Barriss Offee's Gauntlet!

Originally posted by Col. Valerian ]Not true. Djem So might be suited to defeat Makashi, but the outcome of a duel between a Makashi user and a Djem So user does not solely depend on each individuals' lightsaber form. It depends on which combatant is the better swordsman. Period. If you're a Makashi user but you are the more skilled fighter in terms of bladework, then you will win against a Djem So user. You might struggle against a form that is designed to counter your own, but in the end you're going to win simply because you are superior.

It is wrong to assume that one style will always defeat the other without taking into account the individual prowess and skill of each combatant, and it is certainly false and unfair to credit Skywalker's definite victory over Dooku only to his use of Djem So. He defeated him because he had become the superior fighter, not because he utilized Djem So.

You aren't listening. I am saying that in order to defeat someone like Dooku with Djem So you have to be at least on his level. I am not saying any old swordfighter with Djem So can defeat a Makashi master. I am saying that a master of Djem So will defeat a master of Makashi everytime.

-snip-

Force defenses Force defenses. Those are his physical defenses. Anakin has not once ever successfully force pushed Dooku. Dooku on the other hand has shown the ability to rag doll Skywalker, and humiliate him with the force multiple times.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes I am not saying that. What I am saying is that a Makashi master will fall to a Djem So master of equal skill almost every time.

You aren't listening. I am saying that in order to defeat someone like Dooku with Djem So you have to be at least on his level. I am not saying any old swordfighter with Djem So can defeat a Makashi master. I am saying that a master of Djem So will defeat a master of Makashi everytime.

Force defenses [B]Force defenses. Those are his physical defenses. Anakin has not once ever successfully force pushed Dooku. Dooku on the other hand has shown the ability to rag doll Skywalker, and humiliate him with the force multiple times. [/B]

I still disagree with those claims, but if that's your belief, fair enough.

And yes, I agree that Dooku is RotS Anakin's superior in terms of Force mastery. In terms of skill with a lightsaber, it's a different story even before RotS.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So we just ignoring the fight before Dooku replenished himself and Anakin got fully enraged?

Yes, because all that matters is that Dooku was fully replenished and Anakin still owned him, whereas he struggled against Barriss.

You need to accept the fight that was given; Barriss did way better against Anakin than Dooku did. There was no holding back with Barriss, she's just better in pure sabers than Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We ignoring that Dooku did humiliate Kenobi and Skywalker together at one point?

Oh, so because he kicked Anakin, that means he humiliated him? If only you would use this same logic with Kenobi's duels against Grievous. 🙄

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also you need to stop judging fights based on how long they last. It's more important that Dooku came close to defeating Anakin before he lost.

When did he almost defeat Anakin? If a kick = almost defeating someone, then why don't you give Ventress and Grievous any credit, considering that they consistently ragdoll or KO Obi Wan with kicks and such?

Also, you're the one who seems to judge fights based on how long they are. You suggested that Sidious struggled against Maul and Savage just because he didn't blitz them in seconds. The only thing I suggested is: that clashing blades with someone for a little over 20 seconds does not suggest parity, especially if one of them is not trying to kill the other.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin shruuged off Dooku's Force attacks. I don't see how it made much difference to the Saber fight.

Because most of those force attacks were attempts to distract Anakin and to keep Anakin away from him (throwing silverware, and using chairs to block Anakins saber attacks), or to get Anakin off of him (lightning attack). Barriss didn't need to use the force as offensively, because her saber skills were sufficient.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yes Barriss also used the Force. So both fights were All-Out's.

She used one force push on Anakin. I would hardly compare that to Dooku using TK and lightning throughout majority of the duel. Most of Anakin's struggle was from Barriss' saber skills, which should definitely put her on par with Dooku in sabers, or perhaps above him.

It's so easy debating with you, DP. All I have to do is use your own horrible logic against you, and watch you trip over your double standards. lol

@Arhael

Also, the reason why Anakin put up better fight against Dooku than her is quite simple. Anakin in both cases was far more angry at Dooku, which made him much stronger than usual.[/B]

Speculation much. Anakin was angry at both of them, and you're in no position to determine who he was angrier at. Facts are facts, and Barriss put up a better saber fight than Dooku. That's how it was shown, and that's how it is. You can speculate all you want, but you have no proof.

As for your illogical argument that someone not trying to kill doesn't mean that they are holding back, I already addressed in the Maul brothers vs. Bane thread on page 17. To quote myself:

"when one isn't trying to kill, they hold back. You said you practiced sword fighting, and that it's easier to aim for the hands and feet. Well IDK, I don't know about sword fighting, but I do know when you aim at only particular area's, your chances of landing a blow that will end the fight, will be a lot less, no matter how easier the specific target is compared to the rest. You're still limiting yourself."

^ You can argue against it all you want, but when you're not trying to kill someone, you limit your areas of target, and you would also likely limit your aggression and speed as to not accidently kill them. This is just common sense.

