Darkseid vs Depowered Tyrant

Started by The Great Galen25 pages
The Great Galen Restricted

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Because everyone is ignoring it.....

"Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Because SS proves that FC was started by a temporal paradox. Darkseid fell backwards in time, and ended up on Earth sometime before Seven Soldiers and 52. "Boss Dark Side" was the principal contact for the Sheeda's war plans. He gave them North America in exchange for Aurakles, the first Superhero. Which was all an elaborate scheme to get Mr. Miracle and kill him. Shilo cut the deal with DS after Metron showed him the future of......Final Crisis. But a final crisis, where Shilo and co. lost. While on earth, Darkseid orchestrated a guaranteed victory in the "War in Heaven." We know this because of the temporal sniper rifle that killed Orion. The result of the war sent Darkseid into the past.

Hence, temporal paradox. We also know that the shadow behind Boss Dark Side was the real Darkseid, because FC confirmed it when Darkseid's physical form on this plane died and he spoke to Superman in issue 7. "

But what about the ALE lol, srry just felt like this very point u made has been ignored for quite sometime. Anyhow agaisnt a DP tyrant, I'm thinking FC DS could just....well I dunno think out of being maybe?

Allankles Kwisatz Haderach

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Because everyone is ignoring it.....

"Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Because SS proves that FC was started by a temporal paradox. Darkseid fell backwards in time, and ended up on Earth sometime before Seven Soldiers and 52. "Boss Dark Side" was the principal contact for the Sheeda's war plans. He gave them North America in exchange for Aurakles, the first Superhero. Which was all an elaborate scheme to get Mr. Miracle and kill him. Shilo cut the deal with DS after Metron showed him the future of......Final Crisis. But a final crisis, where Shilo and co. lost. While on earth, Darkseid orchestrated a guaranteed victory in the "War in Heaven." We know this because of the temporal sniper rifle that killed Orion. The result of the war sent Darkseid into the past.

Hence, temporal paradox. We also know that the shadow behind Boss Dark Side was the real Darkseid, because FC confirmed it when Darkseid's physical form on this plane died and he spoke to Superman in issue 7. "

It's obvious why it's being ignored. Through FC we know DS hadn't fully manifested in SS. Boss Dark side was just one of DS avatars during SS.

He kills Orion in the future with a gun that travels backwards through time. When the war ends his full manifestation descends onto New Earth, there his first host wastes away and he needs a new host.

OneDumbG0 Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by comicfan11
I understand what you are trying to say and the whole point of my argument is that I find this opinion you have to be wrong (or else this wouldn't be an argument in the first place)

Key word in you whole statement is what MM SAYS.
MM was not present or a witness to the WAR. All he has is outside knowledge of the actual facts.

I'll try to make a timeline of the effect of SS and FC to finally put this thread to an end. NOTHING HAPPENS refers to the multiverse.

1)DS learns the ALE-NOTHING HAPPENS. (SS or even before-In issue 2 of Mister Miracle he already has possession of it)

2)War in Heaven-DS wins but falls-NOTHING HAPPENS. (SS)

3)DS is reborn as Boss DS with knowledge of the ALE-NOTHING HAPPENS (just enslavement of some people through the ALE - MM 2 - FC 1)

4)DS is reborn through Turpin-SOMETHING HAPPENS-the multiverse starts collapsing.

5)Spectre starts SPREADING THE ALE ENSLAVING EVEN MORE TO DS's will (Revelations 4-clearly after FC 3-4 as shown on panel)

In spite of what Mister Miracle WHO IS NOT A NEW GOD (not even a reincarnated one) SAYS this is what HAPPENS in the comics.

ACTUAL FACTS>>>ANY FORM OF CLAIMS

If Darkseid's fall was caused the multiverse to collapse this would happen at the start of the MM miniseries where he was already FALLEN ON EARTH.
Instead this happened WHEN HE FINALLY MANIFESTED,

Now, I am only scrutinizing your positions, so follow me when I address your points:

1) I never said at the point Darkseid learns the ALE, the Multiverse collpases. Straw-man. I said that his use of it, which allows him to wage his final battle, during the cosmic war was what broke down time and space.

