Originally posted by quanchi112You're arguing semantics about what concludes a fight and what concludes a victory. Just because Odin didn't get to vanquish Thanos does not mean he didn't win. There are plenty of fights between comic characters that do not end with a knock-out, BFR or death. There are plenty of fights though, that clearly end with one side winning to such a degree and subjecting the other to such a world of crap, that you cannot fathom the character losing. That's what happened here. You won't let yourself see that and you're entitled to your opinion. But don't expect people to take your semantics, diversions and fallacious arguments seriously. Whether the fight concluded or not, is semantics. The fight itself was conclusive about who would have won. Therefore, Odin won.
Odin did not win. He was winning, but there was no victor.I don't care how Odin has fared against other opponents when we have an altercation between these two. Thanos was a peer of Odin and the fact that Thanos wasn't defeated only further proves my case.
Thanos is not a peer of Odin. I proved to you Odin wasn't going all out. I don't care if you prove Thanos wasn't going all out. The fight was plain and clear. Thanos proved his durability in the fight. Thanos proved his will in the fight. He also proved something else. He proved his inferiority to Odin in the fight.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The questions still stands, what happens between the comics? Is the time gap quantified? Valkryie was knocked unconscious by the time Thanos placed Thor in the forceblock at the end of Silver Surfer #88. Yet, the first scan of the next comic shows her to be conscious and defiant. Some time had passed obviously. How much?Quanchi112: You're asking people to prove a negative to distract the inevitable conclusion that you and everybody else has to make. Odin won the fight. Thanos lost. That is what is clearly and plainly depicted in their fight. Whether they were both going all out, or both using a modest portion of their might or fooling around with each other doesn't matter. Odin won. Thanos lost.
Furthermore, suggesting that Odin was going all out is nonsense. He is gradually upping the levels of his attacks throughout the fight. Pimpslap, handblasts, meteor swarm, single Gungnir blast, and stream of Gungnir blasts. If you've seen Odin's fights in the past, the use of Gungnir does not represent the peak of his attacks. Not even close. In almost every fight Odin's been in whereupon he clearly uses his full might, he grows giant-size and/or exclaims he is using his full might. That wasn't present in his fight with Thanos. Therefore, despite the fact that you improperly asked people to prove a negative, it is clear Odin was not going all-out. Not even close.
Was Thanos going all out? Who cares. From a comparative viewpoint, it really doesn't matter. Because Odin clearly was not. And if, as you want everyone to do, assume outright that Thanos too, was using only a modest portion of his might, then their fight was a situation where all things were considered equal. And while Thanos' durability was impressive, he only managed to weather Odin's attacks and was supremely ineffectual in his assaults. So that when you theorize scenarios whereupon they both increase their efforts respectively and proportionally, it's still the same result. And Odin's peak has far outstripped Thanos' peak in all measures and all respects. That's the bottom-line.
Please show me these scans that show odin going out all and exclaiming he's doing so. I would like to the scans of who Odin is fighting and I would like to see him exclaiming he's going all out or using all his might as you paraphrased.
Also, the notion that he wasn't even close to going all out is just speculation on your part. You have no basis to prove how much Odin was exerting in his fight with thanos and furthermore with any of his fights. So, your whole.. he wasn't even close is purely speculation on your part with no substantial viable proof to back it up. While to the contrary the comic seems to make clear that he was out for the kill and certainly giving a good effort. He said he was going to kill Thanos, Asgard was being invaded, his son was trapped, he commented on how Thanos power source is similar to his (thus he knew he was a worth opponent), he pulled out gungir. All of this makes it quite clear that Odin was putting forth good effort. How much is up for debate. Was he going all out.... probably not. Was he putting forth a good amount of effort imo yes.
Let me ask you this one..
1. Does collateral damage in terms of Odin a factual way to say how much somebody is trying? Aren't comics and writers drawn and written differently so that one writer could be trying to convey he's giving a lot of effort and thus huge amounts of collateral damage while another might not convey such damage but still intend him to be giving good effort. Is this possible?
2. Odin sleep has been brought up.... Again so you and others are saying all writers convey aspects of all characters the same? There is no way a writer could use the odin sleep as needed when exerting himself while another writer for whatever reason didn't include that? It's not possible that the fight wasn't finished and thus Odin might have needed sleep had it continued because clearly he was trying. However, the question is do all writers convey all characters the same way?
