Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, vader's SPEED has decreased. If anything his skill has increased. I would never claim that he is ROTS Anakin's equal in swordsmanship, but lets not make wild claims about his skills actually diminishing after the injury. He just had to "change" his skills.
I'm sorry but it's bluntly visible that his skill decreases after the Mustafar incident. Don't be so naive. He clearly did not just lose speed. He lost mobility as well. He can't utilize the Shien form as successfully as he used to. Have you seen Vader's saber mobility after the incident on Mustafar?
Originally posted by Publius II
And yet, he still frequently mourns his comparative lack of power.
When he used the dark side as Jedi he would tap into his essentially unlimited reserves of power; he no longer has that advantage as Vader.
See the above.Better than he was in RotS or earlier? Doubtful.
First off, he was he choking Bene with his hand, not the Force. Second, we never saw how that fight ended. Third, that was Vader before the suit; this isn't.
As Gideon pointed out, Anakin as Vader proceeded to utterly refine his style. And in Crimson Empire, he displays some very talented feats of Acrobats against the best of the Royal Guard trainees.
Ventress might give Vader a slightly difficult time, but he'd kill her.
Originally posted by Forum Ninja
I'm sorry but it's bluntly visible that his skill decreases after the Mustafar incident. Don't be so naive. He clearly did not just lose speed. He lost mobility as well. He can't utilize the Shien form as successfully as he used to. Have you seen Vader's saber mobility after the incident on Mustafar?
He never used Shien. And I saw Vader's saber mobility when he was fending off multiple Jedi masters and knights in Purge. Which REALLY kills your point.
Vader, btw, used Djem So and proceeded to incorporate other elements into it, making him even more formidable.
Originally posted by Forum NinjaLack of mobility and agility, while certainly an inhibitor, doesn't necessarily correlate to decreased skill. Not all the saber forms required total dexterity.
I'm sorry but it's bluntly visible that his skill decreases after the Mustafar incident. Don't be so naive. He clearly did not just lose speed. He lost mobility as well. He can't utilize the Shien form as successfully as he used to. Have you seen Vader's saber mobility after the incident on Mustafar?
Originally posted by GideonIt's more than likely that Anakin was already familiar with most of those styles before his duel with Obi-Wan. The Sith novelization and, according to you, the Ultimate Visual Guide both explain that during the beginning of the duel, Anakin and Obi-Wan were using alternate styles to throw Dooku off; I believe they were Shii-Cho and Ataru, respectively. We already know from the half a dozen or more descriptions of the bond between the two that Anakin knew Obi-Wan's style inside out and vice-versa, so there's Soresu. I believe the Attack of the Clones visual guide notes that Anakin utilized Ataru himself until the advent of the Clone War, but don't hold me to that.
The Rise of Darth Vader also points out that Vader was able to use elements of all seven lightsaber forms into a unique style that led to the deaths of several Jedi Knights in single combat. While he certainly isn't as agile or as quick, there's no reason to assume that his mastery of both the lightsaber or the Force diminished or that he couldn't have focused on improving both of them, despite his anatomical state.
So that's three of seven that he is at least familiar with, and possibly four. One might assume that he was trained in Niman as a youth, and took to studying critical aspects of Makashi after his first duel with Dooku, but those are assumptions.
I should get to the rest of your points in this.
Originally posted by LightsnakeDid you not read my first post?
He is eighty percent of his master's power. Do you think Ventress, in any way, shape or form, can compare to that?
Originally posted by MeI make it very clear that a duel is the only place in which Ventress can contend with Vader on equal footing.
1.) [Revised]2.) ROFLstomp.
3.) Stomp. He is far too powerful for her to contend with for long.
And by your logic, no one this side of Yoda, Luke, and Caedus should be able to lay a finger on him. Vader's duel with the Dark Woman sort of takes the steam out of that argument.
