Originally posted by Voyeur
You've never bashed me and I've never bashed you. But I have critiqued how you debate because it's monotomous. I'm not talking about the characters any more cos all you want to talk about is the things I stated above. Limited but not restricted too.."Granite"
"Whip"
"Omnislash Physical"
and now
"Game mechanics"
"Canon"not one of these things have been out of the last several or more posts of yours. I'm saving myself the trouble of even bothering talking about Link because these are the only things you want to go on about and forcing us to try and prove to how simple it is to see other wise. And why bother telling you what Link can do? By your own thoughts and standards Link is restricted to slashing his sword horizontal and vertical because Link can only do what he is capable of in Cut scenes.
So we should just post all of Link's cut scenes vs Sephiroth's cut scenes and who ever is shown doing more wins. Cool.
*rolls eyes* :]
A lot of what Link does is through gameplay and game mechanics. But if we go by your standards our Link translation of that can only use B button, A button, R and Z, with some C-sticking. You have to go beyond the game in these discussions, that much is obvious. So if Link fought these monsters, it'd be pretty clear that he could of also dodged those attacks, instead of your deduction of just saying he shielded and got hit. See it goes both ways? See why I don't want to bother with you. It's all stamp stamp stamp, narrow mind. So, no point.
and I'm sure I'll get another "lol omfg tantrum" reply, which I really could care less. You're restricting yourself to your views, your perceptions, instead of what other evidence is out there. It's like I said, trying to talk to some one about their religion. No way can anyone convert one to not believe in God, and they'll always say "the bible says." This is the equivalence of what is happening now. And time and time again has proven to not bother talking about religion or politics.
You fail to understand what is canon and what is not. Dissidia is NOT canon. I understand you're new here, but please. Use your brain.
Omnislash ISN'T physical, if you think it is, then you need to get your eyes checked.
I don't understand why you're bringing up "cutscenes" when I never once mentioned it at all, yet you, for some reason are trying to make some ridiculous claim that I only take cutscenes as canon? No. I take the story plot as canon. What the character actually does in the storyline as opposed to what the Player does in gameplay. What the character does is canon, what the player decides to do in the gameplay is not.
Which is why you CANNOT claim that Link is able to dodge every whip attack coming at him. Because we have ZERO proof that he did.
I don't know why you're bringing nonsnse that has nothing to do with this here, like religion. All i'm asking you is EVIDENCE, since you're trying to make a claim which is full of holes and incorrect bullshit.
You have zero real evidence Link dodges the speed of sound. Done, Deal.
So once again I ask you for about the 11th time. What can Link do to Sephiroth?
If you don't give me an answer, I will assume he can do nothing. Therefore, Sephiroth wins.
He still fails at whips, the direction of the attack is not decided until the loop is tugged, dodging before this just gets you hit because the guy with the whip aims where you moved to.
Final Fantasy Advent Children is the longest cut scene in video game history. Since that's where Terry likes to get his proofs. CS's
Negative, there's a great deal of control involved in the crack itself, whips are very unpredictable weapons. Technicly it'd be easier to dodge a freakin' bullet by checking where they point the gun, guns can't change direction at the last second. Same for swords and axes, look where they raise it.
A whip? They extend it, THEN crack for the attack and you'd better have some thick hide.
Dodging a whip is easier then dodging a bullet now? LOL oh god.
Exactly they extend it, the direction they pull back dictates where the whip cracks, and even then its not instantly the speed of sound, it builds up momentum from the hand throughout the entire length of the whip, then the very end hits that speed.
Extending the whip is not part of the attack, if you dodge before the crack, which is when it's decided where the attack is going, you're still gettign hit.
and really, no normal person dodges a bullet, they get missed, or they see where the gun is pointed and immediately do everythign in their power to GTFO. With a whip all they can do is get out of range, take cove,r or get missed because you can't predict where it'll land, it hits you before you hear the crack.
In MM, there's no way to get out of range, the whips are incredibly long, and they're two of them.
You want proof Link can dodge Majora's whips, but the only way we can prove that is through game play, since it's a boss fight.
The only other way it would be proven is if there was a cut scene where Majora' whipped at Link and he dodged.
