Vader vs ventress

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In the raid on the Jedi temple, was he giving in to 'the rage' like he was with Dooku, though?

Anakin was ALREADY a monumentally powerful Jedi before his fall

To be fair here, Faunus, they played a game of cat and mouse. Asajj wasn't dominating them-they had not fully engaged until Anakin heard her threaten to murder Padme

Alright, in that context, no, I'll fully admit I misunderstood. My point is, however, that Vader's command of the force and his own power exceeds Anakin's

I hope we're not going to argue that Ventress is superior to Maul. Maul, who decimates an entire army of the galaxy's finest killers without a scratch or takes down the Jedi Order's battlemaster...

And Palpatine did create a lot of things. Byss was his personal little laboratory and he did have a passion for alchemy.

My point here is, if Ventress was to the level of people like Vader, even in the suit, very likely she wouldn't have been seen as a disposable pawn who Dooku casually ordered SHOT in Obsession.

I sincerely hope that's not why you think Vader, Bulq, or Grievous were important.

His battles against Sa Cuis and Sheyvan-both Emperor's Hands, against Trachta's plot to kill him, against the Dark Woman, his striking down Ma'Kis like it was nothing when Ma'Kis was first mentioned, he was called a fusion of the abilities of Morgukai and Jedi and called 'unstoppable,' recognized as a threat enough to put a direct price on his head by Palpatine....and he doesn't do too shabbily against Celeste Morne or her Rakghouls, I've heard.

Also, doesn't he kill a few Jedi in Rise of Darth Vader as well?

Of course, he ends up defeating Shryne with the Force, and Shryne couldn't even telekinetically move a fallen super battle droid... but I digress.

Well, they are pelting him with rocks rather viciously, that's a bit difficult to defend from, when one enemy is a council level master assisted by two other masters and Vader is still fresh in the suit. When it came to a saber, however? Without Shadday having prepared the Cortosis Blade, it's doubtful Vader would've been in that trouble.

Maul outclasses Ventress in every way, it's not even a contest there.

Starkiller does as well.

Enough to make sure Ventress, by virtue of being maneuverable and fast won't overwhelm him there. He's most certainly more skilled than she is as a fighter, he's remarkably talented, he's demonstrated some exemplary speed and power at times...he's a monster

Faunus, come off it, there's a difference between me not thinking Ventress is good-because I most definitely think she is.

Don't misconstrue my argument, either.

I dislike Ventress's character, but she's a talent for certain. I imply do not think she would take Vader in a saber fight.

In hindsight, this was a very disjointed rebuttal. I don't think I be debating anymore today...

Ventress obviously isn't as buff or as fast as maul, and Vader took Maul's clone (with a little difficulty), and defeated Maul. I would put Maul pretty far above Ventress. And Vader's command of the Force surpasses Ventress's by alot.
Ventress wouldn't be able to contend with Vader's brute physial strength, or unorthodox style. (not sure If I spelled that correctly.)

Maul is not above Ventress.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm sorry. I must have figured you for something other than a whiny, dishonest troll.

You have my sincerest apologies, the respect I had shown for you initially will end.

No, you're being outrageous. I didn't troll you. Did I utilize my psychic powers and predict you were going to reply to me so I could troll you? My first post in this thread addressed the topic at hand. What aren't you getting? If you cannot debate without allowing your emotions to control you, I simply refuse to even discuss things with you.

There's a difference between being an aggressive debater and outright bashing someone. Here is the deal, alright? You've insulted me and I did not appreciate it. Despite that, I'm just going to take it as a quick jab. You may have had a bad day or something. Regardless, I forgive you. I will reply to your debate soundly and hope this event does not occur a second time in the future.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I ask you not to abuse that. Please.

In the context I stated it, I meant that it was NOT his main style as your post implied. His main stance was Djem So.
And to paraphrase the ROTS novel: "Dooku realized the Shii-cho and Shien stances were but a ruse. The boy had become a Djem So specialist, as fine as any Dooku had ever seen."

Yes, he had. I agree. How does this prove he was not a Shien practitioner? If he used it as a ruse, he has knowledge of it. He had become a Djem So form user. I don't disagree. What do think he utilized before this?

Also, this is what bothers me the most. It's clear you meant he never used Shien. Not once. Should I regurgitate the post?