As Vader, he already has substantial and significant dark side power, howeverThe Revenge of the Sith novel has Vader reflecting on his own loss of power; no later source implies that he gained back that power. It isn't what he could consciously do that I'm debating, it's what unconsciously tapping into his unlimited reserves of power while under the thrall of the dark side allows him to do. Ventress? Dooku? He couldn't take beat either of them without giving in to the rage, but once he did there was basically no stopping him.
Hell, even before Count Dooku makes Anakin angry, the novel - and the script - note that Skywalker's power makes him stronger as the fight progresses. Vader? Not so much. His duel with Roan Shryne didn't see him gaining power, nor do his duels with any Jedi afterwards, including his final battles against Galen and Luke. He doesn't have that kind of power available to him anymore, and it's not about acquired power; even Yoda and Palpatine tire after long, intense battles. It's about the reserves of power afforded to Anakin by his peerless potential. Vader no longer has that, or at least he can't touch it.
As Gideon provided, there are sources indicating otherwiseThose sources never once suggest that he is a superior swordsman overall to his younger self. Not a one. Gideon noted that there is no evidence to suggest that Vader didn't work on his agility; I realize that. But unless I am mistaken, the TUF novel still has him using a relatively slow and measured - if powerful and precise - style of combat against Galen. He never turns into some sort of catlike speed demon.
Errr, I'm pretty sure he was Forc e Choking her,Watch it again, LS. He's holding Bene with his left hand while he and Drallig circle around one another.
and if he was using his hand, then he's fending off the Jedi Order's Saber instructor while being grounded in place.They're both moving.
No offense, but is your memory of the scene really that foggy?
And we know how the fight ended. Vader quickly outmaneuvered Cin and sliced through his shoulder, killing him.I assume you get that from the scene in in DN; that's what had confused me in the first place. Thanks for the clarification.
That said, you're only furthering my point; we never see suited Vader do anything with a lightsaber that is comparable to the things he did when he was "whole."
As Gideon pointed out, Anakin as Vader proceeded to utterly refine his style.I realize. But the refinements were meant to compensate for the loss of speed and agility
And in Crimson Empire, he displays some very talented feats of Acrobats against the best of the Royal Guard trainees.Nothing that would impress a Jedi.
Ventress might give Vader a slightly difficult time, but he'd kill her."Slightly" difficult? That's a ridiculous assertion.
He never used Shien. And I saw Vader's saber mobility when he was fending off multiple Jedi masters and knights in Purge. Which REALLY kills your point.You realize he got bitched in Purge, right? Not the best example.
That said, OT Vader is most definitely a more technically skilled duelist than his younger incarnation.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He never used Shien. And I saw Vader's saber mobility when he was fending off multiple Jedi masters and knights in Purge. Which REALLY kills your point.Vader, btw, used Djem So and proceeded to incorporate other elements into it, making him even more formidable.
That has to be one of the most incorrect statements I've seen in my duration here so far.
Shien and Djem So go hand in hand. They're both included in Form five and it's training process. Anakin used it against Dooku three times. He later adopted more styles but saying he never used it is outright ignorant.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Djem_So
How does that kill my point? If you're referring to the Purge comic book, Darth Vader is cornered and outmaneuvered by Potkin. Potkin used a sword to do this, by the way. He has to use the force in order to gain the upper hand.
This is why I mentioned that Ventress may win in lightsabers and lose in the force. If some nobody can do that to Vader with a sword, Ventress won't be able to? Seriously? Also, he gets his hand severed in a duel furthermore and surrenders at the mercy of the Jedi. Vader gains the upper hand again using the force but is cornered for the third time. Then, he gets his clone trooper friends to save his ass from getting murdered.
Is that the one? Is that the comic you're referring to? Did I make a mistake?
Originally posted by Forum Ninja
That has to be one of the most incorrect statements I've seen in my duration here so far.Shien and Djem So go hand in hand. They're both included in Form five and it's training process. Anakin used it against Dooku three times. He later adopted more styles but saying he never used it is outright ignorant.