That's why I got on about cut scenes, because you won't take obvious game play into factor because it's simple enough to use your brain and go beyond that. It'd be reasonable to say Link dodged Majora's whips before, reacted fast enough to Shield them (not stand there with the Shield up all day) during the fight with Majora that is Canon. Because Link fights Majora. So by Canon giving Majora these powers and abilities, it'd be reasonable that Link could dodge, react to shield, and sure get caught off guard to be hit at times even. All Zelda game fights with Link and his skills are up to game play, so like I said if you're going to just focus on that and not go beyond it, there is no point in arguing with you. You win because of restrictions.
but you want a cut scene proof that doesn't exist. So. It's pointless. And there is no point as I stated earlier discussing what Link can do to you because Sephiroth is your God, and you can't argue about God and religion with people. That's why I avoid your question. Not because I could show proof and go on about this, but it will go no where because you won't give up and be reasonable to say "All right, that does make sense." It's black and white. No shades of gray with you.
so yeah :]
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Extending the whip is not part of the attack, if you dodge before the crack, which is when it's decided where the attack is going, you're still gettign hit.and really, no normal person dodges a bullet, they get missed, or they see where the gun is pointed and immediately do everythign in their power to GTFO. With a whip all they can do is get out of range, take cove,r or get missed because you can't predict where it'll land, it hits you before you hear the crack.
In MM, there's no way to get out of range, the whips are incredibly long, and they're two of them.
The extension of the whip is how the attack starts, and once the person extends the whip, someone with a fast reaction will dive away which dramtically decreases the chance of getting hit. Does that mean the person just dodged the speed of sound? No.
Exactly, no normal person CAN dodge a bullet, the only thing they can do is run away and pray that the person will miss. Legitimately dodging a bullet is dodging, is when the bullet is fired directly at you, reacting fast enough, and moving out of the bullets path, which would have otherwised hit you. No normal human can do that.
With a whip, you have the entire time the person pulls his arm back, and the momentum builds from the hand to the end of the whip.
Once the person pulls the trigger, the speed of the bullet is instantaneous
Once the person pulls the whip back, the speed is NOT instaneous, becuase momentum from the hand to the end of the whip needs to build up.
Bullet is MUCH harder to dodge. Is a bullet more easier to predict? Possibly. But to actually dodge? No way.
Link looses due to game play, game mechanics.
Not enough cut scene proof.
Who cares. Sheik's cooler any way. Just say Seph gimps Link.
Originally posted by Burning thoughteven by your own views of Kain though and his manipulation of blood would understand that if Majora has attacks capable of breaking the sound barrier, meaning at one point reach the speed of sound then break it, and tried to hit Link that Link would be able to dodge some, react to shield some and so forth, even though you only get to have this match in a game play boss fight.
Amen to that.
Not everything is set in stone. You have to go beyond what is in the game.
Originally posted by Terryc250
The extension of the whip is how the attack starts, and once the person extends the whip, someone with a fast reaction will dive away which dramtically decreases the chance of getting hit. Does that mean the person just dodged the speed of sound? No.Exactly, no normal person CAN dodge a bullet, the only thing they can do is run away and pray that the person will miss. Legitimately dodging a bullet is dodging, is when the bullet is fired directly at you, reacting fast enough, and moving out of the bullets path, which would have otherwised hit you. No normal human can do that.
With a whip, you have the entire time the person pulls his arm back, and the momentum builds from the hand to the end of the whip.
Once the person pulls the trigger, the speed of the bullet is instantaneous
Once the person pulls the whip back, the speed is NOT instaneous, becuase momentum from the hand to the end of the whip needs to build up.
Bullet is MUCH harder to dodge. Is a bullet more easier to predict? Possibly. But to actually dodge? No way.
Fail.
Once the gun is aimed, the path of the bullet is set, this is not so for a whip, you extend the whip, if someone move,s you crack it where they'll be. TADAAH, they got hit, you never dodge a whip, you get missed.
Originally posted by Voyeur
You want proof Link can dodge Majora's whips, but the only way we can prove that is through game play, since it's a boss fight.The only other way it would be proven is if there was a cut scene where Majora' whipped at Link and he dodged.