He never used Shien.

What part of your own mistake arent you understanding, Lightsnake? Let's say for arguments sake that you're right and he only did use it as a ruse that one time. This means he did use it. That eliminates "never", okay?

According to Palpatine, the mental trauma and self loathing.

I doubt that's all. Burning at the bottom of a scolding hot hill with your limbs gone might halter lightsaber speed and maneuverability. Also, why do you continue to mention Palpatine? He's manipulative and is a liar. Am I suppose to believe everything he says? I'm sure that's not all that damaged his physical performance with a lightsaber. Come on.

Such as? And 'lost finesse and mobility?' At what point does he have trouble moving, now?

I never said he had trouble moving. If anything, you can use rhetoric quite well, Lightsnake. Due to his cybernetic change and loss of organic limbs, he cannot do the maneuvers he could before. There is a noticeable change. He cannot contort himself to the lengths he could when he was anatomically full. For example, he can spin his lightsaber around, perform extensive twists and is considerably faster.

Observe:

Anakin Skywalker fighting before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

After, as Darth Vader
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCyZ2P9bCA&feature=related
What part of this isn't sticking? He clearly cannot do things he could do before. This shortens his ability as a duelist. Simple. Even using "Purge" as an example, you stated earlier this showed his maneuverability. No, it didn't. He didn't even fight with a lightsaber for more than a few seconds.

Look at his fights with any of the numerous beings he turns into tiny flesh colored ribbons as Vader, even when he hasn't even compensated for the suit yet. Notice numerous sources harp on and on about his martial prowess for a reason? Why, exactly, did none of Palpatine's powerful and power hungry servants as Sedriss, Cronal, Jerec and many others simply kill the slow, immobile Vader? Let's think, now.

Why didn't they just kill him? He's powerful. No one is denying his power. This is what you're missing. He's simply not an accomplished duelist like he was in the PT. Also, I'm sure those servants fear his force powers as well. Or let me guess, to suit your argument, they must just be shivering at his lightsaber skills. Lol.

Every last one of them was a war veteran, Tsui Choi was apparently considered for the Jedi Council, Ma'Kis was a former Morgukai described as 'unstoppable' in combat...and one of them at least was a survivor of Geonosis and all were good enough to survive Order 66.
Yeah. That says skill

Surviving Order 66 doesn't make you uber with skill. A quick example would be Maris Brood, apprentice to Shaak Ti. Apparently, Morgukai was unstoppable considering Vader could not disable him with a 'saber. Vader did dispose of them and he is skilled. This does not prove anything when it comes to lightsaber combat. He had to turn their sabers off. He probably knew he'd lose in a duel. Hell, even in force, the three masters overpowered him near the end. And yes, he did surrender. He needed to buy time. Sad.

Actually, he grabbed her and broke her neck.
Vader didn't use the Force there.

My apologies. I thought he used the force to do that. Damn, that mother has some deadly hands.

If you're going to be this utterly anal, then yes I was wrong. He had a knowledge of Shien. It was not, however, his main form, or anything close to it.

Where in Christs name did I say that? Thank you for admitting that. I appreciate it. I don't understand why you didn't in the first place. People make mistakes. Pushing your pride and pretending you didn't just makes you look arrogant.

And yes, while Vader was being hemmed in on all sides by quite a few Jedi, he was not only fending them all off, he'd killed two of them.

That's nice. We were discussing lightsaber speed and maneuverability. If he didn't kill those two Jedi with a lightsaber or barely used it in the fight, how is it relevant?

1. Ventress is not a Sith Assassin. She is a Dark Jedi as well as an assassin to boot.

Actually, she is a Dark Acolyte, to be specific. I usually refer to her as a Sith due to her nature and training under Dooku. Sorry for that. She is similar to a Sith. Dooku points this out as well:
"A bold claim, but you are not Sith. You wear the trappings of the Sith, you fight like the Sith, but this can be imitated, however. You lack a vital quality found in all Sith. Sith have no fear, and I sense much fear in you."

She's a fraud. Lol.

2. One Dark Jedi vs. numerous Jedi masters all at once, one of whom is armed with a Cortosis sword? Unless Ventress has a weapon for the sole purpose of deactivating a saber and a bunch of buddies to take advantage of this, what will she do in the same situation?