No, they don't, any more than Jar'Kai goes 'hand in hand' with Niman. Anakin also, you'll notice, only assumes it against Dooku to fool him, as noted on the ROTS novelization. Shien is derived from Djem So, but Djem So is almost different entirely and that is Anakin's true strength.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Djem_So
How does that kill my point? If you're referring to the Purge comic book, Darth Vader is cornered and outmaneuvered by Potkin.
Potkin used a sword to do this, by the way. He has to use the force in order to gain the upper hand.
This is why I mentioned that Ventress may win in lightsabers and lose in the force. If some nobody can do that to Vader with a sword, Ventress won't be able to?
Seriously? Also, he gets his hand severed in a duel furthermore and surrenders at the mercy of the Jedi. Vader gains the upper hand again using the force but is cornered for the third time. Then, he gets his clone trooper friends to save his ass from getting murdered.
Is that the one? Is that the comic you're referring to? Did I make a mistake?
At what point has Vader shown that he will be outmatched by people with manueverability and agility? he kind of compensated for the suit, you'll notice, otherwise anyone with Ataru could've killed him.
One would think, in the words of Palpatine, the 'Greatest Jedi Killer' would have long compensated.
Originally posted by Publius II
It's more than likely that Anakin was already familiar with most of those styles before his duel with Obi-Wan. The Sith novelization and, according to you, the Ultimate Visual Guide both explain that during the beginning of the duel, Anakin and Obi-Wan were using alternate styles to throw Dooku off; I believe they were Shii-Cho and Ataru, respectively. We already know from the half a dozen or more descriptions of the bond between the two that Anakin knew Obi-Wan's style inside out and vice-versa, so there's Soresu. I believe the Attack of the Clones visual guide notes that Anakin utilized Ataru himself until the advent of the Clone War, but don't hold me to that.
Did you not read my first post?
I make it very clear that a duel is the only place in which Ventress can contend with Vader on equal footing.
And by your logic, no one this side of Yoda, Luke, and Caedus should be able to lay a finger on him. Vader's duel with the Dark Woman sort of takes the steam out of that argument.
The Revenge of the Sith novel has Vader reflecting on his own loss of power; no later source implies that he gained back that power. It isn't what he could consciously do that I'm debating, it's what unconsciously tapping into his unlimited reserves of power while under the thrall of the dark side allows him to do. Ventress? Dooku? He couldn't take beat either of them without giving in to the rage, but once he did there was basically no stopping him.
Hell, even before Count Dooku makes Anakin angry, the novel - and the script - note that Skywalker's power makes him stronger as the fight progresses. Vader? Not so much. His duel with Roan Shryne didn't see him gaining power, nor do his duels with any Jedi afterwards, including his final battles against Galen and Luke. He doesn't have that kind of power available to him anymore, and it's not about acquired power; even Yoda and Palpatine tire after long, intense battles. It's about the reserves of power afforded to Anakin by his peerless potential. Vader no longer has that, or at least he can't touch it.
Those sources never once suggest that he is a superior swordsman overall to his younger self. Not a one.
Gideon noted that there is no evidence to suggest that Vader didn't work on his agility; I realize that. But unless I am mistaken, the TUF novel still has him using a relatively slow and measured - if powerful and precise - style of combat against Galen. He never turns into some sort of catlike speed demon.
Watch it again, LS. He's holding Bene with his left hand while he and Drallig circle around one another.They're both moving.
No offense, but is your memory of the scene really that foggy?
I assume you get that from the scene in in DN; that's what had confused me in the first place. Thanks for the clarification.
That said, you're only furthering my point; we never see suited Vader do anything with a lightsaber that is comparable to the things he did when he was "whole."
I realize. But the refinements were meant to compensate for the loss of speed and agility
Nothing that would impress a Jedi.
"Slightly" difficult? That's a ridiculous assertion.
You realize he got bitched in Purge, right? Not the best example.
That said, OT Vader is most definitely a more technically skilled duelist than his younger incarnation.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Interesting. Grievous couldn't defeat Obiwan and Obiwan couldn't defeat Ventress.
well ventress couldn't defeat obi wan either.. it was mostly stalemates. at least this one time, I recall reading about them holding their breaths underwater and she wasn't willing to die, and left. It was kinda like a contest or something.. lol
Originally posted by LightsnakeLook.