That's why I got on about cut scenes, because you won't take obvious game play into factor because it's simple enough to use your brain and go beyond that. It'd be reasonable to say Link dodged Majora's whips before, reacted fast enough to Shield them (not stand there with the Shield up all day) during the fight with Majora that is Canon. Because Link fights Majora. So by Canon giving Majora these powers and abilities, it'd be reasonable that Link could dodge, react to shield, and sure get caught off guard to be hit at times even. All Zelda game fights with Link and his skills are up to game play, so like I said if you're going to just focus on that and not go beyond it, there is no point in arguing with you. You win because of restrictions.
but you want a cut scene proof that doesn't exist. So. It's pointless. And there is no point as I stated earlier discussing what Link can do to you because Sephiroth is your God, and you can't argue about God and religion with people. That's why I avoid your question. Not because I could show proof and go on about this, but it will go no where because you won't give up and be reasonable to say "All right, that does make sense." It's black and white. No shades of gray with you.so yeah :] [/B]
Sephiroth isn't my god, Sephiroth just simply beats Link. Because you aren't giving me any realfeats/ evidence to prove he can beat him.
All i'm asking for is a an answer as to How Link is going to beat Sephiroth. Sephiroth has a far speed advantage, and can instantly teleport to distance, or fly out of reach. He can use his TK, or his negative lifestream, which would put Link down.
Originally posted by Voyeur
.
even by your own views of Kain though and his manipulation of blood would understand that if Majora has attacks capable of breaking the sound barrier, meaning at one point reach the speed of sound then break it, and tried to hit Link that Link would be able to dodge some, react to shield some and so forth, even though you only get to have this match in a game play boss fight.Not everything is set in stone. You have to go beyond what is in the game.
indeed, I wonder however, do we know Link dodges them in canon outside of gameplay?
Ofcourse, with proper evidence and logic etc appropriate to the characters and some common sense they are certainly capable of doing certain things that the gameplay does not allow. Its impossible to allow everything in gameplay, its simple fact that gaming, even today is not capable of taking into account physically and mentally every action a charcter would do in the actual gameplay.
Originally posted by Burning thought
indeed, I wonder however, do we know Link dodges them in canon outside of gameplay?Ofcourse, with proper evidence and logic etc appropriate to the characters and some common sense they are certainly capable of doing certain things that the gameplay does not allow. Its impossible to allow everything in gameplay, its simple fact that gaming, even today is not capable of taking into account physically and mentally every action a charcter would do in the actual gameplay.
certainly at times he would. Which also would lead into going beyond game mechanics to that Farore's wind would be an instant cast and quick teleportation... oh but now, I can't say that because of game play.
See, this is what it's like dealing with Terry. You can't use common sense and go beyond the obvious.
There's zero evidence to even suggest Farore's Wind is instant, so you have no basis to claim that. In the game, Link could only teleport to certain warp points which took him some time to actually teleport there.
So you cannot claim it's "instant teleportation" without any evidence or anything that even suggests it, just because you want it to be.
Fail.Once the gun is aimed, the path of the bullet is set, this is not so for a whip, you extend the whip, if someone move,s you crack it where they'll be. TADAAH, they got hit, you never dodge a whip, you get missed
Dodging a whip is far easier because you have all the time that the person pull his arm back, to the momentum building up from the hand throughout the whip before the end reaches the speed.
It's the same for people in real life, you never actually dodged a bullet, the person simply missed.
Originally posted by Voyeur
certainly at times he would. Which also would lead into going beyond game mechanics to that Farore's wind would be an instant cast and quick teleportation... oh but now, I can't say that because of game play.See, this is what it's like dealing with Terry. You can't use common sense and go beyond the obvious.
So we dont actually know? we can only assume, I dont know, are there strong canonical, logical reasoning behind it being a instant cast and quick teleportation?
By the sounds of it, taking the fact in gameplay Link can dodge said Whips is not enough to claim he could in a canon/storyline instance. For all we know, the canon battle had Link destroying Majora a diffrent way, or doing moves/combos the players cannot represent in the games.
I know full well all of Terries flaws, he tries to nitpick everything and in a way I share a certain simularity in that regard, thing is, I nitpick relevent things, like cast times, canon, speeds, strengths.....wheras Terry is happy strawmanning a thread, debating what type of rock Link was lifting.......