2) The war resulted in Orion nearly killing Darkseid. And at that point, the war is over. But by then, the damage to time and space had already been done, as attested to by Mr Miracle, or if you dont trust Shilo Norman, by the Motherboxx that actually survived and witnessed that war.

3) When he manifests himself in Boss Darkside's body, that is him already falling as a result of his battle with Orion. By then, tiem and space had already been broken.

4) His incarnation in Turpin's body is Darkseid's continued falling through the Multiverse. Falling, as used by Grant Morrison, is not a 3d term. Like we all recognize, 3d terms can't be used to describe what happened on a higher plane of existence between gods. His manifestations as Boss Darkside and Dan Turpin in Final Crisis are his falling through the Multiverse. But his falling through started AFTER the war. And he didn't wage that war without the ALE.

5) Cain enslaves Spectre, makes him speak the ALE, and orders him to "Unmake creation" and "rebuild the world in Darkseid's name." I know he also subjugates more free will across the planet, but how do you equate "unmaking creation" and "rebuilding the world" as mere subjugation of free will?

In order to criticize my arguments, you basically have to assert that Mr Miracle (and by extension his Motherboxx), don't know what the f they are talking about. Despite the Motherboxx actualyl being a witness from the actual war. Also, you have to ignore the history of DC comics that suggest how powerful the ALE truly is. You also have to equate these words: "Unmake creation" and and "rebuild the world in Darkseid's name" as "enslave humankind." You also have to equate "Let that which was un-made be reformed." as "Unenslave humankind." You don't see any problems with this at all? Really?

OneDumbG0 Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by Allankles
The war has always been the means for DS to acquire ultimate power. His war with New Genesis has always been about the fate of the universe. So getting hurt by Orion may not have been part of his plan but it never ended his plans.

DS was the victor of this war in heaven and the fourth world was destroyed as a result but your suggesting that the multiverse was already broken and that this somehow proves DS wasn't doing anything with his own power or as part of his own conscious effort.

I didn't just suggest that the DC Multiverse was already broken down before DS started pulling on it... Mr Miracle, as attested to by a firsthand witness the Motherboxx, stated EXACTLY that:

How can you ignore what they state, on-panel? I mean, seriously? "The war broke time and space." What else could that possibly mean?

Originally posted by Allankles
But FC makes it clear that he was consciously making this singularity, that his almost-death was making him fall through reality. DS makes it clear in FC 5 that he is not going to accept falling through reality and so he fashions a singularity to drag all the multiverse with him.

Barry Allen says he is dragging the multiverse with him. For what purpose? to make himself God, if all life becomes Darkseid he becomes god, he becomes all the multiverse and his fall is arrested permanently.

Darkseid's falling = Darkseid dying. Darkseid dying was not his original plan. Anybody could see that he never wanted to get nearly killed by Orion. As Batman clearly states, and Darkseid NEVER refutes, he's merely someone crawling into a sewer to die. OBVIOUSLY, he wants to drag down the Multiverse with his death. But you can't ascribe pulling the entire Multiverse down as his own power alone when the Multiverse was already irreparably damaged by the original cosmic war of the New Gods. You're giving him personal credit for something that a whole cosmic war was originally responsible for. A cosmic war that he couldn't even wage until he gained the ALE, and for something that is tied to his death, which is something he didn't want in the first place. The ALE has NOTHING to do with the collapse of the Multiverse? Really?

Galactus didn't want to die. But the release of Abraxas was a direct consequence of his death, and Abraxas was detroying the Multiverse. If Galactus didn't want to die, but his death nonetheless would have destroyed the Multiverse, how can you say that Galactus has the power to destroy the Multiverse single-handedly? Here, with Darkseid, the destruction of the DC Multiverse started with the cosmic war. And he couldn't even start the cosmic war without the ALE. AND he didn't even want to die against Orion. SO how can you say that Darkseid has the power alone to destroy the DC Multiverse?