Well said. Barriss visually performed on par with the elites.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, because all that matters is that Dooku was fully replenished and Anakin still owned him, whereas he struggled against Barriss.

What? Firstly that was a more powerful Anakin.

Secondly Dooku almost defeated him before he lost.

Anakin was clearly superior to Barriss in every way throughout the fight.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You need to accept the fight that was given; Barriss did way better against Anakin than Dooku did. There was no holding back with Barriss, she's just better in pure sabers than Dooku.

Oh I'm perfectly happy accepting the fight that was given. I just don't see where Barriss almost defeated Skywalker the way Dooku did.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, so because he kicked Anakin, that means he humiliated him? If only you would use this same logic with Kenobi's duels against Grievous. 🙄

Lol Anakin was slammed against the wall half way across the room and seemed knocked half senselss, on his ass while Dooku was taking his time disposing of Obi-Wan for like 10 seconds.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When did he almost defeat Anakin? If a kick = almost defeating someone, then why don't you give Ventress and Grievous any credit, considering that they consistently ragdoll or KO Obi Wan with kicks and such?

Ventress gets credit for that. Grievous's kicks have never been so deadly. It's hard to give him credit when he consistently shits his pants and runs from Kenobi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, you're the one who seems to judge fights based on how long they are. You suggested that Sidious struggled against Maul and Savage just because he didn't blitz them in seconds. The only thing I suggested is: that clashing blades with someone for a little over 20 seconds does not suggest parity, especially if one of them is not trying to kill the other.

No I judge their Saber fight by how it went. Sidious resorted to force attacks to defeat the brothers. He never Saber stomped the 2 of them combined.

A rage enhanced Maul showed parity with Sidious in Sabers (for a second time in his life mind you) based on how the fight went. They were going back and forth, both landed 1 kick each. Both parrying each others blows with equal skill and speed.

But Sidious was still stronger which is why he overpowered him in the Saber lock.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Because most of those force attacks were attempts to distract Anakin and to keep Anakin away from him (throwing silverware, and using chairs to block Anakins saber attacks), or to get Anakin off of him (lightning attack). Barriss didn't need to use the force as offensively, because her saber skills were sufficient.

No he was fencing one handed and keeping his other hand free for force attacks. The attacks were meant to put Skywalker out of commission. But were not effective in doing that.

His FL+TK gave him the edge in the end.

But the Saber fight was pretty even steven until Anakin was able to kick Dooku over the steps.

I don't see how Barriss's performance compared to that. She posed a challenge. That's it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's so easy debating with you, DP. All I have to do is use your own horrible logic against you, and watch you trip over your double standards. lol

LOL Except my own logic isn't relevant here at all.

Face it your annoyed about me and Arhael using YOUR OWN logic against you.

You claimed Fisto =/> Kenobi based on his performance against Grievous. You spent pages and pages claiming that fight was undeniable proof of this.

But then when it comes to comparing Kenobi's and Sidious's Saber performance against The Exact same Opponents using the Exact same weapons, then you resort to sarcasm about how stupid that logic is.

If you want to use the more reasonable way of judging combatants, i.e. High end and Consistent feats, Environment and circumstances of the fight, then so the same for Kenobi vs Fisto threads.

Make up your mind how you want to debate instead of changing your mind whenever it suits you. And resorting to mocking and sarcasm when your own logic is used against you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? Firstly that was a more powerful Anakin.

Says who? And by how much? I need a quote please?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Secondly Dooku almost defeated him before he lost.

Almost defeated him when? Just because he kicked him to the ground?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I just don't see where Barriss almost defeated Skywalker the way Dooku did.

An angry Anakin battered Dooku's defense in no time. An angry Anakin struggled to do the same with Barriss. He needed his superior force powers against Barriss, whereas he just owned Dooku with his saber skills alone.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol Anakin was slammed against the wall half way across the room and seemed knocked half senselss, on his ass while Dooku was taking his time disposing of Obi-Wan for like 10 seconds.

I'll recheck the fight, but I think you're exaggerating a bit. I don't remember Dooku taking his time, and I don't remember it being 10 seconds. But that besides the point; Anakin still owned Dooku when he got serious and angry. All he had to do, was decide to win, and he did. That's not what happened with Barriss, now did it?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ventress gets credit for that. Grievous's kicks have never been so deadly. It's hard to give him credit when he consistently shits his pants and runs from Kenobi.

lmao, Kenobi has just recently ran from Grievous during their last fight, which took place this season. Not to mention the other times Grievous had Kenobi on the defensive and on the retreat, such as their duel in that factory when Grievous was cutting up those boxes and chasing after Kenobi. You have very selective memory with Kenobi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No I judge their Saber fight by how it went. Sidious resorted to force attacks to defeat the brothers. He never Saber stomped the 2 of them combined.