3. Didn't that fight between Thanos and Odin look more like a fight just to fight on Thanos part while Odin was out for the kill. I think that clearly speaks to Odin trying harder then thanos but that is neither here nor there. The point is to me Thanos wasn't even fighting to the peak of his ability either. His force fields were no where to be found and was just taking the blasts head on. It's was almost like he was just exchanging blows with Odin without much thought to actually using all his resources or all his efforts. That seemed to be quite clear to me you can't see that as also a possibility?
Point is Odin was winning that fight and I believe would've won had it continued. However, Thanos has been upgraded since and wasn't in his peak condition for that fight or fighting to his peak as I pointed out. I even believe in a rematch Odin would still take a slight majority.. I would give it 6(7)/10
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Nothing I have stated is incorrect or exaggerated.
You're arguing semantics about what concludes a fight and what concludes a victory. Just because Odin didn't get to vanquish Thanos does not mean he didn't win. There are plenty of fights between comic characters that do not end with a knock-out, BFR or death. There are plenty of fights though, that clearly end with one side winning to such a degree and subjecting the other to such a world of crap, that you cannot fathom the character losing. That's what happened here. You won't let yourself see that and you're entitled to your opinion. But don't expect people to take your semantics, diversions and fallacious arguments seriously. Whether the fight concluded or not, is semantics. The fight itself was conclusive about who would have won. Therefore, Odin won.Thanos is not a peer of Odin. I proved to you Odin wasn't going all out. I don't care if you prove Thanos wasn't going all out. The fight was plain and clear. Thanos proved his durability in the fight. Thanos proved his will in the fight. He also proved something else. He proved his inferiority to Odin in the fight.
Here are a few scans to further cement my case.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/BloodThunder-256.jpg
Odin's first blast has virtually no effect on Thanos.
Here warlock corrects gamora. Like you, she didn't think that Thanos could stand in there with Odin because he lacked the power to do so. Warlock said his upper limits remain to be seen and that we were gong to find out.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/BloodThunder-257.jpg
Here, in this scan Odin is shocked that he remains among the living let alone still in the fight. It is the first time Odin prematurely underestimates Thanos.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/BloodThunder-260.jpg
Here is yet another premature boast of victory over Thanos. It seems like Odin is severely underestimating Thanos and hasn't learned his lesson.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/BloodThunder-266.jpg
Here and for the final time Odin underestimates Thanos and thinks him to be defeated. Even with the false sense of triumph Odin pays him a huge compliment. He says it has been eons since he has fought someone the likes of Thanos.This is before he even realizes that the fight isn't over and that Thanos refuses to give up.
The scans speak for themselves. Odin was indeed winning the fight, but Thanos is still a peer of Odin's. How the fight would have ended is anyone's guess.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiHow much is not up for debate. Only those who never read Odin's fights think it's up for debate. People act like pulling Gungnir out signalled Odin was in trouble or was getting serious. Nonsense. Give me a few days and I'll will present you with more than several fights that show what Odin going all out looks like. It's clear that you've never seen them, so I'll humor this request. What I ask in return is that you cut down on the conclusive tones of your posts and assertions when you clearly do not have a sufficient basis to do so.
Please show me these scans that show odin going out all and exclaiming he's doing so. I would like to the scans of who Odin is fighting and I would like to see him exclaiming he's going all out or using all his might as you paraphrased.Also, the notion that he wasn't even close to going all out is just speculation on your part. You have no basis to prove how much Odin was exerting in his fight with thanos and furthermore with any of his fights. So, your whole.. he wasn't even close is purely speculation on your part with no substantial viable proof to back it up. While to the contrary the comic seems to make clear that he was out for the kill and certainly giving a good effort. He said he was going to kill Thanos, Asgard was being invaded, his son was trapped, he commented on how Thanos power source is similar to his (thus he knew he was a worth opponent), he pulled out gungir. All of this makes it quite clear that Odin was putting forth good effort. How much is up for debate. Was he going all out.... probably not. Was he putting forth a good amount of effort imo yes.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi1. Lack of collateral damage is never dispositive of the scope of the fight or the relative might of either combatant. Presence of collateral damage is positive proof of the scope/might displayed.
Let me ask you this one..1. Does collateral damage in terms of Odin a factual way to say how much somebody is trying? Aren't comics and writers drawn and written differently so that one writer could be trying to convey he's giving a lot of effort and thus huge amounts of collateral damage while another might not convey such damage but still intend him to be giving good effort. Is this possible?