TricksterPriest Renegade Timelord

The proof of the temporal paradox is references to Darkseid being on earth during 52.

Issue 25, the Intergang boss states, "A dark angel made of living granite placed its stinking, smoking hand against his chest and held it there as it whispered to him the sickening secrets of the Dark Side. Held it there until the heart within was blackened and shriveled beyond repair. That day Bruno became an apostle of evil, an evangelist of crime."

Issue 46, Doctor Cale of mad scientist island..."It's not about the global crime state. Beyond Mannheim, beyond Chung Tzu, there are others. And they already walk among us." "...The forces of evil are gathering, don't you understand? The Final Crisis is coming. Servants of death and despair. Apostles of Anti-Life. Their goal is eternal slavery and destruction of the human free will."

Now, he may not be fully manifested until the actual fall occurs, but he was on Earth during 52, sent backwards in time. The entire thing was a massive Xanatos Gambit, possibly a roulette.

comicfan11 Ocean's Heaviest Hitter

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Now, I am only scrutinizing your positions, so follow me when I address your points:

1) I never said at the point Darkseid learns the ALE, the Multiverse collpases. Straw-man. I said that his use of it, which allows him to wage his final battle, during the cosmic war was what broke down time and space.

2) The war resulted in Orion nearly killing Darkseid. And at that point, the war is over. But by then, the damage to time and space had already been done, as attested to by Mr Miracle, or if you dont trust Shilo Norman, by the Motherboxx that actually survived and witnessed that war.

3) When he manifests himself in Boss Darkside's body, that is him already falling as a result of his battle with Orion. By then, tiem and space had already been broken.

4) His incarnation in Turpin's body is Darkseid's continued falling through the Multiverse. Falling, as used by Grant Morrison, is not a 3d term. Like we all recognize, 3d terms can't be used to describe what happened on a higher plane of existence between gods. His manifestations as Boss Darkside and Dan Turpin in Final Crisis are his falling through the Multiverse. But his falling through started AFTER the war. And he didn't wage that war without the ALE.

5) Cain enslaves Spectre, makes him speak the ALE, and orders him to "Unmake creation" and "rebuild the world in Darkseid's name." I know he also subjugates more free will across the planet, but how do you equate "unmaking creation" and "rebuilding the world" as mere subjugation of free will?

In order to criticize my arguments, you basically have to assert that Mr Miracle (and by extension his Motherboxx), don't know what the f they are talking about. Despite the Motherboxx actualyl being a witness from the actual war. Also, you have to ignore the history of DC comics that suggest how powerful the ALE truly is. You also have to equate these words: "Unmake creation" and and "rebuild the world in Darkseid's name" as "enslave humankind." You also have to equate "Let that which was un-made be reformed." as "Unenslave humankind." You don't see any problems with this at all? Really?

The thing is that the multiverse was okay even up to the point of Boss DS dying.
The Monitors say that themselves in FC 1.
And that was after the war and the fall as stated on panel in FC 1 again.
So no until Turpin DS was born the multiverse was OK and that was weeks or months after the war.

As for the power of the ALE.
It doesn't matter what the other writers wrote because Morrison is the writer of FC and he RETCONED all other versions of the ALE to his. And this is the current version and the one used in this story.
Retcons happen all the time and from the time the happen they are considered the absolute canon for the story UNTIL someone retcons them again.
So whatever Starlin or Byrne or whoever thought of the ALE simply doesn't MATTER. DC's entire history on the ALE DOESN'T MATTER.

As for the Spectre I've already proven at least 5 times that the multiverse was being destroyed before even Cain met with him.
Again on panel.

So to sum up DS even wounded from Orion finally manifested and started dragging the multiverse.
He was wounded as Boss Darkside but never dead but only when he took over Turpin the multiverse started collapsing.