As we can see, by the time of ROTS, Anakin has surpassed Ventress's level.
Six months before Sith, the Battle of Rendili. Ignoring the fact that Skywalker attacked her in a rage to begin with, she mocks and toys with him for almost the entirety of the duel. Even when furious, he can barely touch her. I highly doubt that he's advanced that much in six months.
I sincerely doubt he is diminished to the level where Ventress can contend with him thereThe faster, more agile, more powerful Anakin could hardly contend with her to begin with.
Not only was An'ya a highly powerful and experienced Jedi Master, she was using the environment to her advantage all the way through the fight and noticably not standing to fight. She had the advantage of being very familiar with where she was fighting and using it to her advantage.Fair enough.
Vader's potential and growth were certainly stunted, but he's still a monster in the Force as Vader. With years of training, there's a good bet he doesn't need to subconsciously give himself to rage when he is capable of using his rage very effectively in a fight.I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp. What Anakin could subconsciously tap into in moments of dire need is something that was completely unique to him; Vader can't do it. It isn't about progressive mastery of the Force, it's about what Anakin's limitless reserves of power allowed him to in moments of rage. And make no mistake, almost all of his greatest showings are done under the thrall of the dark side.Vader is always living with hate and anger and he IS using them. It's hard to gain more power than being over half the power of the most powerful Dark Lord ever. I believe there's a quote about Vader's skills with a saber honed even further during the Jedi Purge but even that was secondary to his 'incredible mastery of the Force.'
You're forgetting Dooku's comments of Ani having 'hate and anger' but not using them.No, I'm highlighting the fact that when he did use them, he could call on power reserves that he simply doesn't have as an older Vader.
See above there. Vader compensated for his losses, incorporated more styles into his fighting style and most certainly honed his abilitiesHe's never as fast, he's never as agile, he's never as powerful. The compensation only goes so far.
Apparently so, but my point remains. With one hand he is fending off and defeating Cin Drallig with attention devoted to strangling another JediBeen over this. You're furthering my point.
And compensate they did. If Vader would've been easily dismantled by just speed, someone would have done it many timesHow many accomplished swordsman lived past the purge and went on to fight Vader? Obi-Wan? Sacrificed himself to let Luke escape. Maul clone? Killed only when Vader stabbed through himself. Starkiller? Kicked his ass.
Possibly difficult then, but I do not see Ventress winning. Especially not against Vader several years into the Purge when he finds his gameHe appears to make most of his leaps early on, in RoDV. I've seen little indication of any notable increase in agility or efficiency past that point.
I realize he fought numerous Jedi simultaneously and was only in real danger when he lost his saber thanks to the cortosis bladeYou need to take another look.
A point I was trying to makeHis skill doesn't make up for the lost power. He never regained the ability to grow stronger as a duel progresses, which is what won him several critical battles as a Jedi.
Originally posted by Publius II
Look.Six months before Sith, the Battle of Rendili. Ignoring the fact that Skywalker attacked her in a rage to begin with, she mocks and toys with him for almost the entirety of the duel. Even when furious, he can barely touch her. I highly doubt that he's advanced that much in six months.
The faster, more agile, more powerful Anakin could hardly contend with her to begin with.
I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp. What Anakin could subconsciously tap into in moments of dire need is something that was completely unique to him; Vader can't do it. It isn't about progressive mastery of the Force, it's about what Anakin's limitless reserves of power allowed him to in moments of rage. And make no mistake, almost all of his greatest showings are done under the thrall of the dark side.
No, I'm highlighting the fact that when he did use them, he could call on power reserves that he simply doesn't have as an older Vader.
He's never as fast, he's never as agile, he's never as powerful. The compensation only goes so far.
Been over this. You're furthering my point.How many accomplished swordsman lived past the purge and went on to fight Vader? Obi-Wan? Sacrificed himself to let Luke escape. Maul clone? Killed only when Vader stabbed through himself. Starkiller? Kicked his ass.
