Punisher vs Wolverine, Beast and Cyclops

Originally posted by Raoul
even if cap IS better than scott, that's not saying much, as the argument could be made that cap is the best tactician in marvel, and cyclops is only second to him.

Actually it could be argued that hes the third best Punisher first, Cap second and Cyclops third. Both Cyke and Cap are better leaders but theres proof that Pun is tactically better than Cap.

It is saying much because if he can gun down Cap with very little prep hes gunning down cyclops with three weeks and much more resources.

Yeah and im going to say that Cap is better than Cyke considering in Secret Wars Cap was the leader of the all heroes in the presence of Cyke. Also in the Infinity Gauntlet Cap was second in command after Warlock and as far as I can remember this is the same in The Infinity War as well.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It is saying much because if he can gun down Cap with very little prep hes gunning down cyclops with three weeks and much more resources.

So by your logic, if I managed to snipe an unarmed Navy Seal while I was at a vantage point then I'm a better tactician than him?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Actually it could be argued that hes the third best Punisher first, Cap second and Cyclops third. Both Cyke and Cap are better leaders but theres proof that Pun is tactically better than Cap.

It is saying much because if he can gun down Cap with very little prep hes gunning down cyclops with three weeks and much more resources.

Yeah and im going to say that Cap is better than Cyke considering in Secret Wars Cap was the leader of the all heroes in the presence of Cyke. Also in the Infinity Gauntlet Cap was second in command after Warlock and as far as I can remember this is the same in The Infinity War as well.

punisher? seriously?

god, your wankery knows no bounds sometimes. seriously.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Actually it could be argued that hes the third best Punisher first, Cap second and Cyclops third. Both Cyke and Cap are better leaders but theres proof that Pun is tactically better than Cap.

It is saying much because if he can gun down Cap with very little prep hes gunning down cyclops with three weeks and much more resources.

Yeah and im going to say that Cap is better than Cyke considering in Secret Wars Cap was the leader of the all heroes in the presence of Cyke. Also in the Infinity Gauntlet Cap was second in command after Warlock and as far as I can remember this is the same in The Infinity War as well.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
His abilities have always been written as peak human and a bit short of superhuman.

So what? Namor has been listed as having below class 100 strength for years. Hes been stated on panel as being able to run just under 60 mph and has other superhuman feats. That isnt peak human thats enhanced.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Thing is, all his abilities are at this point, not just strength. I collected Cap comics for close to 8 years, fyi. So, I know a bit about him, nothing I've read showed him to be any stronger than the strongest normal human.

Cap was doing with reps with 1100 lbs and did gymnastics staright afterwards and wasnt even tired. Hes lifted Big Bertha who weighs just 800lbs ran with her and thrown her. Hes made steel doors buckle while wounded...etc.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

He only knows to hit where it hurts and to outsmart and outskill his opponents. Unless you can post scans of him lifting cars and speedblitzing opponents using superspeed, you need to get "for real" yourself. And what does Cap's abilities have relevance in this thread anyway??

I dont need to show scans of him lifting cars he doesnt need to be thats strong to hurt people with superhuman strength.

His abilities are relevant because hes tactically smarter than Cyke and could probaly kick at least Beats arse.

Cap has dodged speedsters and kicked Quicksilver in the face.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

You claim because Cap was so good, he shoulda been able to avoid getting sniped when he knew he was about to get sniped. Clearly he wasn't.

Exactly its not because Pun was highly skilled its because Cap was crap. Obvoulsy if it was that easy to snipe him everybody would be doing it. facepalm

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

No, they're superior becuase they're extremely well trained mutants with powers which have shown to be very effective against gun totting opponents. And there's 3 of them.

Im sorry but most of your logic fails. First of all both Captain America and Falcon are very effective against guns. Pun isnt any gun toting punk. Eventhough there were two of them Winter Solider didnt have three weeks prep, I keep repeating this shit other and over again.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Again, you seem to assume that since he's been able to do it to some people, then everyone has no chance of being able to detect him. Like I said, this is a forum battle, we use abilities plus circumstances to determine the winner. He does have tracking skills of his own and can prolly disrupt Wolvie's tracking. I'll give you that. But you also seem to assume that they'll stride into an open field like lemmings where there's a good vantage point so that they'd get sniped.

Er no but if Cap cant stop himself from getting sniped and DD and his crew cant hide from Pun theres a decent chance at least one of them is getting sniped.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

The circumstances on how the Team will approach their hunt of the Punisher will have that possibility already considered. It is easy to avoid sniper fire as long as you play it smart and keep yourself in areas with little to no vantage points and to keep moving in and out of cover. If you allow yourself to get caught in open ground, then it doesn't matter how tactically smart you are, you're doomed.