All of the above HAPPEN ON PANEL.

What MM says is irrelevant.
What happened ON PANEL matters.

Allankles Kwisatz Haderach

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The proof of the temporal paradox is references to Darkseid being on earth during 52.

Issue 25, the Intergang boss states, "A dark angel made of living granite placed its stinking, smoking hand against his chest and held it there as it whispered to him the sickening secrets of the Dark Side. Held it there until the heart within was blackened and shriveled beyond repair. That day Bruno became an apostle of evil, an evangelist of crime."

Issue 46, Doctor Cale of mad scientist island..."It's not about the global crime state. Beyond Mannheim, beyond Chung Tzu, there are others. And they already walk among us." "...The forces of evil are gathering, don't you understand? The Final Crisis is coming. Servants of death and despair. Apostles of Anti-Life. Their goal is eternal slavery and destruction of the human free will."

Now, he may not be fully manifested until the actual fall occurs, but he was on Earth during 52, sent backwards in time. The entire thing was a massive Xanatos Gambit, possibly a roulette.

But wouldn't that assume the war in heaven is over by 52?

Also Orion was killed right before FC and we're told it was a bullet shot by a gun that fired backwards through time.

So the weapon was shot by DS in the future with the intention of killing Orion at the moment Final Crisis began.

comicfan11 Ocean's Heaviest Hitter

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I didn't just suggest that the DC Multiverse was already broken down before DS started pulling on it... Mr Miracle, as attested to by a firsthand witness the Motherboxx, stated EXACTLY that:

How can you ignore what they state, on-panel? I mean, seriously? "The war broke time and space." What else could that possibly mean?
Darkseid's falling = Darkseid dying. Darkseid dying was not his original plan. Anybody could see that he never wanted to get nearly killed by Orion. As Batman clearly states, and Darkseid NEVER refutes, he's merely someone crawling into a sewer to die. OBVIOUSLY, he wants to drag down the Multiverse with his death. But you can't ascribe pulling the entire Multiverse down as his own power alone when the Multiverse was already irreparably damaged by the original cosmic war of the New Gods. You're giving him personal credit for something that a whole cosmic war was originally responsible for. A cosmic war that he couldn't even wage until he gained the ALE, and for something that is tied to his death, which is something he didn't want in the first place. The ALE has NOTHING to do with the collapse of the Multiverse? Really?

Galactus didn't want to die. But the release of Abraxas was a direct consequence of his death, and Abraxas was detroying the Multiverse. If Galactus didn't want to die, but his death nonetheless would have destroyed the Multiverse, how can you say that Galactus has the power to destroy the Multiverse single-handedly? Here, with Darkseid, the destruction of the DC Multiverse started with the cosmic war. And he couldn't even start the cosmic war without the ALE. AND he didn't even want to die against Orion. SO how can you say that Darkseid has the power alone to destroy the DC Multiverse?

If we go by your logic you are giving full credit to a statement MM makes for an event he was not part of and we don't see on panel and ignore 7 issues of on panel proof that prove you wrong.

DS could be in possesion of the ALE and that helped him win the war.
Again so what. It's means to an end.
Libra also has possession of the ALE but he could never drag the multiverse. Why? because the ALE is just mind control, which he did.

And again the multiverse was FINE after the WAR as stated by the MONITORS who actually MONITOR the MULTIVERSE and they tend to know about such things.
It was DS's rebirth that started the whole mess with his rebirth.
MM's opinion is irelevant and the entirety of the MULTIVERSAL MONITORS confirm it against the word of a MORTAL.

So to sum we have one panel of MM's OPINION against 7 ISSUES of ON PANEL PROOF.

