Vader vs ventress · Star Wars Versus Forum

Forum Ninja Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
[B]No, they don't, any more than Jar'Kai goes 'hand in hand' with Niman. Anakin also, you'll notice, only assumes it against Dooku to fool him, as noted on the ROTS novelization. Shien is derived from Djem So, but Djem So is almost different entirely and that is Anakin's true strength.

No, it isn't almost different entirely. Also, don't change your statement. You said he never used it and he actually used it frequently before changing. He didn't only use it to fool Dooku. Ridiculous.

If by 'cornered and outmanuevered' you mean 'took advantage of him being hemmed in from all sides by skilled Jedi to get him to strike a cortosis sword and was immediately killed afterwards...

That's my whole point. Even before his wounds, he had "unlimited potential" as a Sith Lord. Why did that stop after his wounds? What made him less powerful as a duelist and a Sith Lord?

Well, I suppose losing all four limbs does the trick? He has clearly lost finesse, mobility and cannot perform certain lightsaber maneuvers. Look at the pattern and manner he fights with in the original trilogy and then look at him in the previous trilogy.

And yes, he was taken advantage of. These Jedi are suddenly skilled?

Yes, killed with the force. Not a lightsaber. Do you know why?

Huh, there's a word for this and it's 'dishonest.' Shadday used a CORTOSIS BLADE so Vader's saber would be deactivated whereupon he snapped her neck and even used his severed arm to kill another of the Jedi after tricking him into murdering Bultar Swann.
He 'cornered' and badly losing at the very end when three Jedi masters took advantage of his injuries-from, y'know, fighting numerous masters and knights simultaneously- to begin pelting him with rocks

I understand but my problem is that you made it sound like he owned. He didn't. Also, he did not show extensive maneuverability in Purge like you claim. It's a lie like what you said about Shien.

Ohhh, so Ventress wil be carrying a weapon that renders a lightsaber useless for several minutes, now. I suppose by your logic, Bok the Morgukai is freaking incredible for carrying a gauntlet of Cortosis now.

I included that as a joke. Take this seriously, though:

All of these unknown masters and knights can do this to Vader but a trained Sith Assassin cannot?

Again, there's a word for this and it's 'dishonest.'
Vader gets his hand severed because his saber is useless and he's somewhat distracted by needed to snap Shadday Potkin's neck. He doesn't 'surrender at their mercy,' either, he takes advantage of one of them and gets him to murder another and promptly dispatches him as well.

And? Why should someone of such skill get "somewhat distracted" like that? He was at their mercy at one point. Did you not read the comic? They had opportunities to kill him but they needed him to fulfill their plan.

Mistake? I hope so. Otherwise, you were pretty much just twisting facts.

Wrong. I don't talk shit, I state facts. You've twisted it to suit your debate. You know how it is.

At what point has Vader shown that he will be outmatched by people with manueverability and agility? he kind of compensated for the suit, you'll notice, otherwise anyone with Ataru could've killed him.

Watch the original trilogy. It seems you're missing a few things in these movies.

What you're arguing is preposterous. A fully functional and uninjured Anakin could barely defeat Asajj in combat. How is a less flexible, slower version of him defeat her?

One would think, in the words of Palpatine, the 'Greatest Jedi Killer' would have long compensated.

The words of Palpatine make everything true now, huh? Good to know! The "Greatest Jedi Killer" had trouble putting down his son who had less than a year of Jedi training. I think this MAY have been due to maneuverability. Also, he wasn't holding back. It's BS. Read the novel and the script. He only began to defend his son when Palpatine began to shock him. I know you'll pull that out of your ass next.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
No, it isn't almost different entirely. Also, don't change your statement. You said he never used it and he actually used it frequently before changing. He didn't only use it to fool Dooku. Ridiculous.

In the context I stated it, I meant that it was NOT his main style as your post implied. His main stance was Djem So.
And to paraphrase the ROTS novel: "Dooku realized the Shii-cho and Shien stances were but a ruse. The boy had become a Djem So specialist, as fine as any Dooku had ever seen."

That's my whole point. Even before his wounds, he had "unlimited potential" as a Sith Lord. Why did that stop after his wounds? What made him less powerful as a duelist and a Sith Lord?