Yeah and Cap and Falcon couldnt hdie from Winter Solider. Winter Solider didnt have 3 weeks prep and have loads of resources. You keep saying they will the facts dont show that.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Why do you keep stating "Cuz he's beat this people so he WINS!". Everyone has low and high showings. While we do base arguments on that sometimes, we don't always go with that. Otherwise, we can all argue that squirrel girl can destroy the Silver Surfer. And that Captain America can kick Firelord's butt cuz he beat Spiderman.

I keep saying he beats these people so he wins? What sort of logic is that, so im im supposed to say give examples where hes loses?

Again eveytime I give good examples you keep telling me its a low showing, or that they jobbed thats not debating its bias.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

This is also clearly one of those debates where you NEED to state HOW he's going to win so that we can argue about if it's possible for that to come about. State the HOW and not "Cuz he beat X", otherwise forfeit the argument.

If you think that Castle is gonna snipe Cyc and then stalk beast and wolvie one by one then you're way is incredibly unlikely.

I could go into more detail but at this point I cant be bothered if you keep saying downplaying peoples feats.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

One win s'all he deserves. Well, if this thread was about Punisher trying to hide from them, it might. But he'd have to engage them sooner or later or this thread is pointless.

And damn, you need to drink less coffee. Calm the hell down buddy. Not trying to crap on your hero or anything.

Its not my fault mate. You're the one who keep trying to downplay feats. You may not think you're crapping on my character but thats what you're doing by stating that everybody jobs to him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Actually it could be argued that hes the third best Punisher first, Cap second and Cyclops third. Both Cyke and Cap are better leaders but theres proof that Pun is tactically better than Cap.

It is saying much because if he can gun down Cap with very little prep hes gunning down cyclops with three weeks and much more resources.

Yeah and im going to say that Cap is better than Cyke considering in Secret Wars Cap was the leader of the all heroes in the presence of Cyke. Also in the Infinity Gauntlet Cap was second in command after Warlock and as far as I can remember this is the same in The Infinity War as well.

Originally posted by Raoul
punisher? seriously?

god, your wankery knows no bounds sometimes. seriously.

No not really you just like to ignore evidence. Heres the proof.

1. Cap decided to use Punishers plan of attack instead of his own in The civil war. Obvoulsy thats irrelavnat and im kaing shit up.
2. He escaped capture from an FBI agent and Cap almost figured out what he was doing but not quick enough.
3. Couldnt stop himself from being sniped by Pun.
4. Dr Doom has commented on how imnpressive Pun strategy is a clone

Ok if you think thats wankery fine.

Hell you were talking nonsense in that over thread so dont tell me anything about wankery you hypocrite.

Originally posted by Mindset
You could have at least put Punisher 2nd, make yourself not look like a fanboy

Not when I have proof, I also said it could be argued.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No not really you just like to ignore evidence. Heres the proof.

1. Cap decided to use Punishers plan of attack instead of his own in The civil war. Obvoulsy thats irrelavnat and im kaing shit up.
2. He escaped capture from an FBI agent and Cap almost figured out what he was doing but not quick enough.
3. Couldnt stop himself from being sniped by Pun.
4. Dr Doom has commented on how imnpressive Pun strategy is a clone

Ok if you think thats wankery fine.

Hell you were talking nonsense in that over thread so dont tell me anything about wankery you hypocrite.

Btw only one of those shows a direct relation between Cap's skills and Punisher's, and that doesn't really show who is overall superior to the other.

I don't remember Civil War, can you post the scans?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So what? Namor has been listed as having below class 100 strength for years. Hes been stated on panel as being able to run just under 60 mph and has other superhuman feats. That isnt peak human thats enhanced.

Cap was doing with reps with 1100 lbs and did gymnastics staright afterwards and wasnt even tired. Hes lifted Big Bertha who weighs just 800lbs ran with her and thrown her. Hes made steel doors buckle while wounded...etc.

I dont need to show scans of him lifting cars he doesnt need to be thats strong to hurt people with superhuman strength.

His abilities are relevant because hes tactically smarter than Cyke and could probaly kick at least Beats arse.

Cap has dodged speedsters and kicked Quicksilver in the face.

Exactly its not because Pun was highly skilled its because Cap was crap. Obvoulsy if it was that easy to snipe him everybody would be doing it. facepalm

Im sorry but most of your logic fails. First of all both Captain America and Falcon are very effective against guns. Pun isnt any gun toting punk. Eventhough there were two of them Winter Solider didnt have three weeks prep, I keep repeating this shit other and over again.

Er no but if Cap cant stop himself from getting sniped and DD and his crew cant hide from Pun theres a decent chance at least one of them is getting sniped.

Yeah and Cap and Falcon couldnt hdie from Winter Solider. Winter Solider didnt have 3 weeks prep and have loads of resources. You keep saying they will the facts dont show that.

