New Gods VS Not New Gods....

Originally posted by Allankles
This overly defensive talk shows a glaringly small capacity to assess things fairly. Abstract suggest above top tier i.e. he's not restrained by a certain combat effective level, all that is irrelevant when we're talking about abstract beings.

Assess things fairly? Are u taking urself seriously at all? More nonsense. You pick and choose in posts, blatantly dodge evry single challenge and question posed to u, try to replace feats with conjecture,pitifully attempt to pass off no limit fallacies as arguments and u have the audacity to tell me im not assesing things fairly? 😱. Complete rubbish. Abstract DOES NOT suggest above top tier when the person has feats which indicate his being top tier. Maybe it does in ur little world but it certainly doesnt on KMC. End of story.

Don't come screaming like I don't know Orion's combat level which is merely determined by the physical, cosmic body that evolved in the fourth world, he is a true god, much more than the flesh he wears. The NG had evolved genetically stable bodies capable enough of housing prime celestials, nothing more.

What a crock of shit. Orions combat level may be "determined by the physical cosmic body, he evolved on fourth world" but u know what? thats all that is relevant here 😱 .Because when Orion is placed in matches people are not referring to his mysterious "true abstract form scared" but rather the regularly seen "genetically stable body capable of housing prime celestials". Thats what matters here and our ur inane rationalizations ant change that. When Orion gets feats in that form to put him on abstract level and not top tier level then ur argument will hold weight. Right now its just silly fanboyish reaching,"nothing more".

As far as S'Ivaa goes he was capable of ripping apart the fabric of the cosmos, he was a multiversal threat. And Supes was augmented by the boomtube hence the reason he could contend with S'Ivaa, all this is NG v3. The collapsed universe was a feat in CO when he collapsed the "anti-life" universe. He arguably provided a 5th of the energy to destroy a reality with his Astro force. Point is, by current iterations the NG far more than superheroes, and in truth created super heroes (Aurakles) and introduced magic etc etc

So against S'ivaa Orion wasnt in the "physial cosmic body" he uses regularly ? Then once again irrelevant. And also please provide scans to the other incident u are referring to since explaining context is obviously beyond ur ability.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Asses things

Pervert.

Originally posted by Allankles
The rest of your post is completely pointless to thread I don't believe I-B has what it takes to beat Takion. Maybe it is a no-limit fallacy, but there's nothing in the comics that contradicts this estimation. The god-wave in Genesis was threatening the source itself and all reality, Takion was the only being in there capable of slowing it down (and buying the heroes valuable time).

More like there is nothing in comics that supports this estimation. U failed to provide even one feat that indicates such. Takion dying against the godwave is the only feat u even brought up at all. You even admit that ur argument is nothing but a no limit fallacy and still continue toeing the same line? brilliant.

He was also resurrected by the Source after the threat was neutralized. It was also stated that as long as the Source exists (or wishes him to exist) he cannot die.

If he cannot die what happened against the godwave? Ressurection isnt even an option on KMC im afraid. Not that it matters anyhow, KO is all thats needed for a KMC victory thankfully.

It's that simple really, anything beyond that must be construed as mere wishful thinking on your part, wanting I-B to be superior, well... tough luck son this is the nature of mythical match-ups.

lol this is probly the irony of the century. An argument admittedly based on no limit fallacy rather than feats and u say im the one practicing wishful thinking? Well the entire forum must be doing the same thing onsidering Takions tier placement. So um,.... tough luck "son"(lmao)

His connection to the Source once allowed him the capacity to command all reality simply by making contact with the Source Wall. He's an avatar of the spirit that embodies all things, that's more than just a statement in a character bio.

He physically made contact with the source wall? Good thing thats not available in KMC vs matches then.

He's an avatar of the spirit that embodies all things, that's more than just a statement in a character bio.

Irrelevant Gibberish.