Oh no! One Jedi is armed with a sword?! Do you remember the incident on Rattatak in the Cauldron? She fought several seasoned aliens and gladiators armed with all sorts of weaponry. I'm almost guaranteeing she'd last longer in lightsaber combat against these masters than Vader would, simply due to the fact that she is not a walking tin can.

I'll say this as you clearly have NEVER READ THE COMIC
He was 'somewhat distracted' because he needed to disarm Shadday and break her neck. He was killing an opponent and had just lost his weapon.
And Vader 'surrendered' only to provoke them to fight amongst themselves

I own Purge. What the hell are you going on about? If he was pretending to surrender, he was at their mercy. If they just decided to strike him down, he'd be done with. Don't worry about it. His troopers came and saved the day.

I read the comic. He was somewhat distracted because he was cornered and had his lightsaber disabled. He used the force because he could not overwhelm her with lightsaber skill. Have you LOOKED at the illustrations in the comic instead of just examining text?

Yeah, there was no fact twisting from you at all.
Yeah, bullshit.

Er, no. I made a few mistakes that I've taken responsibility for. You're still distorting the entirety of the debate.

Question still applies, kiddles.

I don't know how many different ways I need to answer it before you understand or how much things I need to show you.

If by 'barely defeat' you mean 'Anakin using the Dark Side utterly crushed her' and this is an Anakin who became skilled enough to defeat DOOKU, someone so far above Asajj's level, trying to compare them is laughable.
Not only did Vader compensate for his damage, but has demonstrated extreme levels of skill, speed and ability that...yes, he could take Asajj

Yes, he did. What does that have to do with cybernetic Vader fighting Ventress? Oh gee, Obi Wan took down Anakin after he defeated Dooku and Asajj defeated Obi Wan. Comparing them is laughable. No one is laughing at failing logic, Lightsnake.

Just because Jedi Knight Anakin can defeat Dooku doesn't mean that Ventress cannot defeat cybernetic Vader. Yes, he has demonstrated skill with the force and even considerable skill with a lightsaber. Vader would defeat her generally. In a lightsaber duel? No. Absolutely not.

Oh, surely this had nothing to do with all the conflict in him and not wanting to hurt his, you know. SON.

Well, I agree. People don't normally wish to hurt their own son. Unfortunately, we're discussing a Sith Lord, not Mother Teresa. He had no emotions towards his son prior to that moment. Of course, he eventually came through and saved his life but he tore his SONS hand off with ease and asked him to join or else he'd kebab him with a 'saber.

Strange how you forget Vader's mind is in utter conflict and Luke even says he feels the conflict in him. And let's not forget Luke's potential is comparable to Anakin's and that by giving in to his rage, he's unleashing a lot against his dad.

I agree with you. I totally understand. After Vader had threatened his sister, he totally geared into batshit Jedi mode. That's not the point. Vader genuinely attempted to defend himself and disarm Luke. He was unable to. He did not have the skill to. His son had defeated him. He did not hold back. It says that NOWHERE despite the eternal conflict. No evidence suggests he was holding back. I could understand this being a possibility on ROTJ but not on ESB. Luke even had an open opportunity to nick his father on his arm. This is when Vader flipped his lid.

I'm not trying to completely demean Vader's skill in general here. He is a considerably powerful force user. There is no doubt about that. From what I've seen, his swordplay has deteriorated after the Mustafar incident. This is clear in his mobility. Look at the prequel trilogy.

And having read the novel and the script? Funny how you get so snappish and whiny all of a sudden

You have? Oh really?

Luke ignites his lightsaber and screams in anger, rushing at his father
with a frenzy we have not seen before. Sparks fly as Luke and Vader
fight in the cramped area. Luke's hatred forces Vader to retreat out of
the low area and across a bridge overlooking a vast elevator shaft.
Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his father further toward defeat.

The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword to
block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off at the
wrist, causing metal and electronic parts to fly from the mechanical
stump. Vader's sword clatters uselessly away, over the
edge of the platform and into the bottomless shaft below. Luke moves
over Vader and holds the blade of his sword to the Dark Lord's throat.
The Emperor watches with uncontrollable, pleased agitation.