According to Palpatine, the mental trauma and self loathing.

Well, I suppose losing all four limbs does the trick? He has clearly lost finesse, mobility and cannot perform certain lightsaber maneuvers.

Such as? And 'lost finesse and mobility?' At what point does he have trouble moving, now?

Look at the pattern and manner he fights with in the original trilogy and then look at him in the previous trilogy.

Look at his fights with any of the numerous beings he turns into tiny flesh colored ribbons as Vader, even when he hasn't even compensated for the suit yet. Notice numerous sources harp on and on about his martial prowess for a reason? Why, exactly, did none of Palpatine's powerful and power hungry servants as Sedriss, Cronal, Jerec and many others simply kill the slow, immobile Vader? Let's think, now.

And yes, he was taken advantage of. These Jedi are suddenly skilled?

Every last one of them was a war veteran, Tsui Choi was apparently considered for the Jedi Council, Ma'Kis was a former Morgukai described as 'unstoppable' in combat...and one of them at least was a survivor of Geonosis and all were good enough to survive Order 66.
Yeah. That says skill

Yes, killed with the force. Not a lightsaber. Do you know why?

Actually, he grabbed her and broke her neck.
Vader didn't use the Force there.

I understand but my problem is that you made it sound like he owned. He didn't. Also, he did not show extensive maneuverability in Purge like you claim. It's a lie like what you said about Shien.

If you're going to be this utterly anal, then yes I was wrong. He had a knowledge of Shien. It was not, however, his main form, or anything close to it.
And yes, while Vader was being hemmed in on all sides by quite a few Jedi, he was not only fending them all off, he'd killed two of them.

I included that as a joke. Take this seriously, though:
All of these unknown masters and knights can do this to Vader but a trained Sith Assassin cannot?

1. Ventress is not a Sith Assassin. She is a Dark Jedi as well as an assassin to boot.
2. One Dark Jedi vs. numerous Jedi masters all at once, one of whom is armed with a Cortosis sword? Unless Ventress has a weapon for the sole purpose of deactivating a saber and a bunch of buddies to take advantage of this, what will she do in the same situation?

And? Why should someone of such skill get "somewhat distracted" like that? He was at their mercy at one point. Did you not read the comic? They had opportunities to kill him but they needed him to fulfill their plan.

I'll say this as you clearly have NEVER READ THE COMIC
He was 'somewhat distracted' because he needed to disarm Shadday and break her neck. He was killing an opponent and had just lost his weapon.
And Vader 'surrendered' only to provoke them to fight amongst themselves

Wrong. I don't talk shit, I state facts. You've twisted it to suit your debate. You know how it is.

Yeah, there was no fact twisting from you at all.
Yeah, bullshit.

Watch the original trilogy. It seems you're missing a few things in these movies.

Question still applies, kiddles.

What you're arguing is preposterous. A fully functional and uninjured Anakin could barely defeat Asajj in combat. How is a less flexible, slower version of him defeat her?

If by 'barely defeat' you mean 'Anakin using the Dark Side utterly crushed her' and this is an Anakin who became skilled enough to defeat DOOKU, someone so far above Asajj's level, trying to compare them is laughable.
Not only did Vader compensate for his damage, but has demonstrated extreme levels of skill, speed and ability that...yes, he could take Asajj

The words of Palpatine make everything true now, huh? Good to know! The "Greatest Jedi Killer" had trouble putting down his son who had less than a year of Jedi training.

Oh, surely this had nothing to do with all the conflict in him and not wanting to hurt his, you know. SON.

I think this MAY have been due to maneuverability. Also, he wasn't holding back. It's BS. Read the novel and the script. He only began to defend his son when Palpatine began to shock him. I know you'll pull that out of your ass next.

Strange how you forget Vader's mind is in utter conflict and Luke even says he feels the conflict in him. And let's not forget Luke's potential is comparable to Anakin's and that by giving in to his rage, he's unleashing a lot against his dad.

And having read the novel and the script? Funny how you get so snappish and whiny all of a sudden

OH, and you THINK it may have been due to maneuverability? Pardon me if I don't give a damn what you think. Prove up or shut up.