OneDumbG0 Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by comicfan11
The thing is that the multiverse was okay even up to the point of Boss DS dying.
The Monitors say that themselves in FC 1.
And that was after the war and the fall as stated on panel in FC 1 again.
So no until Turpin DS was born the multiverse was OK and that was weeks or months after the war.
Not according to Mr Miracle and the Motherboxx. And who is the only one who witnessed the cosmic war and comments on it? The Monitors? No. Motherboxx:


Originally posted by comicfan11
As for the power of the ALE.
It doesn't matter what the other writers wrote because Morrison is the writer of FC and he RETCONED all other versions of the ALE to his. And this is the current version and the one used in this story.
Retcons happen all the time and from the time the happen they are considered the absolute canon for the story UNTIL someone retcons them again.
So whatever Starlin or Byrne or whoever thought of the ALE simply doesn't MATTER. DC's entire history on the ALE DOESN'T MATTER.
This is fine, as you can see, I never really relied much at all on prior history. And I don't mind conceding that prior history was pretty much completely retconned. A poor job by DC editors as a whole. I'm not even thinking about Death of the New Gods, btw.
Originally posted by comicfan11
As for the Spectre I've already proven at least 5 times that the multiverse was being destroyed before even Cain met with him.
Again on panel.
Straw-man. I NEVER SAID SPECTRE DESTROYS THE MULTIVERSE. Clearly, my position has ALWAYS been that the cosmic war caused time and space to break before anything. Spectre speaking the ALE, as commanded by Cain, was a command to unmake the world and rebuild it in Darkseid's image. But how? By speaking the ALE.
Originally posted by comicfan11
So to sum up DS even wounded from Orion finally manifested and started dragging the multiverse.
He was wounded as Boss Darkside but never dead but only when he took over Turpin the multiverse started collapsing.

All of the above HAPPEN ON PANEL.

What MM says is irrelevant.
What happened ON PANEL matters.

I know Darkseid started dragging the Multiverse when he manifested. But the damage to the Multiversal structure was already caused by the cosmic war. A cosmic war that Darkseid couldn't begin waging without having finally gained the ALE in Seven Soldiers. It all connects back to his gaining of the ALE. And Darkseid dying was not even part of his original plan, as exposed by Batman. Darkseid is a dying god, trying to drag everything unto a singularity. But in that singularity, how does he impose his will over all? The ALE. His plans started with the ALE, his revenge ends with the ALE. Even here, where Darkseid explains his ultimate goal by collapsing things, what does it sound like:

"All friends, enemies and lovers being Darkseid?" "All is Darkseid?" "One body?" "One mind?" "One will?" What does that sound like to you? Sounds like the ALE to me. And considering again that the Life Equation is used by the Miracle Machine to fulfill Superman's wish, how can you seriously state that the ALE has little to do with the story other than provide mind-control? Why would Darkseid even bother controlling all their minds with the ALE, if his personal power would already cause the Multiverse to collapse? What did enslaving all their minds do to further Darkseid's goal of collpasing reality? I mean, seriously?

OneDumbG0 Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by comicfan11
If we go by your logic you are giving full credit to a statement MM makes for an event he was not part of and we don't see on panel and ignore 7 issues of on panel proof that prove you wrong.
Nobody talks about the cosmic war EXCEPT Mr Miracle. And where does Mr Miracle get his information from? An actual survivor of the cosmic war, the Motherboxx. So I guess now, either, Motherboxx is lying or words get "lost in translation." "The war broke time and space." Yeah, I'm sure in your mind, that is easily translatable to Darkseid's own power broke time and space." Yea. Sure.
Originally posted by comicfan11
DS could be in possesion of the ALE and that helped him win the war.
Again so what. It's means to an end.
Libra also has possession of the ALE but he could never drag the multiverse. Why? because the ALE is just mind control, which he did.
Libra only uses the ALE for Darkseid's purpose. Same as Cain. That is eminently clear. This is a weak argument.
Originally posted by comicfan11
And again the multiverse was FINE after the WAR as stated by the MONITORS who actually MONITOR the MULTIVERSE and they tend to know about such things.
It was DS's rebirth that started the whole mess with his rebirth.
MM's opinion is irelevant and the entirety of the MULTIVERSAL MONITORS confirm it against the word of a MORTAL.