Originally posted by Naija boy
What legitimate abstract powerlevel beings has supes punched out without any amps/contexts or circumstances surroundin the situation?
Saying "supes normally wins above his weight class" just wont cut it at all.

Wow! Again with the overly defensive talk. Throughout his history Supes has taken on beings (who on the face of it) are a tier (or several) above him.

He destroys a death god with will power alone, defeats Dominus a reality warper with a Kryptonian scientific technique. Saves the omniverse by his lone some doing some frequency shifting of Earth.

Tanks the magic of the 7 elder gods before defeating them (non of his JL team mates could take thier attack). In Seven caskets defeats the dsiciple who with the power of this 7 elder gods is able to own the other league members except Supes who defeats him, surviving his magical wave and its transmutation effects where people like Zauriel couldn't.

In his pre crisis days he was weakening the Anti- Monitor by himself, smashing planetoids against the universal devourer.

Originally posted by Allankles
In his pre crisis days he was weakening the Anti- Monitor by himself, smashing planetoids against the universal devourer.

That's nothing, Kara nearly killed him while Supes was on the ground bleeding. 😎

Originally posted by Allankles
Wow! Again with the overly defensive talk. Throughout his history Supes has taken on beings (who on the face of it) are a tier (or several) above him.

What do u have against context? I do not deny supes has taken on beings several tiers above him, So have other high heralds like surfer and thor. I asked u to show me examples of who supes has "punched out" (with his power alone) that are several tiers above him. quite simple really.

He destroys a death god with will power alone, defeats Dominus a reality warper with a Kryptonian scientific technique. Saves the omniverse by his lone some doing some frequency shifting of Earth.

Using willpower to destroy a death god. nice........and irrelvant. Doesnt help ur case. Defeated dominus with Tvo, nice...........and irrelevant. Saves the ominverse by doing some frequency shifting,nice and once again irrelevant. None of those incidents u mentioned can explain away supes matching up well with Orion or darkseid supposed abstracts in powerlevel using his punches and physical prowess. Not even close. Its akin to me mentioning a bunch of random high feats from silver surfer and thor in which they used different ways to defeat characters or achieve their goals and then trying to use it to justify their victory in another battle in which the fight itself went entirely differently from the aforementioned instances

Tanks the magic of the 7 elder gods before defeating them (non of his JL team mates could take thier attack). In Seven caskets defeats the dsiciple who with the power of this 7 elder gods is able to own the other league members except Supes who defeats him, surviving his magical wave and its transmutation effects where people like Zauriel couldn't.

How did he defeat said elder gods? did he punch them out? Heat vision them? freeze them? Damn whats so hard in explaining the context and exactly how it happened so we can know how it relates to the discussion.

Originally posted by Naija boy

If he cannot die what happened against the godwave? Ressurection isnt even an option on KMC im afraid. Not that it matters anyhow, KO is all thats needed for a KMC victory thankfully.

Ooo lala. He died because the Source was in jeopardy, it was explained in Genesis. The Source itself was dying, and just as this was confirmed, Takion also died. (Genesis # 3)

Originally posted by Naija boy
lol this is probly the irony of the century. An argument admittedly based on no limit fallacy rather than feats and u say im the one practicing wishful thinking? Well the entire forum must be doing the same thing onsidering Takions tier placement. So um,.... tough luck "son"(lmao)

The wishful thinking is in the fact that you want to ignore the comics in regards to this issue. Takion is one with the Source, he only died in Genesis because the Source itself was dying in Genesis. (Genesis 3)

Takion's death was coinciding with the Source's own imminent death in Genesis, quite clearly stated in Genesis 3.

Originally posted by Naija boy
He physically made contact with the source wall? Good thing thats not available in KMC vs matches then.

That was merely stated to emphasize how connected he is the Source, only Takion and Stayne as avatars can achieve this.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Irrelevant

Indeed. Takion vs I-B is completely irrelevant to this thread. If you're feeling up for a debate why not bump that thread?

