Thanos W/IG vs. Darkseid w/ ALE

Originally posted by Allankles
This is true but you missed the initial context.

Morrison: "In Jack Kirby’s Fourth World books (which every right thinking human being should read, if they haven’t already), it’s pretty clear that the New Gods have known about Earth for a long time and in JLA ten years ago, I suggested that part of their interest in us was rooted in the fact that [b]Earth was destined to become the cradle of a new race of ‘Fifth World’ super-divinities - an eventuality Darkseid is eager to prevent from occurring."

So DS was trying to prevent this eventuality, but the Radion poisoning and the Black Racer stood in his way.[/b]

Originally posted by Allankles
Also the Miracle Machine is a motherbox with a single function. It was said to be the a perfect tool to destroy Supes and the heroes. DS could easily corrupt Supes wish, of course he got taken away by the Black Racer right before Supes made the wish.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

The Miracle Machine has nothing to do with motherboxes. It's refined Controller/Oan technology. I do agree that the Miracle Machine has only one function: turn thought into reality. A working Miracle Machine in anybody's hands is the perfect tool for anything. It's speculation that Darkseid could have used it and quite frankly, impossible. The Miracle Machine still lacked Element X. Superman detected and retrieved it when he adjusted to the resulting silence after destroying DS' essence.

Let's not over analyze things. Element X is a NG term remember? It has only ever been used by the NG's, designed by Apokolips science and Himon, who was tricked by DS into completing the x-element. Supes used the x-element in Metron's chair to make it work.

It was a type of motherbox (there are several types). It was designed by the controllers but it has a relation to Metron, even having the motherbox symbol at its front.

It was only dangerous to Supes because of its single function, a wish would easily be corrupted.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I am aware of that context. I am also aware of how that context neither changes that Darkseid was embarassed by Batman, nor reduces the exposure of just how overinflated his grasp on reality was. Even Morrison even had to stick a pin in his balloon. DS' statements are not reliable. They are not intrinsically wrong in nature, but in light of what he's said and what's actually happened, using them as evidence in a debate is dubious.

It's hardly dubious when its a description of a piece of technology. Are you going to argue about fictional terminologies? Take a step back before you start on this type of tangents. What's dubious about terminology? we're talking about a guy who knows everything about abstract technology.

Originally posted by manx422
ALE>IG

The Miracle Machine was not the original, it was a copy created by pooling all of Earth's resources and a few other components like the X Element.

And because of that, it could only be used once. Darkseid using it was a non-issue.

Darkseid's statements are reliable to a point. You have to separate the truth from his perspective. Earth being the 5th world is something the new gods were very aware of. The mistake was that he was destined to rule it.

.............Still got damn close though.

One more thing, it was not the Omega Finder Beams that got him. He was already dying. The problem was the singularity was beyond the reach of light and death.

Allankles: It's not a motherbox. Reread Final Crisis #6, where Braniac describes it as Controller-refined Guardian technology from the future. It's ignorant to rely completely on DS' snide comment about it to conclude it is a motherbox, when Braniac already revealed its origins and when the veracity of DS' comments have already been upended by Grant Morrison.

All your attempts to sidetrack don't change the crux of the debate of the original issue: Miracle Machine > Motherboxxx. Any suggestion otherwise ignores on-panel feats.

As for your sidetracking assertions regarding Element X, it still doesn't change the fact that you were incorrect when you suggested that DS would have used it. It wasn't finished by that point. And reliance on prior stories was decidely something we both should understand as being highly suspect. People have rightly called out DS on never demonstrating your oft-argued mythical levels of multiversal power by relying on previous stories which show he has no such influence.

Accidentally forgetting this for your convenience because you have nothing else constructive to offer for rebuttal's sake is self-serving and a double-standard. Drop prior history or accept it. Your repeated selectiveness reveals again how strained your interpretations are.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Allankles: It's not a motherbox. Reread Final Crisis #6, where Braniac describes it as Controller-refined Guardian technology from the future. It's ignorant to rely completely on DS' snide comment about it to conclude it is a motherbox, when Braniac already revealed its origins and when the veracity of DS' comments have already been upended by Grant Morrison.

All your attempts to sidetrack don't change the crux of the debate of the original issue: Miracle Machine > Motherboxxx. Any suggestion otherwise ignores on-panel feats.

As for your sidetracking assertions regarding Element X, it still doesn't change the fact that you were incorrect when you suggested that DS would have used it. It wasn't finished by that point. And reliance on prior stories was decidely something we both should understand as being highly suspect. People have rightly called out DS on never demonstrating your oft-argued mythical levels of multiversal power by relying on previous stories which show he has no such influence.

Accidentally forgetting this for your convenience because you have nothing else constructive to offer for rebuttal's sake is self-serving and a double-standard. Drop prior history or accept it. Your repeated selectiveness reveals again how strained your interpretations are.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Allankles: It's not a motherbox. Reread Final Crisis #6, where Braniac describes it as Controller-refined Guardian technology from the future. It's ignorant to rely completely on DS' snide comment about it to conclude it is a motherbox, when Braniac already revealed its origins and when the veracity of DS' comments have already been upended by Grant Morrison.

