradiction of the plot, much less actual events and statements within the plot. So? Why bother enslaving their minds?
Hello again.
Why?
Because he want's to control them.
If he is going to do whatever he wants to do in his Hell he wants complete control.
And let's be honest. He wants to control them because GRANT MORRISON SAYS SO.
And he is the writer of the story.
And his ALE ONLY DOES MIND CONTROL.
AND IN HIS COMICS DARKSEID'S REBIRTH DRAGS THE MULTIVERSE CLEARLY AFTER THE WAR AND HIS FALL.
THE SPECTRE COMES UNDER CAIN's COMMAND CLEARLY AFTER DARKSEID STARTS DOING HIS THING.
ALL OF THE ABOVE HAPPEN ON PANEL.
THERE's NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
NO MATTER HOW MUCH SOMEONE LIKE's IT TO BE THE OTHER WAY IT'S NOT.
For example the same moment Darkseid give's the thumb down, it start's raining blood and Green Lantern's flame starts waning.
After that in issue 5 when he is finally DS the multiverse is wrecked as evidenced by the Green Lanterns who are unable to reach Earth.
AGAIN ON PANEL.
As for the ALE.
It's your word against Morrison.
Morrison states the ALE is mind control.
You try to convince yourself it's not.It's something more.
There are numerous panel in the comics that prove ALE=mind control.
There isn't but a single panel that proves the ALE to be something else.
All in all the ALE is a weapon. DS could use it to win his war in Heaven. Using mind control against his fellow New Gods.
But that's it.
It's not like he used the ALE and they melted or exploded.
Why?
According to the ONLY AUTHORITY FOR THIS STORY, Grant Morrison, ALE=Mind Control.
The Miracle Machine was used to bottle the whole universe and it seems the LE was used to repair the damage that the ALE was doing to everyone under Darkseids control as Darkseid was destroying there free will. Wonder Woman stated while helping Superman w/Miracle Machine "What USED to be TIME is slowing to a STOP. What used to be meaningful and significant is Losing importance.." The Lasso seems to be a part of the Life Equation, that would be the only way they would again have free will.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, the summary is....Space and Time was broken because of the war not because of ds own power....
DS didn't create the sigularity from his own power but because he was actually falling
The ALE is what really allowed him to do most everything in FC
Got It
Nope under DS own power, ALE had nothing to with it.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yes the comic where things could be interrupted that way did come from Morrison correct?
The fourth world was destroyed by the war, this doesn't have anything to do with DS dragging the multiverse. Mister Miracle himself states that DS was dragging the universe down with him.
The Guardians say he is creating a singularity to do this and we see the effects of this singularity as DS brings the worlds of the Orrery around New Earth by FC 6 AND 7.
Originally posted by comicfan11You're contradicting yourself. If space-time isn't being crushed into a singularity and people will still be alive, then why does everything disappear and get destroyed? Magnetic forces ripping things apart, two universes shearing each other, etc.? Conclusion, everything is getting sucked into a black hole, a singularity. People aren't going to live in that. Therefore, slavery over people's minds is pointless. If you're arguing that things weren't being sucked into a black hole/singularity, then you're ignoring pretty much the art, the script and everybody else around here.
Hello again.
Why?
Because he want's to control them.
If he is going to do whatever he wants to do in his Hell he wants complete control.
Originally posted by comicfan11Straw-man again. Don't mischaracterize my argument. You're not that clever and people aren't that gullible. Who cares when Spectre speaks the ALE. Bottom-line is, Cain ordered him to speak the ALE and un-make creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's name. Cain using the Spectre's power + ALE to help further the destruction/warping of Earth is not dispositive of Darkseid's use of the ALE to wage his cosmic war and wrecking time and space.
And let's be honest. He wants to control them because GRANT MORRISON SAYS SO.
And he is the writer of the story.
And his ALE ONLY DOES MIND CONTROL.
AND IN HIS COMICS DARKSEID'S REBIRTH DRAGS THE MULTIVERSE CLEARLY AFTER THE WAR AND HIS FALL.
THE SPECTRE COMES UNDER CAIN's COMMAND CLEARLY AFTER DARKSEID STARTS DOING HIS THING.
Originally posted by comicfan11You post absolutely no proof. Nothing. I have quotes from Mr Miracle and Motherboxx stating that the cosmic war broke time and space. I have quotes from Cain and Spectre talking about un-making creation and rebuilding the word. Show me a single panel that states Anti-Life can only enslave people. Show me a single line from Final Crisis.