As I pointed out, several times, Vader in the EU has demonstrated skill and ability that show he amply compensated for his loss. He wasn't weak, or unskilled in the slightest and if you think he was, you're ignoring all the evidence from the EU that smacks your argument in its ass.

Oh, I trust Palpatine on the matters of assessments of Dark Jedi that work for him, by the by.

Forum Ninja Restricted

I've reported you. I have a reply ready when you decide not to be rude and tell others to "shut up."

When you learn how to debate without allowing your emotions to control you, PM me and I'll be glad to provide a stable rebuttal.

Lightsnake Senior Member

I'm sorry. I must have figured you for something other than a whiny, dishonest troll.

You have my sincerest apologies, the respect I had shown for you initially will end.

Publius II Boss

OMFG...

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm sorry. I must have figured you for something other than a whiny, dishonest troll.
You have my sincerest apologies, the respect I had shown for you initially will end.

So I wasn't crazy.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Publius II
OMFG...

Hm?

Publius II Boss

Internet people frustrate me.

The "Can you handle the Truth?" thread in the Religion forum, "Prime vs. Kong" in the Movie Versus forum, whatever I get into with DS next... it's bad for my health.

kotorfan Fruity Darth

Gosh ppl. Not to be an as$ or offend anyone here, but why do debates always end like this? It gets pretty annoying after awhile. If u loose, its ok. its just a freakin debate. and its common courtesy to be polite and not to tell people to "shut up"

Lightsnake Senior Member

I said 'prove up for shut up.' There's a difference

Publius II Boss

Originally posted by kotorfan
Gosh ppl. Not to be an as$ or offend anyone here, but why do debates always end like this? It gets pretty annoying after awhile. If u loose, its ok. its just a freakin debate. and its common courtesy to be polite and not to tell people to "shut up"

Some of us don't like dealing with the dense, especially when they reward our patience and respect with more... density(?).

kotorfan Fruity Darth

i thought u said Prove up, or Shut up

Publius II Boss

?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I said 'prove up for shut up.' There's a difference

kotorfan Fruity Darth

thats what i mean

or rather thats what I don't get

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
I've reported you. I have a reply ready when you decide not to be rude and tell others to "shut up."
When you learn how to debate without allowing your emotions to control you, PM me and I'll be glad to provide a stable rebuttal.

Your response to Lightsnake at the top of this page was littered with sarcasm and hostile statements and assumptions that he would "pull [statements] out of his ass."

I think I'm going to report you. If Lightsnake, who is a respected and legendary member in these parts, doesn't reserve the right to throw out a casual "shut up" or barb, then you certainly don't.

Publius II Boss

Originally posted by kotorfan
thats what i mean
or rather thats what I don't get

What about it don't you get?

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Publius II
What about it don't you get?

For him, I believe he's unfamiliar with the entire concept of proof.

kotorfan Fruity Darth

"prove up for shut up"

i thought it was prove up or shut up

then he said prove up for shut up and theres a difference, so ya.

He probably meant Prove up or shut up. but its slightly confusing

most likely a typo

Publius II Boss

Obviously a typo...

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Publius II
Yeah, with the rage, which is what he needed to take Ventress, too.

In the raid on the Jedi temple, was he giving in to 'the rage' like he was with Dooku, though? Anakin was ALREADY a monumentally powerful Jedi before his fall

The duel closest to their respective peaks had Skywalker getting humiliated until he snapped.

To be fair here, Faunus, they played a game of cat and mouse. Asajj wasn't dominating them-they had not fully engaged until Anakin heard her threaten to murder Padme

Which isn't remotely the same. This is the fourth time I'm saying this now, LS. Show me any scenario that depicts Vader growing stronger as the fight progresses. Go ahead.

Alright, in that context, no, I'll fully admit I misunderstood. My point is, however, that Vader's command of the force and his own power exceeds Anakin's

Being able to use acquired power is not the same as Anakin being able to draw on his peerless potential.

Yes, I realize

Nothing compensates for that in a duel, LS.

Vader has consistently shown that he had hold his own against numerous opponents, many of whom who should apparently best him in speed and ability. Starkiller needed to rely on tactics to get the better of him rather than sheer saber skill, Vader made short work of a traitorous Emperor's Hand...I mean, seriously, the guy's something.

His only other creation was Maul, so this is a given.