Just like Anakin resorted to the force to defeat Barriss, right? The difference is, Sidious actually defeated the brothers with his sabers, and he was tooling them combined. He was casually evading and blocking their blows, while landing his own physical attacks. Their 2 on 1 saber duel at the bottom of the palace was very brief before Sidious put Savage on his ass.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
A rage enhanced Maul showed parity with Sidious in Sabers (for a second time in his life mind you) based on how the fight went. They were going back and forth, both landed 1 kick each. Both parrying each others blows with equal skill and speed.

Again, clashing blades with someone who is not trying to kill you, does not suggest parity. Sidious didn't plan on killing Maul. He only wanted to disarm him, and it took him a little over 20 seconds to do it. If a kick suggests parity, then I guess Grievous must be equal to Ventress and Kenobi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No he was fencing one handed and keeping his other hand free for force attacks. The attacks were meant to put Skywalker out of commission. But were not effective in doing that.

Barriss didn't need to rely on the force, as her saber skills were sufficient. Dooku's force attacks clearly did make a difference, as Anakin was clearly struggling when Dooku was throwing stuff at him and using chairs to keep him away. It helped Dooku a lot in keeping Anakin away.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
His FL+TK gave him the edge in the end.

I agree. But in pure sabers, Barriss did just as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But the Saber fight was pretty even steven until Anakin was able to kick Dooku over the steps.

Dooku would have lost if it weren't for his force powers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't see how Barriss's performance compared to that. She posed a challenge. That's it.

Because she did just as well against Anakin in pure sabers. Dooku needed the force to come out on top, whereas Anakin was the one who needed the force against Barriss.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Face it your annoyed about me and Arhael using YOUR OWN logic against you.

No, no. You haven't used my own logic against me. You can't even grasp it. Not to sound cocky, but to compare my logic with the logic the two of you have been using, is an outright insult. I do not claim to be one of the smartest here, but I'm not that bad.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You claimed Fisto =/> Kenobi based on his performance against Grievous. You spent pages and pages claiming that fight was undeniable proof of this.

It took Kenobi several fights of consistent struggle against Grievous just to finally get it right. It took Fisto one shot against Grievous, and he tooled Grievous quite casually, and was even seemingly toyful with Grievous. Based on that, it's silly to assume Kenobi is much better than Kit, unless we are to assume that Kenobi held back all those times and purposely put himself in risky situations and purposely gets ragdolled and floored by Grievous on a consistent basis. You're trying to assume Kenobi is better than Kit, based on fights Kenobi's had against opponents whom Fisto has never even faced. The only other common opponent Kit and Kenobi has faced, was Ventress. And even based on their performances against Ventress, still does not suggest Kenobi is much better than Fisto. While Kenobi may have gotten the best of Ventress a couple of times, whereas Kit hasn't, Obi Wan has also beened owned by Ventress a lot worse than Fisto has. Hell, Obi Wan's last fight against Ventress, he even had Anakin's help and was humiliated by her a lot worse than Fisto's one time defeat by her.

What don't you get about that?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But then when it comes to comparing Kenobi's and Sidious's Saber performance against The Exact same Opponents using the Exact same weapons, then you resort to sarcasm about how stupid that logic is.

Because Sidious never struggled against the brothers. He wasn't even trying to kill one of them. He was far more relaxed when facing them than Obi Wan was, and his grins & smiles, and Filoni's statement seem to suggest that Sidious didn't find them a threat to him at all combat-wise. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Sidious was putting his all in that fight. And Sidious, at other times, has displayed speed that is far beyond what the brothers can handle. And I don't see Maul's speed as being far beyond the likes of the celebrated swordsmaster that Sidious did blitze, when he couldn't even blitz a non force user. Sidious casually walked all over Maul and Opress. In comparison, Kenobi has been defeated by both of the brothers on other occasions, and consistently struggles against the likes of Grievous and Ventress, so their is no reason to believe that his fight against the brothers came as easily for him as it did for Sidious. If anything, there is a lot to suggest that the brothers were actually holding back against Kenobi, considering Maul's confirmation in "The Lawless" that he didn't plan on killing Kenobi, and the fact that Maul could have easily ended that fight whenever he wanted, considering how he ragdolled and barried Kenobi right after Savage's arm was severed. In short: Sidious would be able to replicate his raping of the brothers again and again, with ease. But there is nothing to suggest Kenobi can replicate his victory again and again, unless Maul and Savage just suck.

Comparing Sidious's performance against the same opponents whom Kenobi has faced to comparing Kenobi's performance against the same opponent who Fisto has faced, is not using my logic against me. Kenobi consistently struggles against Grievous, whereas Fisto handed him his ass the very first try. On the otherhand, Sidious defeated both of the brothers quite casually, whereas Kenobi, fighting for his life, managed to fight off both brothers, who were only wanting to restrain him, but has also been defeated by both of the brothers individually on other occasions. There is no comparison between Kenobi and Sidious in sabers. If Kenobi was even close to Sidious in sabers, then he shouldn't have a hard time against Grievous at all.