He appears to make most of his leaps early on, in RoDV. I've seen little indication of any notable increase in agility or efficiency past that point.
You need to take another look.
His skill doesn't make up for the lost power. He never regained the ability to grow stronger as a duel progresses, which is what won him several critical battles as a Jedi.
Vader's shown himself capable of defending against maneuverable and agile opponents and his precision has shown to be a great advantage.
If it was so easy to take Vader out, any number of fighters would have done so. Keep in mind, he's also fast enough to reduce a full assassination squad of stormies to chopped limbs and smoking armor before their commander can even flee to the door in Empire
Originally posted by LightsnakeYeah, with the rage, which is what he needed to take Ventress, too.
He is able to fight and kill Dooku and Cin Drallig.
At his peak, Anakin was more than contending with her better.The duel closest to their respective peaks had Skywalker getting humiliated until he snapped.
I get it. He can't go 'in the zone' and tap into that anymore due to physical or mental limitations. What he CAN do is call up the vast Dark Side power he has as VaderWhich isn't remotely the same. This is the fourth time I'm saying this now, LS. Show me any scenario that depicts Vader growing stronger as the fight progresses. Go ahead.
Being able to use acquired power is not the same as Anakin being able to draw on his peerless potential.
And he has power and experience to compensate for that.Nothing compensates for that in a duel, LS.
He's more skilled, more experienced and consistently his prowess is commented upon, Palpatine even calls him his finest creation and his greatest Jedi Killer who'd ever lived,His only other creation was Maul, so this is a given.
in comparison to his viewing of Ventress as merely capable. There is a reason why Ventress, in no uncertain terms, is never once seen as a Sith Apprentice.This is arguably one of the worst arguments I've ever seen you make, and it also happens to be completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. We're discussing a duel, not the overall merits of each respective character. Again, I refer you to my initial post on the matter:
Originally posted by Me
1.) [Revised]2.) ROFLstomp.
3.) Stomp. He is far too powerful for her to contend with for long.
The compensation goes quite far enough, especially when Vader has this tendency to consistently rise to the occasion.Such as...?
An'ya Kuro? Rannik Solusar? Kento Marek and his master, Brand...there were quite a few survivors and Vader is known for having killed the vast majority of them.When any of them are remotely comparable to Kit Fisto, Obi-wan, or Ventress, you let me know.
At the very worst, he takes a blow from Jastus. The battle isn't Vader getting overwhelmed until he loses the lightsaberAt which point he flees, kills the Jedi with the blade, deactivates most of the other lightsabers, and gets punked to the point that he has to stall by pretending to surrender while the others debate what to do with him. Then, he goes down again at the end when the three surviving Jedi Masters completely overwhelm him with the Force.
Again, not his best showing. His mission to Kashyyyk in RoDV is much better, simply because he actually wins, and under his own power.
Look how powerful Vader is. He's had 18 years of study as a Sith Apprentice, has had time to adjust to his flaws and in power, he's eight tenths of Palpatine and that's apparently not inconsiderate in the slightest. His skills with a saber, which you yourself have noted are technically better than when he was unburnt, are said to pale next to his mastery of the force, and this apparently without the Sith Amulet he has under his right glove to bolster his power. (Source: Evil Never Dies: the Sith Dynasties)Hurray for relevance.
You're indulging yourself in kotor3 and Truculent-class filler.
Vader's shown himself capable of defending against maneuverable and agile opponentsVery few of whom were comparable duelists to Ventress, and the two that were - Starkiller and Maul - were basically too much for him to handle. The former was simply better than him in every way, and the latter overwhelmed him with, you guessed it, Jar'Kai.
and his precision has shown to be a great advantage.Granted. But not nearly enough to compensate fully for what he lost at Mustafar.
If it was so easy to take Vader out, any number of fighters would have done so.Go find where I said it would be "easy."
I won't tolerate you misconstruing my argument. This will probably be my last post on the matter, because the idea of a relatively obscure and unpopular character being good seems like a difficult concept for you to grasp.
