Originally posted by HewhoknowsallIt's perfectly fine if the Empire loses, we're not THAT diehard here. We do take issue with logical fallacy and pointlessness (when it's not called for). It was the fact that you made and outlined the scenario of this match, but had already designed it so that the Empire would fail. We'd respect you more if you made it on equal terms---making it possible for each side to win based on varying factors. Instead you took Sun Tzu's advice and won the battle before you began it... that's fine in real life, but here it's just annoying.
I added two things in favor of earth (one which is perfectly realistic) you guys added in two including one that is completely excluded from my list of troops/armor the empire has.
Back to the nuclear option, when detonated a nuclear weapon emits a massive EMP pulse wave that shuts down any electronic systems. That would render all Empire and Earth electronically based weapons useless. It would come down to a straight infantry vs infantry fight and I don't think a stormtrooper would want to face a Marine.
To take Earth, you would have to take it's cities. Military bases are too well defended and would have to be destroyed from bombardment either from an SD or TIE fighter or bomber. ICBMs & SLBMs would deny the space bombardment and our fighters would deny the airstrikes.
So this leaves stormtroopers clearing houses and streets and from the nightly news we know how dangerous that is. An AT-ST would be easily killed by an Abrams or AH-64 Longbow Apache. SABOT & HEAT rounds would burn through the durasteel armor and explode them like a plastic toy. Heavy artillery and surgical airstrikes would kill an AT-AT due to it's slow speed - I'm guessing it's upper armor isn't as strong so that's it's weak point. That's the standard weak area on all armored vehicles.
If you were a stormtrooper how would you react to the sound of automatic weapons fire? An RPG exploding behind you and watching several of your squadmates blown apart? How would a stormtrooper react?
Originally posted by Darth TruculentHow would a squad of marines react to their comrades getting holes burned through them? Stormtroopers seem pretty used to their numbers and fellows getting killed.
Back to the nuclear option, when detonated a nuclear weapon emits a massive EMP pulse wave that shuts down any electronic systems. That would render all Empire and Earth electronically based weapons useless. It would come down to a straight infantry vs infantry fight and I don't think a stormtrooper would want to face a Marine.To take Earth, you would have to take it's cities. Military bases are too well defended and would have to be destroyed from bombardment either from an SD or TIE fighter or bomber. ICBMs & SLBMs would deny the space bombardment and our fighters would deny the airstrikes.
So this leaves stormtroopers clearing houses and streets and from the nightly news we know how dangerous that is. An AT-ST would be easily killed by an Abrams or AH-64 Longbow Apache. SABOT & HEAT rounds would burn through the durasteel armor and explode them like a plastic toy. Heavy artillery and surgical airstrikes would kill an AT-AT due to it's slow speed - I'm guessing it's upper armor isn't as strong so that's it's weak point. That's the standard weak area on all armored vehicles.
If you were a stormtrooper how would you react to the sound of automatic weapons fire? An RPG exploding behind you and watching several of your squadmates blown apart? How would a stormtrooper react?
And lol, I don't think an EMP pulse will mean much if the nuke kills everyone involved.
As for the city-fighting: The AT-ATs will approach LA and level it. They can vaporize buildings and knock out foundations like that *snaps fingers*.
I've realized something: as none of us seem to know just what Imperial AA equipment is, we're at a crossroads----Earth would never resort to Nukes if they're airforce is still operating, but how do we gauge the effectiveness of SW AA to take out jets and missiles if we don't know what it is. Anyone here privy to that knowledge?
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Back to the nuclear option, when detonated a nuclear weapon emits a massive EMP pulse wave that shuts down any electronic systems. That would render all Empire and Earth electronically based weapons useless. It would come down to a straight infantry vs infantry fight and I don't think a stormtrooper would want to face a Marine.To take Earth, you would have to take it's cities. Military bases are too well defended and would have to be destroyed from bombardment either from an SD or TIE fighter or bomber. ICBMs & SLBMs would deny the space bombardment and our fighters would deny the airstrikes.