As I said before, I'm not good at getting my point across at all. I have a hard time at putting my arguments in proper words. But I'm just not seeing how you and Arhael are not understanding. lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Make up your mind how you want to debate instead of changing your mind whenever it suits you. And resorting to mocking and sarcasm when your own logic is used against you.

I use the same logic for any character I argue about, or at least I try. It's just hard to get anything across to you and Arhael. I don't know if you guys aren't catching on, or if you guys are just being intentionally dense and arguing for the sake of arguing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Says who? And by how much? I need a quote please?

ROTS novel states he's continually getting stronger. Plus we know as a fact how much more powerful he's become from AOTC to ROTS.

What's the point in even arguing this point. ROTS was Anakin at his peak.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Almost defeated him when? Just because he kicked him to the ground?

LOL He was just lying there on the ground able to do nothing while he watched Dooku dispose of Obi-Wan!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
An angry Anakin battered Dooku's defense in no time. An angry Anakin struggled to do the same with Barriss. He needed his superior force powers against Barriss, whereas he just owned Dooku with his saber skills alone.

Urm no according to the script and the novel Anakin was already Angry at the point when Dooku kick slammed him. He just wasn't using his "Full Rage."

If you want to try and prove that Anakin used his "Full Rage" against Barriss your welcome to give it a shot.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'll recheck the fight, but I think you're exaggerating a bit. I don't remember Dooku taking his time, and I don't remember it being 10 seconds. But that besides the point; Anakin still owned Dooku when he got serious and angry. All he had to do, was decide to win, and he did. That's not what happened with Barriss, now did it?

LOL Here check it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmIkpRkgaZk

It's worse than I thought. More than 10 seconds even:

He gets kicked at 1:41. Anakin doesn't get back up to fight until 1:54. And he's literally not able to do anything except watch Obi-Wan get battered.

Again according to the script and novel he was serious and angry before Obi-Wan was disposed of.

But nice try.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
lmao, Kenobi has just recently ran from Grievous during their last fight, which took place this season. Not to mention the other times Grievous had Kenobi on the defensive and on the retreat, such as their duel in that factory when Grievous was cutting up those boxes and chasing after Kenobi. You have very selective memory with Kenobi.

HAHAHA you love lowballing Kenobi. He's never ran from Grievous. Why would he?

That recent episode it was made clear he was running from Grievous's ARMY!

Which episode you referring to when Grievous was cutting up boxes and chasing Kenobi LOL.

The only other episode when Grievous was chasing him was "Destroy Malevolence" when Obi-Wan had to get off his ship.

Now let's see Grievous ran away from KENOBI, not from Kenobi's troops, BOTH TIMES they had a ONE on ONE fight in "Grievous Intrigue" and in "Arc Troopers."

I'm afraid Sidious66 your the one with selective memory. Kenobi has never once retreated from Grievous alone. Only his army in the recent episode. And from his ship in the 4 th episode. LOL. I guess both Anakin and Obi-Wan were running from Griveous there because they were both so scared of a confrontation with him personally.

You attempts at lowballing Kenboi against Grievous have failed miserably.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just like Anakin resorted to the force to defeat Barriss, right? The difference is, Sidious actually defeated the brothers with his sabers, and he was tooling them combined. He was casually evading and blocking their blows, while landing his own physical attacks. Their 2 on 1 saber duel at the bottom of the palace was very brief before Sidious put Savage on his ass.

He defeated them ONE ON ONE in Sabers. Never both of them together. Even defeating Maul on his own was hardly easy for him.

Difference is Anakin was clearly superior to Barriss in every way. Sidious wasn't clearly superior to both brothers together in Sabers.

Heck Maul alone held his own in that department.

Besides what's your point here? I admit Barriss gave Anakin a legitimate challenge. Moreso in Sabers.

Are you ready to admit now that the brothers were legitimately challenging Sidious? Especially in the Saber fight?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, clashing blades with someone who is not trying to kill you, does not suggest parity. Sidious didn't plan on killing Maul. He only wanted to disarm him, and it took him a little over 20 seconds to do it. If a kick suggests parity, then I guess Grievous must be equal to Ventress and Kenobi.

Oh back to the timing thing. They were fighting evenly. That's what suggests parity. In skill and in speed. And it was more than 20 seconds. Which is actually a lot for such an intense, evenly fought and offensive fight.

And yeah Grievous does give a hrad time to pretty much everybody in a Sole Saber duel. The funny thing is the only one whose completely stomped him in that regard is Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

No, no. You haven't used my own logic against me. You can't even grasp it. Not to sound cocky, but to compare my logic with the logic the two of you have been using, is an outright insult. I do not claim to be one of the smartest here, but I'm not that bad.