ALL OF THE ABOVE HAPPEN ON PANEL.
THERE's NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.NO MATTER HOW MUCH SOMEONE LIKE's IT TO BE THE OTHER WAY IT'S NOT.
Originally posted by comicfan11The events you describe are not dispositive of time and space being broken BEFORE Final Crisis starts. You're not stating anything I don't already know. You post those facts as if they prove me wrong. They don't. At all. In fact, Mr Miracle states that the cosmic war broke time and space. And as we all know, the cosmic war between the New Gods, Orion's fuinal battle with Darkseid all occur before Final Crisis.
For example the same moment Darkseid give's the thumb down, it start's raining blood and Green Lantern's flame starts waning.
After that in issue 5 when he is finally DS the multiverse is wrecked as evidenced by the Green Lanterns who are unable to reach Earth.AGAIN ON PANEL.
I know they're ON PANEL. They don't change anything and don't undermine my position at all: "Superman has an "S" on his costume. ON PANEL. I must be right." That's essentially what you're doing if you can look past the sarcasm.
Originally posted by comicfan11It's not my word against Morrison's. Because Tricksterpriest posted it. And it proves me right. You think ALE is only mind control, you think Darkseid "could" have used it in the cosmic war. Morrison's own words prove you wrong:
As for the ALE.
It's your word against Morrison.Morrison states the ALE is mind control.
You try to convince yourself it's not.It's something more.There are numerous panel in the comics that prove ALE=mind control.
There isn't but a single panel that proves the ALE to be something else.All in all the ALE is a weapon. DS could use it to win his war in Heaven. Using mind control against his fellow New Gods.
But that's it.
It's not like he used the ALE and they melted or exploded.
Why?
According to the ONLY AUTHORITY FOR THIS STORY, Grant Morrison, ALE=Mind Control.
"As with most of the weapons and artifacts from the higher vibratory world of the New Gods, we see only facets of the barely imaginable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation." What does this plainly mean? That it's scope is wider than anything that can be encapsulated in simple neat human terms. Mind control is a neat simple human term. Strike one.
"The Anti-Life Equation took humanoid form, declaring itself to be one half of a composite yin/yang being with "the Source" itself as a counterpart." Again, plain meaning = Anti-Life Equation is more than just a simple mind-control spell. Despite this limited definition being proven wrong since the Source contains all, the fact that the Anti-Life Equation can manifest itself in different forms already proves that your narrow interpretation of it as a mere mind-control spell is wrong. Ultimate concept. Morrison's own words. Strike two.
"Darkseid's recent mastery of the Anti-Life Equation precipitated a disastrous war in heaven which resulted in the "death" of the New Gids and Darkseid's subsequent catastrophic fall into the material world." You said Darkseid "could" have used it. No, that's not up to your interpretation. He did use it. In fact, his possession of the ALE literally abruptly caused (that's what precipitate means, SAT word) the disastrous war in heaven, i.e. cosmic war. So without the ALE, no cosmic war. And as stated in an account of an actual survivor of the war, Motherboxx, that war broke time and space. Strike three.
Morrison's own words support my views. Not yours. Of course the ALE can be used to control minds. The ALE being used to enslave minds does not threaten my views on it at all. That is one aspect of the ALE. But it is so much more than that. Final Crisis Darkseid is incredibly powerful. Even when dying, he is capable of dragging the Multiverse down with him. But considering you have not a single line or a single scan that proves Darkseid broke time and space with his own personal power, wholly separate and apart from the ALE AND you have Morrison himself, unequivocally stating that everything Darkseid did was precipitated by his mastery of the ALE, I don't see how you can continue debating this.
You have to block out Mr Miracle and Motherboxx's on-panel account of what occurs. You have to block out Cain and Spectre's on-panel words. You have to block out all of prior DC history regarding the scope of the ALE (althoguh I don't blame you this). You have to block out the idea of the Miracle Machine and it calculating the Life Equation to fix everything and grant a happy ending. But practice what you preach. Do not ignore what Morrison himself states. When you take Morrison's words together with everything I just listed, whose view fulfills Ockham's Razor test better? The simplest view with the least need for contradictions and excuses is usually the correct view.
Originally posted by Allankles
The fourth world was destroyed by the war, this doesn't have anything to do with DS dragging the multiverse. Mister Miracle himself states that DS was dragging the universe down with him.The Guardians say he is creating a singularity to do this and we see the effects of this singularity as DS brings the worlds of the Orrery around New Earth by FC 6 AND 7.