So to sum we have one panel of MM's OPINION against 7 ISSUES of ON PANEL PROOF.

The Monitors did not witness the war. The Monitors "tend to know such things?" Oh yeah, their omniscience really helped them keep a tight rein on everything. 🙄

No statement by anybody contradicts Mr Miracle's statement. That the war itself broke time and space, and Darkseid subsequently decided to drag the broken Multiverse down with him. However, in order for your view to be correct, Mr Miracle and Motherboxx have to be completely and utterly unreliable or wrong. So under the terms of pure logic, if there's a way to birng every fact under a one view, over the other, what's the more logical explanation? The one where everything can be reconciled? Or the one where you have to specifically ignore certain things? I.e. Mr Miracle's statements as witnessed by Motherboxx, Batman's exposure of Darkseid's true plans, the Miracle Machine's calculation of the Life Equation to grant Superman's wish, Cain's and Spectre's statements, etc. Cmon now.

comicfan11 Ocean's Heaviest Hitter

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not according to Mr Miracle and the Motherboxx. And who is the only one who witnessed the cosmic war and comments on it? The Monitors? No. Motherboxx:


This is fine, as you can see, I never really relied much at all on prior history. And I don't mind conceding that prior history was pretty much completely retconned. A poor job by DC editors as a whole. I'm not even thinking about Death of the New Gods, btw.
Straw-man. I NEVER SAID SPECTRE DESTROYS THE MULTIVERSE. Clearly, my position has ALWAYS been that the cosmic war caused time and space to break before anything. Spectre speaking the ALE, as commanded by Cain, was a command to unmake the world and rebuild it in Darkseid's image. But how? By speaking the ALE.
I know Darkseid started dragging the Multiverse when he manifested. But the damage to the Multiversal structure was already caused by the cosmic war. A cosmic war that Darkseid couldn't begin waging without having finally gained the ALE in Seven Soldiers. It all connects back to his gaining of the ALE. And Darkseid dying was not even part of his original plan, as exposed by Batman. Darkseid is a dying god, trying to drag everything unto a singularity. But in that singularity, how does he impose his will over all? The ALE. His plans started with the ALE, his revenge ends with the ALE. Even here, where Darkseid explains his ultimate goal by collapsing things, what does it sound like:

"All friends, enemies and lovers being Darkseid?" "All is Darkseid?" "One body?" "One mind?" "One will?" What does that sound like to you? Sounds like the ALE to me. And considering again that the Life Equation is used by the Miracle Machine to fulfill Superman's wish, how can you seriously state that the ALE has little to do with the story other than provide mind-control? Why would Darkseid even bother controlling all their minds with the ALE, if his personal power would already cause the Multiverse to collapse? What did enslaving all their minds do to further Darkseid's goal of collpasing reality? I mean, seriously?

Again the thing with the MM argument let's say that the war caused time to collapse.
So that happens after the end of the war.
So Orion is dead. That's the start of FC 1.
So going by your claims time already starts to collapse.

Now let's say the Monitors have absolutely no idea about the war (which they don't)
So the Monitors are Monitoring the multiverse and the time anomalies and everything (after all it's their job) and by the end of FC 1 AFTER THE END OF THE WAR AND WHILE BOSS DS IS STILL ALIVE, what do they see?

A BIG FAT NOTHING.
They state that EVERYTHING IS FINE IN THE MULTIVERSE,
And they know about time anomalies, since they are the ones who repair them by the end of FC 7 (Nix Uotan)

So no everything started getting messy after DS was reborn.

As for the ALE? It helped him control the 3 billion people. Nobody doubted that.

It did nothing however to help him drag the multiverse.
Slaves or no slaves all the people of Earth would follow him to the hell he was dragging the planet and the multiverse.

comicfan11 Ocean's Heaviest Hitter

I'm done with this thread for now.
It's basically you against every other poster on this thread.