Urm yes we have. LOL your right though. I could never grasp YOUR Logic.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It took Kenobi several fights of consistent struggle against Grievous just to finally get it right. It took Fisto one shot against Grievous, and he tooled Grievous quite casually, and was even seemingly toyful with Grievous. Based on that, it's silly to assume Kenobi is much better than Kit, unless we are to assume that Kenobi held back all those times and purposely put himself in risky situations and purposely gets ragdolled and floored by Grievous on a consistent basis. You're trying to assume Kenobi is better than Kit, based on fights Kenobi's had against opponents whom Fisto has never even faced. The only other common opponent Kit and Kenobi has faced, was Ventress. And even based on their performances against Ventress, still does not suggest Kenobi is much better than Fisto. While Kenobi may have gotten the best of Ventress a couple of times, whereas Kit hasn't, Obi Wan has also beened owned by Ventress a lot worse than Fisto has. Hell, Obi Wan's last fight against Ventress, he even had Anakin's help and was humiliated by her a lot worse than Fisto's one time defeat by her.

HAHAHA.. Let me break down how ridiclous your post is.

Took Kenobi several fights to get it right? What does that mean?

Grievous Intigue was the first time they had a prolonged fight like Fisto and Grievous did. And Grievous even had the help of Mgnaguards. And gues who RAN?! OH yes it was Grievous.

So what's all this several fights to get it right shit? Fact is by ROTS Kenobi tooled a much better trained Grievous. Completely Saber tooled. Beyond what we've seen from any other Jedi- even Ventress.

It's stupid to assume his experience helped him. Because Grievous also has the same experience against Kenobi that Kenobi does against him.

Grievous fought Fisto once and had no idea what his fighting style was. And there's no way he was expecting Jar Kai from from him.

You want to be reasonable and comapare their performances against other opponents?

Fine Fisto has done nothing in his career to suggest he could go toe to toe with Maul and Opress. In fact his pathetic performance against Sidious shows he's not even as good as Opress alone. (As confirmed by Dave Filnoi).

He was tooled by Ventress. There's nothing anywhere to suggest he improved to the stage where he's now on par with her. Especially since we know it's Ventress whose vastly improved.

And you have Kenobi, who tooled Opress while besting Maul. He gave Grievous the biggest Saber tooling of his career. And he defeated Sith Anakin for GOD's Sake.

Frankly it's retarded to even compare the 2 now. And based on what? Oh Fisto beat Grievous one time. LOL

Oh and if your gna give me that crap that Kenobi only ofught well against Opress and Maul because Adi died, that's fine. We should then also ignore Fisto's feat since Grievous just killed his former Padawan! LOL

It's fine by me to ignore both those fights, because Kenobi still has feats. Fisto's got nothing except being blitzed by Sidious and Dave Filoni confirming he's not as good as Opress even with his buddys. 😂

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Sidious was putting his all in that fight.

Actually there is. He was there to destroy Maul and outright kill Opress. And he became a whirlwind of destruction to do so.

There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And Sidious, at other times, has displayed speed that is far beyond what the brothers can handle.

Kind of like how Kenobi at other times has shown feats that are beyond Fisto. 😂

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If anything, there is a lot to suggest that the brothers were actually holding back against Kenobi, considering Maul's confirmation in "The Lawless" that he didn't plan on killing Kenobi, and the fact that Maul could have easily ended that fight whenever he wanted, considering how he ragdolled and barried Kenobi right after Savage's arm was severed.

What what what? Your claiming now that Maul can just ragdoll Kenobi whenever he feels like? Seriously S66 your losing the plot here.

"The Lawless" also shows Kenobi has no desire to kill Maul. Heck he tries to get him to change his ways! And he isn't supposed to kill him anyway. Windu makes it perfectly clear in "Revenge" that Maul's CAPTURE is far too important.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In short: Sidious would be able to replicate his raping of the brothers again and again, with ease. But there is nothing to suggest Kenobi can replicate his victory again and again, unless Maul and Savage just suck.

Perhaps, but there's everything to suggest that Kenobi is AT LEAST on par with Maul in Sabers. He's most probably above him. Even in an all out I don't believe Maul can just ragdoll him whenever he feels like. Not at all. He would have done so in both their One on One's if he could.

That alone puts him considerably above Grievous, Ventress and Opress. (Opress may have a chance with his mean Force Waves but it's pretty obvious Kenobi would take the majority).

That alone puts him far far above Fisto. In another league in fact. Fisto is no match for even Ventress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novel states he's continually getting stronger. Plus we know as a fact how much more powerful he's become from AOTC to ROTS.

I never said anything about AOTC Anakin. Of course he was more
powerful by ROTS, as it was years later.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What's the point in even arguing this point. ROTS was Anakin at his peak.

Never denied that. But did he suddenly reach his peak right at ROTS and no sooner? You need to prove he was more powerful as of ROTS than he was during his fight with Barriss, and by how much.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm no according to the script and the novel Anakin was already Angry at the point when Dooku kick slammed him. He just wasn't using his "Full Rage."