I keep saying he beats these people so he wins? What sort of logic is that, so im im supposed to say give examples where hes loses?

Again eveytime I give good examples you keep telling me its a low showing, or that they jobbed thats not debating its bias.

I could go into more detail but at this point I cant be bothered if you keep saying downplaying peoples feats.

Its not my fault mate. You're the one who keep trying to downplay feats. You may not think you're crapping on my character but thats what you're doing by stating that everybody jobs to him.

Ok, last post of the day, need to sleep.

Your post is yet more "he beat this guy so can beat these 3". Nothing fresh cept to state that if Cap can be sniped, so can these guys. You're stuck on they WHY yet avoid the HOW's.

If you've read my post, then you'll know that I've challenged you to paint a scenario where you think it could be written how Frank can take down 3 of the most experienced X-men in a 3-on-1 fight.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No not really you just like to ignore evidence. Heres the proof.

1. Cap decided to use Punishers plan of attack instead of his own in The civil war. Obvoulsy thats irrelavnat and im kaing shit up.
2. He escaped capture from an FBI agent and Cap almost figured out what he was doing but not quick enough.
3. Couldnt stop himself from being sniped by Pun.
4. Dr Doom has commented on how imnpressive Pun strategy is a clone

Ok if you think thats wankery fine.

Hell you were talking nonsense in that over thread so dont tell me anything about wankery you hypocrite.

Not when I have proof, I also said it could be argued.

CONTEXT.

1. Civil War was an extreme circumstance. Frank Castle fights dirty. Cap needed someone who would fight dirty. Then Cap, iirc, knocked Frank out in one shot. His tactical awareness didn't do him any good there, did it?
2. How does that make Punisher a better tactician? He came up with an escape plan. Good for him. What, Cap couldnt do the same?
3. I didn't realise Cap had super senses.
4. Which one of them was a clone?

What other thread?

Originally posted by Mindset
i laffed

You can dont mean your right.

Originally posted by Mindset

Btw only one of those shows a direct relation between Cap's skills and Punisher's, and that doesn't really show who is overall superior to the other.

Um what? Escaping capture from Cap and FBI agent shows Punishers smarts. Dr Doom complementing Punisher on hsi smarts shows hes up there with the best.

Originally posted by Mindset

I don't remember Civil War, can you post the scans?

There you go. 😐

Franks so good at prep that Cap decides to go with Franks plan instead of his own. Note how the plan does not just involve beating people up but infiiltration and stealing information.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You can dont mean your right.

Um what? Escaping capture from Cap and FBI agent shows Punishers smarts. Dr Doom complementing Punisher on hsi smarts shows hes up there with the best.

There you go. 😐

Franks so good at prep that Cap decides to go with Franks plan instead of his own. Note how the plan does not just involve beating people up but infiiltration and stealing information.

I didn't say escaping capture from Cap and the FBI didn't show Punisher was smart, I said it doesn't show a direct relationship between Cap's prep ability and Frank's.

Unless Doom said Frank was better than Cap that has nothing to do with what I said.

Where's the scan where Cap decides Frank's plan is better? That's not it.

Originally posted by Raoul
CONTEXT.

1. Civil War was an extreme circumstance. Frank Castle fights dirty. Cap needed someone who would fight dirty.

Obvoulsy you've forgotten that Captain America has been extreme cirumstances before and has come up with a plan. In fact Cap has been in more extreme cirumstances and has more experience fighting superhumans than Punisher does, so no really that logic doesnt work.

In fact Secret Wars was a more extreme cirumstance than the Civil War.

Originally posted by Raoul

Then Cap, iirc, knocked Frank out in one shot. His tactical awareness didn't do him any good there, did it?

WRONG. Read the comic again Punisher allowed him to beat him and didnt fight back.

Originally posted by Raoul

2. How does that make Punisher a better tactician? He came up with an escape plan. Good for him. What, Cap couldnt do the same?

The point is that Punisher had to use his brains to escape and cap didnt figure out in time

Originally posted by Raoul

3. I didn't realise Cap had super senses.

Well there pretty good especially since he actually knew that there was a sniper about.

Originally posted by Raoul

4. Which one of them was a clone?

Not the one who complemented him. 😛 Hell even the other one has managed to kidnap Franklin Richards wanted to hire Pun. Obvously Pun isnt up there with the best.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Obvoulsy you've forgotten that Captain America has been extreme cirumstances before and has come up with a plan. In fact Cap has been in more extreme cirumstances and has more experience fighting superhumans than Punisher does, so no really that logic doesnt work.

In fact Secret Wars was a more extreme cirumstance than the Civil War.

it was also unlike anything cap had ever done before. he knew that he was fighting heroes. he needed to think like a villain to win.

so no, i didn't forget.