All your attempts to sidetrack don't change the crux of the debate of the original issue: Miracle Machine > Motherboxxx. Any suggestion otherwise ignores on-panel feats.

As for your sidetracking assertions regarding Element X, it still doesn't change the fact that you were incorrect when you suggested that DS would have used it. It wasn't finished by that point. And reliance on prior stories was decidely something we both should understand as being highly suspect. People have rightly called out DS on never demonstrating your oft-argued mythical levels of multiversal power by relying on previous stories which show he has no such influence.

Accidentally forgetting this for your convenience because you have nothing else constructive to offer for rebuttal's sake is self-serving and a double-standard. Drop prior history or accept it. Your repeated selectiveness reveals again how strained your interpretations are.

To be fair Grant was not talking about the Motherboxxxs in that Q. We all know the Miracle Machine is not a Motherboxxx and Darkseid was merely only comparing it to a poorly put together and made Motherboxxx which can only make 1 wish, this puts it far above the Miracle Machine. The Life Equation heals and gives hope to the hopeless something that the Miracle Machine did when it fixed the crack.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Allankles: It's not a motherbox. Reread Final Crisis #6, where Braniac describes it as Controller-refined Guardian technology from the future. It's ignorant to rely completely on DS' snide comment about it to conclude it is a motherbox, when Braniac already revealed its origins and when the veracity of DS' comments have already been upended by Grant Morrison.

All your attempts to sidetrack don't change the crux of the debate of the original issue: Miracle Machine > Motherboxxx. Any suggestion otherwise ignores on-panel feats.

You're being so obtuse right now it's not even funny. I don't care if it is a motherboxx or otherwise, and don't think Morrison's intent was to say it was a motherboxx, but the idea is that Braniac, Supes et al (even the controllers) don't fully understand the depth of what the Miracle machine was.

Supes creates the machine without a full understanding of what it is, creating a copy on everything he remembers about the design of the original.

That's why DS describes it as cargo-cult motherboxx (i hope you know what that means?), this has no bearing on DS' over inflation of his importance in the grand story.

As kevdude has mentioned his snide comments of the Miracle Machine device, are a technical appraisal they have nothing to do with his overinflated view of his place in the grand story. What would describing it as a motherboxx do for his ego?

you do realize that motherboxx have unique functions? And the original machine has the motherbox symbols that Metron uses at its front.

Your coming off like this was just news to you, as far his multiversal powers are concerned, Morrison already commented that he was bringing down the multiverse structure after Batman poisoned him, destroying continuities as he sunk into the blackhole of creation, spiting his enemies.

Originally posted by kevdude
To be fair Grant was not talking about the Motherboxxxs in that Q. We all know the Miracle Machine is not a Motherboxxx and Darkseid was merely only comparing it to a poorly put together and made Motherboxxx which can only make 1 wish, this puts it far above the Miracle Machine. The Life Equation heals and gives hope to the hopeless something that the Miracle Machine did when it fixed the crack.

Exactly, DS was comparing it to a poorly designed MB. As far as the life equation is concerned Mister Miracle and Metron already possessed it as well. So again, where's the issue of debate here? MB's can alter the laws of physics too, some even becoming non-corporeal and merging with the souls of their owners, others being omniscient.

Their purpose is defined by their creators powers of invention.

Originally posted by kevdude
To be fair Grant was not talking about the Motherboxxxs in that Q. We all know the Miracle Machine is not a Motherboxxx and Darkseid was merely only comparing it to a poorly put together and made Motherboxxx which can only make 1 wish, this puts it far above the Miracle Machine. The Life Equation heals and gives hope to the hopeless something that the Miracle Machine did when it fixed the crack.

Originally posted by Allankles
Also the Miracle Machine is a motherbox with a single function.

Originally posted by Allankles
It was a type of motherbox (there are several types). It was designed by the controllers but it has a relation to Metron, even having the motherbox symbol at its front.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Also, IIRC, I never saw a motherbox symbol on it.

Look at the centre of the machine, it's a carbon copy of Metron's motherbox circuit.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e3/MiracleMachine.PNG

http://jla.freewebpages.org/gallery/metron.jpg

^ The center? I'm trying to see what you're trying to see, help me out here:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ The center? I'm trying to see what you're trying to see, help me out here:

The beam at the center, the bar across, the two circles on each end of the frame. This was already confirmed it's the only reason I even noticed it.

EDIT: And of course the circle and the centre resistor.

^ Are you equating Metron's circuit/tatoo/weapon of the gods to a symbol that represents a motherbox?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Are you equating Metron's circuit/tatoo/weapon of the gods to a symbol that represents a motherbox?

That's Metron's Motherbox, the circuitry on his suit.

Originally posted by Allankles
This was already confirmed it's the only reason I even noticed it.

Originally posted by Mindset
Where?

DC database.

The fan made site?

Originally posted by Allankles
That's Metron's Motherbox, the circuitry on his suit.