I hope we're not going to argue that Ventress is superior to Maul. Maul, who decimates an entire army of the galaxy's finest killers without a scratch or takes down the Jedi Order's battlemaster...
And Palpatine did create a lot of things. Byss was his personal little laboratory and he did have a passion for alchemy.

This is arguably one of the worst arguments I've ever seen you make, and it also happens to be completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. We're discussing a duel, not the overall merits of each respective character. Again, I refer you to my initial post on the matter:

My point here is, if Ventress was to the level of people like Vader, even in the suit, very likely she wouldn't have been seen as a disposable pawn who Dooku casually ordered SHOT in Obsession.

Such as...?

His battles against Sa Cuis and Sheyvan-both Emperor's Hands, against Trachta's plot to kill him, against the Dark Woman, his striking down Ma'Kis like it was nothing when Ma'Kis was first mentioned, he was called a fusion of the abilities of Morgukai and Jedi and called 'unstoppable,' recognized as a threat enough to put a direct price on his head by Palpatine....and he doesn't do too shabbily against Celeste Morne or her Rakghouls, I've heard. Also, doesn't he kill a few Jedi in Rise of Darth Vader as well?
Vader was consistently sent on life threatening and dangerous missions. He had this habit to come through

When any of them are remotely comparable to Kit Fisto, Obi-wan, or Ventress, you let me know.

They're not. However, I'm saying it speaks to Vader's abilities here. Vader was named by Palpatine as the greatest Jedi killer in history. He mentions Ventress in the same section. As I told Forum Ninja, I put some stock in Palpaitne's assessment of Darksiders working under him

At which point he flees, kills the Jedi with the blade, deactivates most of the other lightsabers, and gets punked to the point that he has to stall by pretending to surrender while the others debate what to do with him. Then, he goes down again at the end when the three surviving Jedi Masters completely overwhelm him with the Force.

Well, they are pelting him with rocks rather viciously, that's a bit difficult to defend from, when one enemy is a council level master assisted by two other masters and Vader is still fresh in the suit. When it came to a saber, however? Without Shadday having prepared the Cortosis Blade, it's doubtful Vader would've been in that trouble.

Again, not his best showing. His mission to Kashyyyk in RoDV is much better, simply because he actually wins, and under his own power.

I'm afraid my experience of RoDV is limited to what I've searched briefly. I do know he kills several Jedi there, but I was wary of using it as a source

Hurray for relevance.
You're indulging yourself in kotor3 and Truculent-class filler.

I'm merely indicating Vader's prowess and ability there

Very few of whom were comparable duelists to Ventress, and the two that were - Starkiller and Maul - were basically too much for him to handle. The former was simply better than him in every way, and the latter overwhelmed him with, you guessed it, Jar'Kai.

Maul outclasses Ventress in every way, it's not even a contest there. Starkiller does as well. And for Starkiller, from the game, Vader was a pretty tough opponent and Starkiller wins by distracting him with a thrown pillar and then blasting him when he moves to throw it aside, then seizing advantage. He doesn't best him in straight up saber combat.
And Maul is another example of environment coming into play, plus skill. Maul's a beast with a saber and in the end, Vader does still win. Unconventionally, yes.

Granted. But not nearly enough to compensate fully for what he lost at Mustafar.

Enough to make sure Ventress, by virtue of being maneuverable and fast won't overwhelm him there. He's most certainly more skilled than she is as a fighter, he's remarkably talented, he's demonstrated some exemplary speed and power at times...he's a monster

Go find where I said it would be "easy."

That might've been my irritation from Forum Ninja

I won't tolerate you misconstruing my argument. This will probably be my last post on the matter, because the idea of a relatively obscure and unpopular character being good seems like a difficult concept for you to grasp.

Faunus, come off it, there's a difference between me not thinking Ventress is good-because I most definitely think she is. The fact she took on three Jedi at once and it took MACE WINDU to chase her off, that she killed two masters together, that she's consistently given Obi-wan a good fight, nevermind what she's shown in Clone Wars- and me not thinking she can best Vader in a sword duel.

Don't misconstrue my argument, either. I dislike Ventress's character, but she's a talent for certain. I imply do not think she would take Vader in a saber fight.