Originally posted by Naija boy

Using willpower to destroy a death god. nice........and irrelvant. Doesnt help ur case. Defeated dominus with Tvo, nice...........and irrelevant. Saves the ominverse by doing some frequency shifting,nice and once again irrelevant. None of those incidents u mentioned can explain away supes matching up well with Orion or darkseid supposed abstracts in powerlevel using his punches and physical prowess. Not even close. Its akin to me mentioning a bunch of random high feats from silver surfer and thor in which they used different ways to defeat characters or achieve their goals and then trying to use it to justify their victory in another battle in which the fight itself went entirely differently from the aforementioned instances

[QUOTE=11739272]Originally posted by Naija boy
[B]How did he defeat said elder gods? did he punch them out? Heat vision them? freeze them? Damn whats so hard in explaining the context and exactly how it happened so we can know how it relates to the discussion.

He "punched them out" same way he punched out the Anti-Monitor and wrestled with Asmodel, and punched out Dominus in his avatar state. Same way he punched out the disciple. Hell even the S'Ivaa situation involved punching out. He used an IMP to punch out the shadow moon in a recent JLA. He's punched out of his supposed weight class many times, literally.

Using Supes to prove a "top tier" point is a no no, imo. He punches out of "top tier".

And just to throw in another little wrench in this top tier argument, it was stated in another comic that Supes power comes from harnessing pure entropy. And in another, he's invited to join the quintessence, a group of cosmic beings (skyfathers).

Originally posted by Allankles
Ooo lala. He died because the Source was in jeopardy, it was explained in Genesis. The Source itself was dying, and just as this was confirmed, Takion also died. (Genesis # 3)

We may be getting somewhere afterall, u finally answered a question posed., And if u had decided to read the entire portion of that post u would have seen e explain that the matter of "Takion dying" was irrelevant.

The wishful thinking is in the fact that you want to ignore the comics in regards to this issue. Takion is one with the Source, he only died in Genesis because the Source itself was dying in Genesis. (Genesis 3) Takion's death was coinciding with the Source's own imminent death in Genesis, quite clearly stated in Genesis 3.

Ignore what comics? Killing Takion as i said isnt needed. KO is enough.

That was merely stated to emphasize how connected he is the Source, only Takion and Stayne as avatars can achieve this.

Oh i see, u fet u needed to provide more irrelevant info about connection to the source. lulz

ndeed. Takion vs I-B is completely irrelevant to this thread. If you're feeling up for a debate why not bump that thread?

Er, ur the one who started with attempts to justify why Takion wins and proceeded to support it with nothing.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That's nothing, Kara nearly killed him while Supes was on the ground bleeding. 😎

Don't mess with Supergirl she was actually contending with Granny Goodness in her true form, when Supergirl was no more than the size of a bug compared to Goodness.

She stated that her powers come from her mind, not her muscle which went to explain how she was able to match a superhuman giant god for strength and durability.

Originally posted by Allankles
He "punched them out" same way he punched out the Anti-Monitor and wrestled with Asmodel, and punched out Dominus in his avatar state. Same way he punched out the disciple. Hell even the S'Ivaa situation involved punching out. He used an IMP to punch out the shadow moon in a recent JLA. He's punched out of his supposed weight class many times, literally.

Using Supes to prove a "top tier" point is a no no, imo. He punches out of "top tier".

And just to throw in another little wrench in this top tier argument, it was stated in another comic that Supes power comes from harnessing pure entropy. And in another, he's invited to join the quintessence, a group of cosmic beings (skyfathers).

Punching out the antimonitor? didnt u mention that being precrisis?. *sigh*-"context". He wrestled with asmodel briefly, wasnt that asmodel weaker than in his original form? -"context", didnt u just mention him defeating Dominus through Tvo-"context". Didnt u also just mention the S'ivaa incident being possible because Supes was amped by a boomtube?-"context"

All uve done is mention numerous instances that all had specific context surrounding them and conveniently left said context out.