Source: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Return-of-the-Jedi.html

Speaking of evidence, where does it suggest that Vader was holding back before he had turned against Palpatine? Oh wait. Luke, the Jedi with less than a year of training, thought he sensed that his father had a little slice of good in him. Is this why Vader used the force to find information about his sister to use against him? In an effort to turn him to the dark side? You beg me for evidence but cannot provide any yourself? Do not practice such bold hypocrisy, Lightsnake. It will not go by unnoticed.

OH, and you THINK it may have been due to maneuverability? Pardon me if I don't give a damn what you think. Prove up or shut up.

Prove? What is there to prove? In the EU material and in the films, It is obvious his skill has deteriorated after the injury. Get with reality.

As I pointed out, several times, Vader in the EU has demonstrated skill and ability that show he amply compensated for his loss. He wasn't weak, or unskilled in the slightest and if you think he was, you're ignoring all the evidence from the EU that smacks your argument in its ass.

The evidence? Are you talking of events that you twisted? Just like Vader shows his maneuverability (You said that) in Purge when he lost the short lightsaber duel that he had?

Oh, I trust Palpatine on the matters of assessments of Dark Jedi that work for him, by the by.

Yes, I do as well. He sure counted on getting put into a generator shaft.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
No, you're being outrageous. I didn't troll you. Did I utilize my psychic powers and predict you were going to reply to me so I could troll you? My first post in this thread addressed the topic at hand. What aren't you getting? If you cannot debate without allowing your emotions to control you, I simply refuse to even discuss things with you.

Also, I'm sure those servants fear his force powers as well. Or let me guess, to suit your argument, they must just be shivering at his lightsaber skills. Lol.[

Surviving Order 66 doesn't make you uber with skill. A quick example would be Maris Brood, apprentice to Shaak Ti.

Apparently, Morgukai was unstoppable considering Vader could not disable him with a 'saber. Vader did dispose of them and he is skilled. This does not prove anything when it comes to lightsaber combat. He had to turn their sabers off. He probably knew he'd lose in a duel. Hell, even in force, the three masters overpowered him near the end. And yes, he did surrender. He needed to buy time. Sad.

My apologies. I thought he used the force to do that. Damn, that mother has some deadly hands.

Where in Christs name did I say that? Thank you for admitting that. I appreciate it. I don't understand why you didn't in the first place. People make mistakes. Pushing your pride and pretending you didn't just makes you look arrogant.

That's nice. We were discussing lightsaber speed and maneuverability. If he didn't kill those two Jedi with a lightsaber or barely used it in the fight, how is it relevant?

Actually, she is a Dark Acolyte, to be specific. I usually refer to her as a Sith due to her nature and training under Dooku. Sorry for that. She is similar to a Sith. Dooku points this out as well:
"A bold claim, but you are not Sith. You wear the trappings of the Sith, you fight like the Sith, but this can be imitated, however. You lack a vital quality found in all Sith. Sith have no fear, and I sense much fear in you."

She's a fraud. Lol.

Oh no! One Jedi is armed with a sword?! Do you remember the incident on Rattatak in the Cauldron? She fought several seasoned aliens and gladiators armed with all sorts of weaponry. I'm almost guaranteeing she'd last longer in lightsaber combat against these masters than Vader would, simply due to the fact that she is not a walking tin can. [/B]

You turn ignorance into an art form.

I own Purge. What the hell are you going on about? If he was pretending to surrender, he was at their mercy. If they just decided to strike him down, he'd be done with. Don't worry about it. His troopers came and saved the day.

Yes, I do as well. He sure counted on getting put into a generator shaft.

Given Palpatine knows about Ventress and DERIDES HER IN THE SAME SECTION, what does that tell you? Is Palpatine lying to himself about his subordinates' abilities?

Liar Liar.. lol u sound like Anakin

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The one time he used the force was preventing Tsui Choi from escaping so she'd be gunned down.

I think.

I think they've changed Choi's gender like three times.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
I'm not trying to completely demean Vader's skill in general here. He is a considerably powerful force user. There is no doubt about that. From what I've seen, his swordplay has deteriorated after the Mustafar incident. This is clear in his mobility. Look at the prequel trilogy.