Well his anger is useless if he wasn't using it, right?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you want to try and prove that Anakin used his "Full Rage" against Barriss your welcome to give it a shot.

More double standards from you. lol

You don't use this standard when arguing that Sidious was using his full speed on Maul and Savage, you just accept that he was, despite the fact that Sidious has used better speed feats at other times. You suggested that I needed a quote that says Sidious wasn't using his full speed. Well, the same goes here: I need you to prove that Anakin wasn't using his full rage against Barriss. Obviously Anakin was angry at Barriss for setting his apprentice up, and risking her life of death penalty. There was visual signs of rage and frustration on Anakin's face when he was fighting Barriss. So if you claim that Anakin was holding back his full rage, then the burden of proof would be on you, would it not?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He gets kicked at 1:41. Anakin doesn't get back up to fight until 1:54. And he's literally not able to do anything except watch Obi-Wan get battered.

Ok, so you were right. But why are you even bringing this up when you are the one who admitted that Anakin wasn't using his full rage at the time?

Hell, when Sidious floored both of the brothers in similar fashion, you implied that it was an indication that Sidious was being overwhelmed (despite the fact that he wasn't. but whatever, clearly Filoni must have aired a different fight for you than they did for the rest of the world).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That recent episode it was made clear he was running from Grievous's ARMY!

Kenobi had an army too. And if it was the army that Obi Wan was running from, why is he the one who wanted to fight Grievous in the first place? Obi Wan only ran after Grievous sent his ass flying against the ship. clearly, Obi Wan felt that he was outmatched, and fled.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You attempts at lowballing Kenboi against Grievous have failed miserably.

No, I'm merely accepting consistencies. You are the one lowballing Grievous and Fisto.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He defeated them ONE ON ONE in Sabers. Never both of them together. Even defeating Maul on his own was hardly easy for him.

Well to the rest of the world, Sidious was tooling them both 2 on 1. They must have aired a different fight for you, IDK.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Difference is Anakin was clearly superior to Barriss in every way. Sidious wasn't clearly superior to both brothers together in Sabers.

😆

Sidious stomped Savage and Maul far more easily than Anakin defeated Barriss.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Heck Maul alone held his own in that department.

Yes, they were clearly equals because Maul kicked him once, despite being disarmed right after Sidious decided to end it. lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Besides what's your point here? I admit Barriss gave Anakin a legitimate challenge. Moreso in Sabers.

More than Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Are you ready to admit now that the brothers were legitimately challenging Sidious? Especially in the Saber fight?

Well, no. I can't. Sorry, I didn't watch the same fight as you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh back to the timing thing. They were fighting evenly. That's what suggests parity. In skill and in speed. And it was more than 20 seconds. Which is actually a lot for such an intense, evenly fought and offensive fight.

AOTC Kenobi was fighting Dooku for about 20 seconds, so I guess that suggests parity. Grievous fought Ventress for about 20 seconds, and even landed a kick on her, so I guess that also suggest parity. Ventress, with no lightsabers, landed several physical attacks on Anakin, and lasted for a few seconds, so I guess that suggests parity, possibly even superiority considering she didn't have her lightsabers. Ventress lasted about 20 seconds against Dooku after they both fled from Opress, so I guess that suggests parity.

So, yes I'm convinced. Maul, tapping into his full rage, managed to clash blades for a little over 20 seconds against someone who wasn't trying to kill him. This suggests that he is equal to Sidious in sheer speed, and can probably cut down three "celebrated swordsmasters" in seconds. Hmm, I wonder why he didn't just blitz Vizla. Oh, wait, I know: because he was wanting to impress the audience, so he put himself in very risky situations by allowing Vizla to nearly blow his body apart, instead of just ending the duel when they were saber length away from eachother.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yeah Grievous does give a hrad time to pretty much everybody in a Sole Saber duel. The funny thing is the only one whose completely stomped him in that regard is Obi-Wan.

Kit didn't have a hard time with him. He had Grievous on the defensive the whole fight. Obi Wan's best performance against Grievous didn't even come easy for him, as the novel says Obi Wan's defense was overloaded (are you now going to suggest that that's because Grievous had a speed upgrade since he fought Kit). For someone who is equal to Sidious in sabers, Kenobi should have absolutely no trouble against Grievous.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Grievous fought Fisto once and had no idea what his fighting style was. And there's no way he was expecting Jar Kai from from him.

This is just retarded. Grievous is a Jar Kai practitioner, and was trained specifically to fight jedi. However, it's not an everyday thing that a jedi fights a cyborg with four blades who can move them at angles that a jedi can not (thanks to his computer enhanced brain that allows him to coordinate all blades simultaneously). Kit had no experience with an opponent like Grievous, but he still tooled him his first try, whereas it took Kenobi several tries of consistent struggling to do just as good as Fisto.