Being invited to join a group of skyfathers is great. Too bad his feats dont put him on that level at all (his powerset alone is to limited anyways).

Originally posted by Allankles
And just to throw in another little wrench in this top tier argument, it was stated in another comic that Supes power comes from harnessing pure entropy. And in another, he's invited to join the quintessence, a group of cosmic beings (skyfathers).

Originally posted by Allankles
Don't mess with Supergirl she was actually contending with Granny Goodness in her true form, when Supergirl was no more than the size of a bug compared to Goodness.

She stated that her powers come from her mind, not her muscle which went to explain how she was able to match a superhuman giant god for strength and durability.

Was this back in the PC days? IIRC Kryptonians from Earth-Two got their powers psionically and weren't affected by red sun, whereas Kryptonians from Earth-One got their powers from the red sun....But erm, Kara was from Earth-One, right?

I probably have this wrong. And I'm confused. lol

Originally posted by Naija boy
Punching out the antimonitor? didnt u mention that being precrisis?. *sigh*-"context". He wrestled with asmodel briefly, wasnt that asmodel weaker than in his original form? -"context", didnt u just mention him defeating Dominus through Tvo-"context". Didnt u also just mention the S'ivaa incident being possible because Supes was amped by a boomtube?-"context"

All uve done is mention numerous instances that all had specific context surrounding them and conveniently left said context out.

The Asmodel wrestling match was also while Superman had an amp. 🙂

Originally posted by Enyalus
The Asmodel wrestling match was also while Superman had an amp. 🙂

Whew more context left out again 😱

P.S-whats the original match in this thread again?

Originally posted by Naija boy
P.S-whats the original match in this thread again?

High Father
Darkseid
Infinity Man
Takion
Orion (Full gear)

VS

Aron Rogue Watcher
Magus (Peak)
WOL Morg
Exiles Silver Surfer
WW3 Black Adam

No time manipulation.

😛

Originally posted by Naija boy
Assess things fairly? Are u taking urself seriously at all? More nonsense. You pick and choose in posts, blatantly dodge evry single challenge and question posed to u, try to replace feats with conjecture,pitifully attempt to pass off no limit fallacies as arguments and u have the audacity to tell me im not assesing things fairly? 😱. Complete rubbish. Abstract DOES NOT suggest above top tier when the person has feats which indicate his being top tier. Maybe it does in ur little world but it certainly doesnt on KMC. End of story.

I can't believe I didn't see this. Abstract is above top tier. This isn't a one to one inane point about combat feats. But a statement of the true nature of Orion. A characters power level extends well beyond his combat feats. Are you going to say Phantom Stranger is top tier or a Guardian like Ganthet is top tier? Their power isn't determined merely by combat, the same thing applies to the NG, they are only as strong physically as their bodies allow.

Orion is not a key stone like Batman he's actually an abstract.

Originally posted by Naija boy
What a crock of shit. Orions combat level may be "determined by the physical cosmic body, he evolved on fourth world" but u know what? thats all that is relevant here 😱

I'm aware of this, combat is what matters here. But a character's overall level is more than just combat capability. Desaad is hardly noted for his combat, yet he is a true god with words and deeds done in his name, if his body dies he takes another one.

He's had at least two bodies between 7 soldiers and FC. What I'm trying to say is that these gods are bigger than top tier (they are more than mere super heroes). This is made quite clear, the character is far more than combat.

So I've understood what's been said, I'm just looking at "abstract" as far more than a simple show of combat. I guess the forums tier list is about combat in the end (and shouldn't be anymore than that).

Originally posted by Naija boy
So against S'ivaa Orion wasnt in the "physial cosmic body" he uses regularly ? Then once again irrelevant.

Orion was in his supposed true form, unreduced by a boom tube in that particular instance. All of this is ultimately irrelevant, see above.