2. Odin sleep has been brought up.... Again so you and others are saying all writers convey aspects of all characters the same? There is no way a writer could use the odin sleep as needed when exerting himself while another writer for whatever reason didn't include that? It's not possible that the fight wasn't finished and thus Odin might have needed sleep had it continued because clearly he was trying. However, the question is do all writers convey all characters the same way?
3. Didn't that fight between Thanos and Odin look more like a fight just to fight on Thanos part while Odin was out for the kill. I think that clearly speaks to Odin trying harder then thanos but that is neither here nor there. The point is to me Thanos wasn't even fighting to the peak of his ability either. His force fields were no where to be found and was just taking the blasts head on. It's was almost like he was just exchanging blows with Odin without much thought to actually using all his resources or all his efforts. That seemed to be quite clear to me you can't see that as also a possibility?
2. Your inquiry is misplaced. You're arguing for a possibility that the writers did not know or did not bother to portray the Odinsleep. Furthermore, like quanchi112, you're asking me to prove a negative: "Prove Odin didn't need to sleep." He didn't, in fact, sleep. He only goes into Odinsleeps when he needs to. If he didn't, then that presupposes he didn't need to. Why do I have to prove anything further? The burden's on you to show, despite the lack of Odinsleep, he did exert himself mightily. But it's obvious why you resort to asking me to prove a negative, because you have absolutely no evidence to suggest he was going all out. Not even one tiny iota. Odin didn't pause, didn't huff and puff, didn't take a knee, didn't do anything to suggest he was even close to being tired.
3. Another misplaced inquiry. Arguing for possibilities does nothing to enhance your argument. I don't have to prove it's impossible that Odin was trying harder than Thanos. In an argument where the evidentiary scales are in my favor, it's up to you to prove that your possibility is more than remote. That it rises to the level of the probable. Only then does it carry any weight. Stop shifting the burden. I'm not going to prove a negative.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiThanos has no feats to match Odin's best. In a direct confrontation, Thanos proved to be vastly inferior. And despite this ambiguously unquantified... (or is it clearly unquantified?) amp you continue to bring up, Thanos, again, still has no feats to match Odin's best. 6/10 is a slight majority suggesting that two characters are relative peers. You have no evidence to suggest this and you argue around all the evidence that clearly suggests the opposite with semantics.
Point is Odin was winning that fight and I believe would've won had it continued. However, Thanos has been upgraded since and wasn't in his peak condition for that fight or fighting to his peak as I pointed out. I even believe in a rematch Odin would still take a slight majority.. I would give it 6(7)/10
Originally posted by quanchi112No. It's not anyone's guess. And everyone else who looks at those scans understands that it proves exactly the opposite of your conclusions. That Odin was superior in every respect and that Thanos was clearly not Odin's peer. It's plain and clear. I couldn't care less about your motivations in thinking otherwise. You haven't brought up a single salient point to support your argument.
Nothing I have stated is incorrect or exaggerated. Here are a few scans to further cement my case: http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/BloodThunder-256.jpgOdin's first blast has virtually no effect on Thanos. Here warlock corrects gamora. Like you, she didn't think that Thanos could stand in there with Odin because he lacked the power to do so. Warlock said his upper limits remain to be seen and that we were gong to find out: http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/BloodThunder-257.jpg
Here, in this scan Odin is shocked that he remains among the living let alone still in the fight. It is the first time Odin prematurely underestimates Thanos: http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/BloodThunder-260.jpg
Here is yet another premature boast of victory over Thanos. It seems like Odin is severely underestimating Thanos and hasn't learned his lesson: http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/BloodThunder-266.jpg
Here and for the final time Odin underestimates Thanos and thinks him to be defeated. Even with the false sense of triumph Odin pays him a huge compliment. He says it has been eons since he has fought someone the likes of Thanos.[B]This is before he even realizes that the fight isn't over and that Thanos refuses to give up.
The scans speak for themselves. Odin was indeed winning the fight, but Thanos is still a peer of Odin's. How the fight would have ended is anyone's guess. [/B]
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Yes, I have. You keep wanting to reference other Odin fights to prove he held back in this story. That's horrible logic and has no basis for what the writer had in mind for this particular fight.
No. It's not anyone's guess. And everyone else who looks at those scans understands that it proves exactly the opposite of your conclusions. That Odin was superior in every respect and that Thanos was clearly not Odin's peer. It's plain and clear. I couldn't care less about your motivations in thinking otherwise. You haven't brought up a single salient point to support your argument.