You also have no proof that Grievous was all that much better as of ROTS. He is not a force user, so he doesn't increase in power. Does he get a speed upgrade every month or something? How is he any better? The computer chip he has in his brain allows him to quickly adapt to the fighting style of his opponents, as it did when he was fighting Mace. Nothing has changed about him. He had the same exact advantages when he fought Kit as when he fights any other jedi. Stop reaching.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was tooled by Ventress. There's nothing anywhere to suggest he improved to the stage where he's now on par with her. Especially since we know it's Ventress whose vastly improved.

And Kenobi was tooled by her on two occasions, and a lot worse than Fisto was. So again, their performances against Ventress does not suggest that Kenobi is much better than Fisto. Yes, Kenobi has bested her on occasions (whereas Fisto has never bested her), but he has also been humiliated by her in far worse ways than Fisto's one time defeat by her.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And you have Kenobi, who tooled Opress while besting Maul. He gave Grievous the biggest Saber tooling of his career. And he defeated Sith Anakin for GOD's Sake.

Fine, I'll go along with you and ignore circumstance and context, but that would just mean Maul and Savage both suck. That's ok with me. That very same season Kenobi was fleeing from Grievous, so I guess Grievous is a greater threat than Maul and Savage combined.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Frankly it's retarded to even compare the 2 now. And based on what? Oh Fisto beat Grievous one time. LOL

Fisto was easily tooling Grievous. Even when he had the opportunity to finish Grievous while Grievous was on his ass, he simply stood there taunting him (almost the same way Grievous did to Kenobi when he had Kenobi on his back) and allowed him to get back up, which suggested that Fisto didn't found Grievous to be a joke.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's fine by me to ignore both those fights, because Kenobi still has feats. Fisto's got nothing except being blitzed by Sidious and Dave Filoni confirming he's not as good as Opress even with his buddys. 😂

Dave never confirmed this. He said Savage put up a better fight. If Filoni intended to depict Opress as being superior to the council members, then he failed at doing it by depicting Sidious as being playful and even suggested that Sidious was merely playing around.

BTW, my latest post here are for the other posters to read and to look into my arguments (and because it's fun to humiliate DP), because I do feel that Obi Wan has been overrated on these forums a bit too much. I do think that Obi Wan is a very skilled fighter, but I also think he has rivals, and the show has done a good job at suggesting that there are other jedi masters who are on par with him. I also think it's a bit too much to put him on the level of people like Dooku and Windu in saber skills.

313

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dave never confirmed this. He said Savage put up a better fight. If Filoni intended to depict Opress as being superior to the council members, then he failed at doing it by depicting Sidious as being playful and even suggested that Sidious was merely playing around.

BTW, my latest post here are for the other posters to read and to look into my arguments (and because it's fun to humiliate DP), because I do feel that Obi Wan has been overrated on these forums a bit too much. I do think that Obi Wan is a very skilled fighter, but I also think he has rivals, and the show has done a good job at suggesting that there are other jedi masters who are on par with him. I also think it's a bit too much to put him on the level of people like Dooku and Windu in saber skills.

I have to say Sidious 66, your an AMAZING debator...

😆

Kenobi was a weapon of mass destruction.

You're reaching into contradiction corner at this point.

Gideon called, he says he's flattered you're using his catchphrase. He also says go **** yourself, immediately.

Gideon no longer matters on KMC.

excellent

Originally posted by The_Tempest
313

Good? You didn't do the Palpatine.

Originally posted by Excalibur2776
I have to say Sidious 66, your an AMAZING debator...

Thank you.

Fisto was easily tooling Grievous. Even when he had the opportunity to finish Grievous while Grievous was on his ass, he simply stood there taunting him (almost the same way Grievous did to Kenobi when he had Kenobi on his back) and allowed him to get back up, which suggested that Fisto didn't found Grievous to be a joke.

^Fixed.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Gideon no longer matters on KMC.

excellent

Speculation much. Anakin was angry at both of them, and you're in no position to determine who he was angrier at.

Facts are facts, and Barriss put up a better saber fight than Dooku. That's how it was shown, and that's how it is. You can speculate all you want, but you have no proof.

As for your illogical argument that someone not trying to kill doesn't mean that they are holding back, I already addressed in the Maul brothers vs. Bane thread on page 17. To quote myself:

"when one isn't trying to kill, they hold back. You said you practiced sword fighting, and that it's easier to aim for the hands and feet. Well IDK, I don't know about sword fighting, but I do know when you aim at only particular area's, your chances of landing a blow that will end the fight, will be a lot less, no matter how easier the specific target is compared to the rest. You're still limiting yourself."

^ You can argue against it all you want, but when you're not trying to kill someone, you limit your areas of target

Second, wrist as target wasn't my only argument. Before that I said that Force user can stop attack at the last moment causing only shin damage. That's what Dooku did to Kenobi.

, and you would also likely limit your aggression and speed as to not accidentally kill them. This is just common sense.