I don't feel I have anything more to add just maybe suggest you reread FC and maybe then you'll see your arguments are wrong.

I won't even say IMO because it seems you stand alone in your Anti DS crusade.

So anyway have fun.

OneDumbG0 Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by comicfan11
Again the thing with the MM argument let's say that the war caused time to collapse.
So that happens after the end of the war.
So Orion is dead. That's the start of FC 1.
So going by your claims time already starts to collapse.

Now let's say the Monitors have absolutely no idea about the war (which they don't)
So the Monitors are Monitoring the multiverse and the time anomalies and everything (after all it's their job) and by the end of FC 1 AFTER THE END OF THE WAR AND WHILE BOSS DS IS STILL ALIVE, what do they see?

A BIG FAT NOTHING.
They state that EVERYTHING IS FINE IN THE MULTIVERSE,
And they know about time anomalies, since they are the ones who repair them by the end of FC 7 (Nix Uotan)

So no everything started getting messy after DS was reborn.

As for the ALE? It helped him control the 3 billion people. Nobody doubted that.

It did nothing however to help him drag the multiverse.
Slaves or no slaves all the people of Earth would follow him to the hell he was dragging the planet and the multiverse.

Oh I see. So the Monitors, who ended up being shown to be completely wrong about their responsibilities are somehow more reliable than an actual survivor and witness to the cosmic war. And this is because of a sweeping generalization of their function, not their actual actions. "Oh, well they were tasked to watching, so they must have watched." Yea. The only problem is that the Monitors were ultimately shown to be flawed at the end. So who's on-panel statements do you believe? The ultimately flawed Monitors who nearly destroyed the Multiverse with their tampering? Or Mr Miracle, as informed by an actual survivor of the cosmic war, Motherboxx?

In order to begin waging his cosmic war, Darkseid waited until he had the ALE. Darkseid also used his ALE to make everyone, him. Darkseid also had Cain order the Spectre to unmake creation and rebuild the world by speaking the ALE. And the Miracle Machine that fixed everything, calculated the Life Equation, when Wonderwoman already freed everyone.

So even if you want to deride all of that, "What was the point of Darkseid using the ALE throughout Final Crisis? IF he could use his own personal power, wholly independent of the ALE, to collapse the Multiverse, why bother using the ALE for 7 issues of Final Crisis?" Answer me that.

EDIT:

Originally posted by comicfan11
I'm done with this thread for now.
It's basically you against every other poster on this thread.

I don't feel I have anything more to add just maybe suggest you reread FC and maybe then you'll see your arguments are wrong.

I won't even say IMO because it seems you stand alone in your Anti DS crusade.

So anyway have fun.

Your prerogative. But, it's pretty much you and Allankles. Despite my appreciation of Tricksterpriest's contributions, he thought that Superman made two wishes. So you tell me whether his interpretations are really something you want to get behind. Fact is, I can reconcile everything posted under my view. But you can't. Mr Miracle's statement, as witnessed by Motherboxx, Cain's and Spectre's own statements, Batman's exposure of Darkseid's true plan, the Miracle Machine's calculation of the Life-Equation to fix everything. Most damning of all, you can't really explain why Darkseid bothers using the ALE at all, if his own independent power would break time and space and drag the Multiverse down.

Allankles Kwisatz Haderach
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So even if you want to deride all of that, "What was the point of Darkseid using the ALE throughout Final Crisis? IF he could use his own personal power, wholly independent of the ALE, to collapse the Multiverse, why bother using the ALE for 7 issues of Final Crisis?" Answer me that.

Yikes. He needs the ALE to enslave souls, all becomes one. However the singularity is the hell DS was creating so that no one would escape Anti-Life.

Anti-life needs to be heard, seen or spread like a contagion, only by dragging everything within reach can he infect all beings with Anti-life.