Odin only gained an edge when he brought gungir into the fray. Like I have been saying nothing I have said it twisting anything. You are guilty of what you accuse me and thanosi of doing. You are claiming Odin creamed him while holding back. That would be true if you were talking about the Surfer or Drax. You ignore character's dialogue and the circumstances and situation of this comic to pain a picture that Odin wasn't even trying and that he held back by referencing other stories and downplaying Thanos.
Originally posted by quanchi112The only evidence you offered to suggest that Odin wasn't holding back his full might, was his bringing out Gungnir. Had you read anything of Odin, you'd know Gungnir is not a signal that he's going all out. In fact, in the vast majority of his hardest fights, Gungnir is a complete non-factor if it even makes an appearance.
Yes, I have. You keep wanting to reference other Odin fights to prove he held back in this story. That's horrible logic and has no basis for what the writer had in mind for this particular fight.Odin only gained an edge when he brought gungir into the fray. Like I have been saying nothing I have said it twisting anything. You are guilty of what you accuse me and thanosi of doing. You are claiming Odin creamed him while holding back. That would be true if you were talking about the Surfer or Drax. You ignore character's dialogue and the circumstances and situation of this comic to pain a picture that Odin wasn't even trying and that he held back by referencing other stories and downplaying Thanos.
Furthermore, your'e using straw-man argumentation. I never said Odin was lollygagging through the fight. As far as I see, he was using a modest portion of his might. And moving forward from that assumption, I've compared Thanos' performance when (i) you assume Thanos wasn't going all out either, or (ii) other people assume Thanos was going all out. I've done this several times. You continue to divert the inquiry with semantics. It doesn't matter if they were both going all out or they were both being modest in their exertions. Odin was clearly superior to Thanos in every which way all things considered equal. Because the fight portrayed that conclusively, an actual conclusion to the fight is unnecessary for this statement to be true: Odin wins.
Originally posted by Silent MasterYou asked for my opinion. Odin has never been stated as to go all out in any comic. By that rationale he never has. It's always speculation as to whether or not he goes all out.
You "backed up" your reasoning with opinion and speculation. none of which makes my above quote untrue.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I never said that gungir was proof that he was going all out. So, I don't know where you are getting this from. I said he only gained an advantage when it was introduced into the fight. That is true.
The only evidence you offered to suggest that Odin wasn't holding back his full might, was his bringing out Gungnir. Had you read anything of Odin, you'd know Gungnir is not a signal that he's going all out. In fact, in the vast majority of his hardest fights, Gungnir is a complete non-factor if it even makes an appearance.Furthermore, your'e using straw-man argumentation. I never said Odin was lollygagging through the fight. As far as I see, he was using a modest portion of his might. And moving forward from that assumption, I've compared Thanos' performance when (i) you assume Thanos wasn't going all out either, or (ii) other people assume Thanos was going all out. I've done this several times. You continue to divert the inquiry with semantics. It doesn't matter if they were both going all out or they were both being modest in their exertions. Odin was clearly superior to Thanos in every which way all things considered equal. Because the fight portrayed that conclusively, an actual conclusion to the fight is unnecessary for this statement to be true: Odin wins.
I never said that Thanos was winning this fight at any point in time. I have a problem with the fact that you see him not as a peer of Odin for this fight and ignore Odin's own words. Odin clearly respected him and saw him as a peer. The rest we have both been over and over again.
Originally posted by quanchi112Then you admit you offered no evidence and only a baseless opinion. Fine.
I never said that gungir was proof that he was going all out. So, I don't know where you are getting this from. I said he only gained an advantage when it was introduced into the fight. That is true.
Originally posted by quanchi112Odin did not see him as his peer. You have absolutely no evidence to suggest that Thanos is his peer. Your brave and final declarations don't make your opinion any less ridiculous. If you're here just to offer your opinions whilst ignoring evidence, fine. But you're posturing like you're debating and you're not. All you've done is ignore evidence, twist words, divert arguments and rely on semantics. Effort without substance is still insubstantial.
I never said that Thanos was winning this fight at any point in time. I have a problem with the fact that you see him not as a peer of Odin for this fight and ignore Odin's own words. Odin clearly respected him and saw him as a peer. The rest we have both been over and over again.
Originally posted by quanchi112Odin has been stated and portrayed to go all out in comics. Saying he hasn't evinces a clear lack of knowledge on your part. Unfortunately, I don't have my scans on me, so I know your baseless assertions will continue to pollute this thread for pages before it stops. Such is life.
You asked for my opinion. Odin has never been stated as to go all out in any comic. By that rationale he never has. It's always speculation as to whether or not he goes all out.