"She deftly sidestepped the thrust and returned with a parry of her own as he stumbled to regain his balance. Had he been a real enemy, she could have finished him then, but she pulled her blade aside for a split second, just to demonstrate that Jacen had let his guard drop-a lesson a Jedi Knight would need to learn to avoid defeat."

And this:
"Jacen's lightsaber pressed against hers, and she took a step back. They stood deadlocked, slamming energy blade against impenetrable energy blade.

Fiery electricity crackled, and the air thickened with the sharp,scent of ozone. Tenel Ka pushed with all her strength, but Jacen countered with equal force.

Her palm was sweaty, but her hand maintained its grip on the rancor-tooth handle. Inside, the components of her lightsaber vibrated, as if struggling to maintain the full energy of the blade while Tenel Ka pressed so furiously against an equally powerful weapon.She pushed harder. The handle rattled.

Jacen grinned at her. "Hope you don't expect me to surrender too easily."

"Perhaps you should," she panted, and pressed harder, ignoring the strange, unsettling sensations from her weapon. She gritted her teeth. Her arm strained. The lightsabers whined and buzzed. Jacen shoved back with all his might. His eyes glittered with the effort.

Over by the edge of the clearing, Master Skywalker stood watching the tense battle, as did Lowbacca and Jaina.

Tenel Ka narrowed her gray eyes, not easing UP for an instant, wondering how best she could defeat Jacen and end this match.

Suddenly,.something changed inside her lightsaher. She heard a sharp crack and then a loud hissing sizzle.

Jacen pressed harder with his emerald-green blade. For the briefest instant, the golden sparks that shot through her white pulsating energy beam flickered wildly. Her blade bluffed with static, grew less focused.

Intent on the battle, Jacen gave a final, extra push with all his strength".

This shows that practitioners use their full strength against each other. Tenel Ka used all her strength and, yet, pressed even harder than that.
Their fight was described as "tense battle". Why would it be described like that, if they didn't put their full effort?

You are right, accidents can happen. And that's what happened in this fight, Tenel Ka lost arm. But that was completely unexpected due to lightsaber bein faulty. Otherwise they used their full strength. They parried as well as dodged and nowhere it was stated that they fought at half speed or anything like that. It only mentions how tenel Ka pulled her lightsaber aside, when opportunity to kill arose. And why would they need to? Force users can anticipate a blaster bolt before it is even shot, it shouldn't be difficult to anticipate a killing blow and stop attack at last instant causing cripling blow instead.

Also, keep in mind that it was Tenel Ka's first fight, yet, she was exerting her hardest and Luke felt alright about that. If unskilled combatant are allowed to use whole effort during sparring, why experienced ones wouldn't?
Moreover, most Jedi never had real lightsaber fight, yet, it was still Golden Age for Jedi in terms of saber skill. Dooku's saber prowess was gained from sparring, where they don't intend to kill. Sidious, also, never had real lightsaber fight. Maul attacking him in rage was the only exception.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dave never confirmed this. He said Savage put up a better fight. If Filoni intended to depict Opress as being superior to the council members, then he failed at doing it by depicting Sidious as being playful and even suggested that Sidious was merely playing around.

LOL If he put up a better fight than all 3 of them then of course he's superior to Fisto alone.

Yeah it's only you who and your mates here who saw Sidious as "Playing around." I guess he was playing around against Yoda too.

Filoni again confirms the Sidious fight was a legitimate one in his latest interview with IGN:

I think you’re looking at a pretty long term plan that was going on to establish his criminal empire, so that he’s threatening enough to Sidious that Sidious is like, “Okay, I’m gonna go beat these guys down now.” [Laughs] And that was really fun, to show Sidious in this legitimate fight and taking apart these two villains, even to have Maul beg. Again, Maul’s not the master, so he’s still got the fear in him to beg and plead for his own life.

How beautiful he would use those exact words.

But you keep grasping for straws S66. Keep pretending he doesn't mean that just when he conifrms Opress did better than Fisto and crewe. When he OUTRIGHT states it was a LEGITIMATE FIGHT.

I know your going to say "Wait LOL he might not literally mean that," because that's been your style of debating on the issue Ignoring EVERY SINGLE Canon Source on the issue.

(Btw this isn't actually for you S66. It's for other people to see how much crap you come out with. How everything you say is based on your own (pretty damn biased) speculation. Not backed by any facts at all.)

You want to argue Sidious is a better Saber duelist than Kenobi. Fine, argue Kenobi's performance against the same opponents was a highly focused and peak performance for him based on his previous fights and Filoni's words.

Argue that if the Saber fight continued that Sidious most likely would have still won if he didn't resort to using Force Attacks.

Your opinion would hold a lot more credit if you argued that way.

But to Lowball Kenobi claiming he's in Fisto's league, and then Lowball the Brothers performance against Sidious based on YOUR OWN WISHES which goes against Every Single Source on the subject.. That's when you prove your arguments hold no merit at all.