Seems more like the Fourth World being destroyed in the "war in heaven" had something to do with space and time crumbling. Think about it, the entire Fourth World is destroyed there's no side effect to the rest of the DCU? It obviously had; Mr Miracle points this out as shown by scans by OneDumbG0.
Originally posted by kevdudeI would agree with that underlined part but for one thing. You see Wondergirl specifically references bottling the universe away for its protection, as the heroes actually mention the Miracle Machine:
The Miracle Machine was used to bottle the whole universe and it seems the LE was used to repair the damage that the ALE was doing to everyone under Darkseids control as Darkseid was destroying there free will. Wonder Woman stated while helping Superman w/Miracle Machine "What USED to be TIME is slowing to a STOP. What used to be meaningful and significant is Losing importance.." The Lasso seems to be a part of the Life Equation, that would be the only way they would again have free will.
And Supergirl and Superman may have, in fact, intended to use the Miracle Machine to do just that. However, it is clear that Superman makes a wish, (after all, that's how the Miracle Machine receives its orders). And Nix Uotan confirms that Superman wished for a happy ending. A bit larger in scope than bottling the universe away for protection. And if I'm not mistaken, Earth-0 still fell into the abyss and the survivors had to be transported to another Earth anyway, so bottling the universe didn't seem to be an option anymore.
The rest of your assertions, while plausible, are not probable in my view. If I understand correctly, you think that one of the things that the Miracle Machine does, is calculate the Life Equation, but only in a limited fashion to counter mind-control, since that is apparently what you think the ALE is only capable of. However, the heroes already had the tatoo that freed you from enslavement. And Wonderwoman clearly counters the effect of enslavement effect, since she stops everyone from being hurt:
While I've characterized her actions before as completely freeing everyone from enslavement, it's possible that she merely bound a near-dead Darkseid and commanded him to stop making people tear each other apart. Nevertheless, understanding that we have those tatoos (and apparently a giant one drawn by Ray on an entire hemisphere) and Wonderwoman countering enslavement... why again would there be a need for a Life Equation so limited in scope? If all a Life Equation could do is undo mind control, a need that was already vitiated by two other sources of freedom, then that clearly is contradictory. Not completely dispositive. But very contradictory. However, if you take Morrison's words at face value about Anti-Life Equation being this unimaginable thing in scope, which then sets up the Life Equation as being the same, then the Life Equation being tied to the indisputable power and scope of the Miracle Machine makes perfect sense. And so do a lot of other things. My two cents.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Seems more like the Fourth World being destroyed in the "war in heaven" had something to do with space and time crumbling. Think about it, the entire Fourth World is destroyed there's no side effect to the rest of the DCU? It obviously had; Mr Miracle points this out as shown by scans by OneDumbG0.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKingIt's been asserted that because Mr Miracle is a mere human (which is simplistic and misleading IMHO) and he didn't actually witness the cosmic war, his statements are unreliable and/or purely second-hand accounts at best. But bottom-line is, Motherboxxx was a survivor. And Motherboxxx does know these kind of things. For instance, it also knew and told Mr Miracle that Sonny Sumo was from a "lateral universe." So for me, trying to paint Mr Miracle's clear and unambiguous report of Motherboxxx's eyewitness account is reallllly stretching it.
Seems more like the Fourth World being destroyed in the "war in heaven" had something to do with space and time crumbling. Think about it, the entire Fourth World is destroyed there's no side effect to the rest of the DCU? It obviously had; Mr Miracle points this out as shown by scans by OneDumbG0.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Seems more like the Fourth World being destroyed in the "war in heaven" had something to do with space and time crumbling. Think about it, the entire Fourth World is destroyed there's no side effect to the rest of the DCU? It obviously had; Mr Miracle points this out as shown by scans by OneDumbG0.
I get tired of repeating this. Space and time being broken by the destruction of the fourth world had nothing to do with DS draggging the multiverse.
The two are mutually exclusive since it is stated that DS had generated a personal singularity and that the event horizon of this singularity was folding space and time.
DS had already won the war before this began. When Miracle mentioned space and time being broken he also mentioned that DS was dragging the universe.
This is what Miracle says, "the war broke time and space" (Which could mean the concepts of time and space were affected doesn't have anything to do with dragging a multiverse)
continues: "A fallen Devil-god is dragging us down with him into a deep, dark hole in time, with no light, no hope and no escape"
Which corresponds with what DS says in the same issue, that he will take everyone into a hell with no escape and then he will murder their souls.