This post is epic in its stupidity; what a lousy argument. Comparing the speeds of characters relative to the prequel or original trilogies is stupid. Palpatine, who is established through various supplement sources as being the most powerful and deadliest Lord of the Sith in galactic history, squares off against four Jedi Masters in his office during the events of Revenge of the Sith. Various visual guides and canon entires distribute accolades to all four swordsmen, the consensus being that they were all "celebrated swordsmen" and among the greatest bladesbeings in history. Yet if one were to gauge strictly the movie, one would likely not conclude as much, given that the movie depicts four Jedi and a Sith Lord with surprisingly slow reactions and acting like, quite frankly, old men banging one another with sticks.

I don't disagree with your premise, but using strict movie interpretations without supplement or corroboration is pointless and asinine.

He did not have the skill to. His son had defeated him. He did not hold back. It says that NOWHERE despite the eternal conflict. No evidence suggests he was holding back.

Canon (specifically, Skywalker himself) disagrees.

During the events of the Courtship of Princess Leia, Skywalker is attacked by a powerful Nightsister by the name of Gethzerion. During the assault, he is overpowered and tortured, where he muses that "this [the torture] is what it would have been like if Vader had tried to kill me."

Skywalker seems to be under the impression that his father never really tried to kill him within the context of a duel.

I doubt that's all. Burning at the bottom of a scolding hot hill with your limbs gone might halter lightsaber speed and maneuverability. Also, why do you continue to mention Palpatine? He's manipulative and is a liar. Am I suppose to believe everything he says? I'm sure that's not all that damaged his physical performance with a lightsaber. Come on.

While Palpatine's statements should arouse suspicion on most topics, his beliefs on Vader's status post-Mustafar were thoughts communicated during Rise of Darth Vader. He was not telling or censoring anything, unless you believe that Palpatine was trying to deceive the reader through manipulating the omniscient narrator.

On the whole of it, your sarcasm, juvenile demands, and own jabs reveal you to be a hypocrite, Forum Ninja, who (when losing a debate) will try to put emphasis on etiquette as misdirection and then report those who fail to cooperate (even though you're acting like a bit of an ass yourself).

That doesn't fly. You're going on ignore and I can guarentee that if this keeps up, I won't be the only one who casts aside your little comments and moves onto the next troll in line.

While Palpatine's statements should arouse suspicion on most topics, his beliefs on Vader's status post-Mustafar were thoughts communicated during Rise of Darth Vader. He was not telling or censoring anything, unless you believe that Palpatine was trying to deceive the reader through manipulating the omniscient narrator.

On the whole of it, your sarcasm, juvenile demands, and own jabs reveal you to be a hypocrite, Forum Ninja, who (when losing a debate) will try to put emphasis on etiquette as misdirection and then report those who fail to cooperate (even though you're acting like a bit of an ass yourself).

That doesn't fly. You're going on ignore and I can guarentee that if this keeps up, I won't be the only one who casts aside your little comments and moves onto the next troll in line. [/B]

Holy crap, this guy is the GREATEST liar ever. He's so good, he even fools the readers.

yeah Palpatine probably didn't really die. He's just floating around, waiting for the Darth Revan+Bane+Ajunta Pall combined talisman which allows him to rule the Earth by controlling the autors of the books. Then he becomes immortal and vader gets pissed in the force, appears in spirit form and destroys palpy with his limitless power.

Red Nemesis, who (when losing a debate) will try to put emphasis on grammar [...] (even though [I'm generally] acting like a bit of an ass yourself).

Maybe I didn't like him because I saw the similarities. Man, do I look that bad when I start struggling?

Worse, because we have high expectations.

Need I remind you of the "Zannah is a smart fighter because she kills Bane" fiasco?

Originally posted by Publius II
Worse, because we have high expectations.

Need I remind you of the "Zannah is a smart fighter because she kills Bane" fiasco?

That was just a bad day. A very bad day. And no you do not need to remind me. At all. I meant, do I look that bad when I go all "GRAMMAR NAZI" (and then usually make an equally stupid mistake) as this guy does.

Gideon spelled "guarantee" wrong. *wins*

Edit: Also, the next troll in line is apparently me.

I demand to be dealt with!

To be fair, Zannah probably is going to kill Bane. The set up at the end of Rule of Two all but sealed that

I realize. I was making fun of his ineptitudemomentary lapse of judgement.

Originally posted by Publius II
I realize. I was making fun of his ineptitudemomentary lapse of judgement.

Jerk.