So this leaves stormtroopers clearing houses and streets and from the nightly news we know how dangerous that is. An AT-ST would be easily killed by an Abrams or AH-64 Longbow Apache. SABOT & HEAT rounds would burn through the durasteel armor and explode them like a plastic toy. Heavy artillery and surgical airstrikes would kill an AT-AT due to it's slow speed - I'm guessing it's upper armor isn't as strong so that's it's weak point. That's the standard weak area on all armored vehicles.
If you were a stormtrooper how would you react to the sound of automatic weapons fire? An RPG exploding behind you and watching several of your squadmates blown apart? How would a stormtrooper react?
Ummmm.... What?
You know what? Since everybody seems to hate me for adding stuff in after the OP, let's just take away everything added on after that, ok?
This means:
Imperials DO know about the earth
No AA guns (which Lord Lucien added AFTER OP)
And Nai, about it being a farce that the imperials lack air support, if they're lightyears beyond us in tech, then not having air support shouldn't prevent them from winning (or at least trying to win). And besides, how come you don't bring that up until now? Because you don't have any other argument?
@Darth Truculent
We don't even need to keep the skies/space clear, they don't get air/space support 🙂
Now that there isn't any AA for the imperials (not my fault, you guys insisted on me not "twisting the thread" and not giving them air support isn't cheap considering the tech gap), we just bomb them to hell.
Heavy artillery will destroy virtually anything. We also can't forget mobile artillery - mounted on vehicles that unleash everything they have in a matter of seconds. When I mentioned an AT-AT being destroyed from the air - when the AT-AT was brought down by the snowspeeder it was destroyed by blaster fire from above. It can be argued that it's upper armor is weak. Almost forgot too - Earth has AA too: SAM batteries.
Sidious66 - a blaster can't blow a human being in half like an RPG or a SAW heavy machine gun. I haven't read or watched in any of the SW books or movies seen someone bleed out. Ironically, it seems a blaster is a more humane way to be killed than taking a bullet. A bacta patch can't heal bullet wounds or shrapnel from an RPG or grenade.
AT-ATs can't take a city alone - you need ground troops and ground troops would take massive casualties. An AT-AT is too big to fit in LA, so AT-STs would be the primary heavy weapon the Empire would use to take a city. Unfortunately a TOW anti-tank missile would nullify them. AH-64s would easily destroy an AT-AT & AT-ST too. Have you seen the destruction of a Hellfire missile? It's pretty impressive.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall'Kay no... you're not getting it. We didn't "insist you twist" the thread. We insisted that you add details and specifics. With or WITHOUT the details, you still have the Imperials at a disadvantage. NO air? Not even a squad of TIEs? NO knowledge? NO transports? NO reserve supplies? NO naval?
You know what? Since everybody seems to hate me for adding stuff in after the OP, let's just take away everything added on after that, ok?This means:
Imperials DO know about the earth
No AA guns (which Lord Lucien added AFTER OP)And Nai, about it being a farce that the imperials lack air support, if they're lightyears beyond us in tech, then not having air support shouldn't prevent them from winning (or at least trying to win). And besides, how come you don't bring that up until now? Because you don't have any other argument?
@Darth Truculent
We don't even need to keep the skies/space clear, they don't get air/space support 🙂
Now that there isn't any AA for the imperials (not my fault, you guys insisted on me not "twisting the thread" and not giving them air support isn't cheap considering the tech gap), we just bomb them to hell.
When the thread creator (you) can make a judgment on your own thread so definitively and so soon, it's a poor Vs. match.
This thread needs to locked, now.
First, thread creator: the purpose of a thread is hopefully that an interesting debate will come out of it. You intentionally stacked the deck against the Empire; it makes me wonder if you have some sort of grudge against a fictional government, but oh well. Learn from your mistake here.
Second, the Empire's technology is vastly superior to ours. They are far better trained, far more refined, and far more destructive than anything we have. Period. The end.
(Not saying they'd win this particular fight, given the logistical nightmare the creator put them in)
Now, REX, commence with the lock-age.