Originally posted by Naija boy
And also please provide scans to the other incident u are referring to since explaining context is obviously beyond ur ability.

Which other incident, you're talking about cosmic odyssey? I'm not using idiosyncrasies here, so I find it laughable when I see you tell me explaining context is beyond my ability.

What's difficult to understand about collapsing a reality/dimension? I've given you the relevant context with that one comment, I don't have to give you the whole run down of the Anti-life entity's plot relevance.

Point is Orion accompanied by DS, Highfather, Fate and Etrigan briefly contribute their individual powers to a spell that annihilates a dimension. I find it ridiculous that you can't simply grasp that he contributed a 5th of the power to destroy a reality.

I have the scans somewhere but giving you the issue no is easier, so it's cosmic odyssey no # 4.

Originally posted by Allankles
I can't believe I didn't see this. Abstract is above top tier. This isn't a one to one inane point about combat feats. But a statement of the true nature of Orion. A characters power level extends well beyond his combat feats. Are you going to say Phantom Stranger is top tier or a Guardian like Ganthet is top tier? Their power is determined merely by combat, the same thing applies to the NG, they are only as strong physically as their bodies allow.

Orion is not a key stone like Batman he's actually an abstract.

To be "abstract" in combat level ala KMC tier rating, You need to have feats to prove it. I have been talking about that particular form of abstract(KMC powerlevel) from the get go. Because thats all that is relevant here. U on the other hand inrodued ur "New Gods are abstracts" trash and tried to compare to use it to justify ur ridiculous Takion vs IB argument knowing fully well that it had no relationship with the type of powerlevel i was talking about.

Orion is an absract whose physical body enables him to be a top tier. Therefore by KMC combat powerlevels he is a top tier. End of story case closed.

m aware of this, combat is what matters here. But a character's overall level is more than just combat capability. Desaad is hardly noted for his combat, yet he is a true god with words and deeds done in his name, if his body dies he takes another one. He's had at least two bodies between 7 soldiers and FC. What I'm trying to say is that these gods are bigger than top tier (they are more than mere super heroes). This is made quite clear, the character is far more than combat. So I've understood what's been said, I'm just looking at "abstract" as far more than a simple show of combat. I guess the forums tier list is about combat in the end (and shouldn't be anymore than that).

New Gods, "overall level" had nothing to do with this argument in the first place. Ur the one who introduced it when it was absolutely irrelevant (which u have thankfully now admitted). Combat powerlevel is all thats relevant and ive been saying it from the very beginning. End of stroy, case closed.

Orion was in his supposed true form, unreduced by a boom tube in that particular instance.

this is ultimately irrelevant

Yup. End of story case closed.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Whew more context left out again 😱

P.S-whats the original match in this thread again?

Actually Supes was physically less impressive than under normal conditions and it was already explained that it was feat within his normal strength level. 😎

Originally posted by Allankles
Which other incident, you're talking about cosmic odyssey? I'm not using idiosyncrasies here, so I find it laughable when I see you tell me explaining context is beyond my ability.

What's difficult to understand about collapsing a reality/dimension? I've given you the relevant context with that one comment, I don't have to give you the whole run down of the Anti-life entity's plot relevance.

Point is Orion (accompanied by DS, Highfather, Fate and Etrigan) briefly contribute their individual powers to a spell that annihilates a dimension. I find it ridiculous that you can't simply grasp that he contributed a 5th of the power to destroy a reality.

I have the scans, somewhere but giving you the issue no is easier, so it's cosmic odyssey no # 4.

Well considering the amount of times u left out context already, and the fact that u urself claimed he "arguably" performed the feat. There is already huge room for doubt as to what actualy happened and its relevance.

Also did u say he contributed his power to a "spell" that then destroyed a dimension? If so that already suggests that it the actual spell played more of a role. Though i'll be sure to check the issue.