He says as much in FC 5 that he will drag everyone down to hell where he will kill their souls, that everyone will die for him.

EDIT: the Anti-life equation is mathematical proof that Darkseid is master of all sentient beings, its not some magical power up.

OneDumbG0 Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by Allankles
Yikes. He needs the ALE to enslave souls, all becomes one. However the singularity is the hell DS was creating so that no one would escape Anti-Life.

Anti-life needs to be heard, seen or spread like a contagion, only by dragging everything within reach can he infect all beings with Anti-life.

He says as much in FC 5 that he will drag everyone down to hell where he will kill their souls, that everyone will die for him.

EDIT: the Anti-life equation is mathematical proof that Darkseid is master of all living things, its not some magical power up.

I appreciate the answer. But I don't think you answered my question. I know what you think the ALE does. I want to know why Darkseid used it, in your view. So I'll rephrase it if I wasn't clear, "If everything was going to collapse into a singularity where everything is him, under his own power independent of the ALE, why did Darkseid spend 7 issues using, talking about and exhorting the ALE?"

Allankles Kwisatz Haderach
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I appreciate the answer. But I don't think you answered my question. I know what you think the ALE does. I want to know why Darkseid used it, in your view. So I'll rephrase it if I wasn't clear, "If everything was going to collapse into a singularity where everything is him, under his own power independent of the ALE, why did Darkseid spend 7 issues using, talking about and exhorting the ALE?"

DS used the ALE to turn people into his body. He couldn't achieve this without folding spacetime to draw everyone within reach of the ALE. The singularity is like a cosmic trap hole, it ensures that no one escapes the influence of Anti-life.

The singularity was described as a hell in which no one would escape.

The Great Galen Restricted

Originally posted by Allankles
DS used the ALE to turn people into his body. He couldn't achieve this without folding spacetime to draw everyone within reach of the ALE. The singularity is like a cosmic trap hole, it ensures that no one escapes the influence of Anti-life.

The singularity was described as a hell in which no one would escape.

Under DS's own power, he created this singularity?

OneDumbG0 Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by Allankles
DS used the ALE to turn people into his body. He couldn't achieve this without folding spacetime to draw everyone within reach of the ALE. The singularity is like a cosmic trap hole, it ensures that no one escapes the influence of Anti-life.

The singularity was described as a hell in which no one would escape.

Still doesn't quite answer the question. Because why bother making sure you can enslave everyone if their gonna all die and be reduced to a singularity that is Darkseid? So let me refocus, "Why bother enslaving their minds if everything and everyone is going to be crushed into the singularity by DS' own power anyway?" It's like... Darkseid wants to rule all minds with the ALE, right before he crushes all existence with his singularity. What's the point of controlling people's minds with a "spell" so-to-speak, if you're gonna destroy them all with your "god power." Why didn't Darkseid say, "Fear Anti-Life! I tell you now... I- ah fug it, no point, I'ma crush you all with my godly-powers anyway."

Do you understand why I have a hard time grasping your views? You completely strip all the peril of the ALE, that was exhaustively focused on throughout the seven issues of Final Crisis. That in itself, is a major contradiction of the plot, much less actual events and statements within the plot. So? Why bother enslaving their minds?

Allankles Kwisatz Haderach
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
"Why bother enslaving their minds if everything and everyone is going to be crushed into the singularity by DS' own power anyway?"

The Orrery of Worlds weren't going to get crushed by the singularity the event horizon of this singularity was folding space not crushing worlds into sub dimensions.

OneDumbG0 Find Your Own Fire

^ 🤨

I think I understand what you're trying to say. But that just came out of left field. Was the Multiverse being damaged? Was it being drawn into the singularity? Ugh... fatigue... This is all eerily reminiscent of my threads regarding Here Comes Tomorrow, also by Grant Morrison. Next time I get into an argument over one of his stories, I'm just gonna grab a mike and scream "GRRRAAAAANNNNNTTTT!!!!!11" Shatner-style.