WRONG. Read the comic again Punisher allowed him to beat him and didnt fight back.

actually, no, you're wrong. the not fighting back came later.

The point is that Punisher had to use his brains to escape and cap didnt figure out in time

which does absolutely nothing to indicate tactical superiority.

Well there pretty good especially since he actually knew that there was a sniper about.

what instance is this?

also, what thread? if you're going to call me a hypocrite, at least have the balls to explain yourself.

Originally posted by Mindset

I didn't say escaping capture from Cap and the FBI didn't show Punisher was smart, I said it doesn't show a direct relationship between Cap's prep ability and Frank's.

I m not sure what you're getting at but obvoulsy if it shows hes smart that can be applied to prep and in that cirumstance he escaped before Cap could figure it out.

Originally posted by Mindset

Unless Doom said Frank was better than Cap that has nothing to do with what I said.

My point is that if Doom complements you, you are up there with the best. You know Doom doesnt complement people lightly.

Originally posted by Mindset

Where's the scan where Cap decides Frank's plan is better? That's not it.

Yeah it is because obvoulsy Cap would have had a plan.

Originally posted by Mindset
i laffed

By this point, I stopped laughing and feel only pitty, to be honest.

Originally posted by Raoul
it was also unlike anything cap had ever done before. he knew that he was fighting heroes. he needed to think like a villain to win.

so no, i didn't forget.

No he didnt need to fight like a villain. Breaking into and infiltrating bases doesnt mean you have to think like a villain. Beating Up SHIELD agents doesnt mean you need to think like a villain you just need to smart. The fact he was fighting superheros in fact indcates logically he has to fight less like a villain.

Originally posted by Raoul

actually, no, you're wrong. the not fighting back came later.

No you're still wrong he wasnt trying to fight back and he wasnt one-shotted.

Originally posted by Raoul

which does absolutely nothing to indicate tactical superiority.

Yeah you're right him coming up with a plan on the fly which Cap couldnt figure out in time isnt anything that could be applied to 3 weeks prep. Hell he can outsmart Cap on the fly....3 weeks...not a chance.

Earlier on you were stating that Punisher not seeing Cap punch him in the face was an indication of lack of tactical awareness, which is more to do with h2h. Hypocrisy, a perfect example of you dictating what the rules are and then changing them to suit you. I have an example of Pun actually using his brain that doesnt count but Punisher getting punched in the face is lack of tactical awarness.

Originally posted by Raoul

what instance is this?

Captain Americe and Punisher Blood and Glory issue 1. Cap doesnt have super senses persay (well in some circumstances), but he was able to know there was a sniper about.

Originally posted by Raoul

also, what thread? if you're going to call me a hypocrite, at least have the balls to explain yourself.

Ok let me make something clear to you. If I didnt mention what thread its not because im somehow afraid of you its because im having to debate with three people at once and I dont want to go off on a tangent I just brought it up because im pissed.

Dont EVAH think im afraid of you. Anyway its the ethnic aliens thread you were talking some bs about there being more extremely different looking and acting aliens in comics these days. Hell to be quite honest you sound like a nerd to me and under normal circumstances I wouldnt even really be on comic forums...but oh well. Balls my arse.

Ahh shit too late to edit my post, that was a little too heated. 🙁

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ahh shit too late to edit my post, that was a little too heated. 🙁

Here, my treat.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No he didnt need to fight like a villain. Breaking into and infiltrating bases doesnt mean you have to think like a villain. Beating Up SHIELD agents doesnt mean you need to think like a villain you just need to smart. The fact he was fighting superheros in fact indcates logically he has to fight less like a villain.

No you're still wrong he wasnt trying to fight back and he wasnt one-shotted.

Yeah you're right him coming up with a plan on the fly which Cap couldnt figure out in time isnt anything that could be applied to 3 weeks prep. Hell he can outsmart Cap on the fly....3 weeks...not a chance.

Earlier on you were stating that Punisher not seeing Cap punch him in the face was an indication of lack of tactical awareness, which is more to do with h2h. Hypocrisy, a perfect example of you dictating what the rules are and then changing them to suit you. I have an example of Pun actually using his brain that doesnt count but Punisher getting punched in the face is lack of tactical awarness.

Captain Americe and Punisher Blood and Glory issue 1. Cap doesnt have super senses persay (well in some circumstances), but he was able to know there was a sniper about.

Ok let me make something clear to you. If I didnt mention what thread its not because im somehow afraid of you its because im having to debate with three people at once and I dont want to go off on a tangent I just brought it up because im pissed.

Dont EVAH think im afraid of you. Anyway its the ethnic aliens thread you were talking some bs about there being more extremely different looking and acting aliens in comics these days. Hell to be quite honest you sound like a nerd to me and under normal circumstances I wouldnt even really be on comic forums...but oh well. Balls my arse.

badawe