Originally posted by Gideon
This thread needs to locked, now.First, thread creator: the purpose of a thread is hopefully that an interesting debate will come out of it. You intentionally stacked the deck against the Empire; it makes me wonder if you have some sort of grudge against a fictional government, but oh well. Learn from your mistake here.
Second, the Empire's technology is vastly superior to ours. They are far better trained, far more refined, and far more destructive than anything we have. Period. The end.
(Not saying they'd win this particular fight, given the logistical nightmare the creator put them in)
Now, REX, commence with the lock-age.
What did I do that made this thread bias? No space support? That's to prevent this thread from being a spite (star destroyer > earth)
And, I've already gave huge arguments on how we would win, but you just ignore me and say "oh they win because their tech is superior?" Sure, their tech is superior in some (most) ways, but their AT-STs got destroyed by SWINGING logs.
Logistical nightmare? It's common sense that any invasion should factor in logistics. Should we just ignore supplies/food/etc? And I gave them PLENTY of supplies.
I'll say this again: IF I were to allow the imperials to have space/air support, then this would be a spite and then people would yell at me for making a spite thread. Now, people yell at me for adding stuff in earth's favor. Well...
If one side is at a tech disadvantage, then it's reasonable to add in something in favor of them to balance things out. Yelling at me for it IS THE SAME THING AS YELLING AT A THREAD STARTER FOR HAVING A 2 TO 1 FIGHT VS. LOTF LUKE SAYING "OH WELL IT'S NOT FAIR FOR LUKE!"
I'm taking into acount modern battle tactics. Imperials would waste resources, but the US wouldn't. They'd choose which battles they could fight and win. Imperials are fighting on our turf on would have more than a difficult time defeating us.
And yes, some Earth weaponry is far better than Imperial. I'd take an M4 Carbine over a blaster any day - better rate of fire and more accurate. Sure it could jam, but the jam can be cleared in less than a minute. If a blaster overheats, you can't unjam that. And I'm pretty sure a stormtrooper would have difficulty figuring out how to load and fire an M16 or M4. Seems easy enough, but believe me it isn't.
I'd hate to be a stormtrooper under .50 caliber sniper fire. The sniper is over a km away and is killing your squad at will. RPG or thermal detonator? - I'll take the RPG because it has twice the range. Abrams tank vs AT-ST: Abrams can fire and kill targets on the move. Also they have a turret that swivels in a 360 degree rotation. Look up Battle of 73 Eastings.
Anyway, hope that helps a bit.
Originally posted by HewhoknowsallYour use of logic is astoundingly warped. From the get-go, you had the Imperials on the losing edge. Even with the extra specifics you gave after, their still buggered. NO air support, not a BIT is spite.
What did I do that made this thread bias? No space support? That's to prevent this thread from being a spite (star destroyer > earth)And, I've already gave huge arguments on how we would win, but you just ignore me and say "oh they win because their tech is superior?" Sure, their tech is superior in some (most) ways, but their AT-STs got destroyed by SWINGING logs.
Logistical nightmare? It's common sense that any invasion should factor in logistics. Should we just ignore supplies/food/etc? And I gave them PLENTY of supplies.
I'll say this again: IF I were to allow the imperials to have space/air support, then this would be a spite and then people would yell at me for making a spite thread. Now, people yell at me for adding stuff in earth's favor. Well...
If one side is at a tech disadvantage, then it's reasonable to add in something in favor of them to balance things out. Yelling at me for it IS THE SAME THING AS YELLING AT A THREAD STARTER FOR HAVING A 2 TO 1 FIGHT VS. LOTF LUKE SAYING "OH WELL IT'S NOT FAIR FOR LUKE!"
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
And yes, some Earth weaponry is far better than Imperial. I'd take an M4 Carbine over a blaster any day - better rate of fire and more accurate. Sure it could jam, but the jam can be cleared in less than a minute. If a blaster overheats, you can't unjam that. And I'm pretty sure a stormtrooper would have difficulty figuring out how to load and fire an M16 or M4. Seems easy enough, but believe me it isn't.
You do realize that empire possess more infantry guns then just the rifle that the storm troopers carry in the movies.....