Juyo vs Makashi - Maul vs Dooku (lightsaber only)

Started by Borbarad9 pages

But as the great Faunus has explicitely mentioned the higher level canon: Who decides if the movie [that we can just interprete anyways, based on our own eyes] contradicts the novel, Faunus? You? To stay with our example here: The RotS movie doesn't make the Jedi accompanying Windu look too great, does it? To me some of the "best swordsman" the Jedi Order has produced, should at least be able to move an inch, instead of waiting several seconds before getting cut into pieces. Because a lack of reaction and speed certainly aren't signs of a good swordsman.

But of course, we can simply ignore that point, because we have the novel, that states they are simply great. Oh yes, we know that Mace didn't just bring the "B-Team", because Lucas said so himself. "You have to be Mace or Yoda...".

Urm. Wait a second. What? Where does Lucas refute the idea that those three belong to the "B-Team"? He, in fact, makes them the "B-Team" by stating who the "A-Team" is: Mace and Yoda (and Anakin if he hadn't been injured on Mustafar) and - because he puts him in the same league, Sidious. And even if you'd like to ignore that "interpretation" of the statement: Lucas makes it pretty clear that there is a giant gap between those two Jedi, Sidious and anybody else. So how can people from the "anybody else" department be "some of the greatest / best / finest" duellist of the Jedi Order while, at the same time, not even being remotely able to survive against one of those that Lucas views as "the best"? Does that make any sense?

I might, on a sidenote, point out pertitio principii #2 commited by Mr. Eminence: Assuming that the statement in the novel is right, while it seems to contradict what happens in the movie, and justifying this idea by stating that the novel has to be right, because it's canon. Awesomeness incarnated.


No, that was very much an OOU explanation for what you figure should be happening in-universe based on a statement [which I'd like to see] by Leland Chee.

Straw man #6:
Faunus can pierce my skull with his gaze and read my thoughts while being several thousand miles away. The sad thing is, that this special ability comes with the inability to read my posts. Let me just quote myself again with some nice bold letters to emphasize words that I, apparently, just added to the text at random:


Excuse me, Faunus. According to Leland Chee, the action depicted on screen could happen far faster in the actual SWU. When Anakin sees Mace and Sidious fighting, he can't hardly follow their movements according to the RotS novel. If that's to be taken as a fact, then - obviously - the movie just shows a slow-motion version of the fight, in order to have the audience enjoy it. And if that is the case, the entire "action" might have happened faster than we perceive.

Holy mother of all three-headed monkeys. Is it possible, Faunus, that you were trying to use a straw man me once again? I know, it never get's boring, but, you know, when you use a straw man, you're not exactly arguing with me or refuting my point – you just talk to yourself in public. Which is not the brightest thing to do, unless you need a free ride to the next asylum.

On a sidenote I may ask if it was your genious that made you question the evidence from the RotS novel I mentioned up there, while, at the same time, trying to pass down the entire novel as one coherent piece of absolute canon. Do you agree with me now? Ouch.


I'm fairly sure I win. You should probably stop now.

You're right. When playing games with yourself (arguing points you managed to construct yourself – or such that you could just contest by ignoring parts of the argument), the chance that another player wins the game is rather low. Suffice to say: The chance that you archive anything with that kind of "debating" is likewise pretty small, or, to be more precise, non-existant.

And why should I stop? Each time you hit the reply button, hilarity ensues. So just keep bringing the cheap entertainment. I'm rather sure you can come up with another great attempt to refute my arguments by...either ignoring them or playing dumb. But maybe you can at least top the KMC record for the most logical fallacies used in a single posting. Wouldn't that be awesome?

Or, just an idea, you can cease with your desperate and futile attempts to "own" me, come up with some actual thinking and post the results of that. Instead of welting in the oozy mires of Gideon-style-debating aka "It's written down so it has to be the absolute truth!!!111oneoneelevenithinkipwn"

And let me just make this clear once more:
I'm not on the opposite site of that "absolute thinking" philosophy. I don't think that every statement in the EU has to be questioned and I also don't think that every statement in the EU needs backup by other sources - that would break the mold of the writing and the interpretation of fiction in general and the SW EU specifically. The point, and please read carefully here, is that there are statements in the EU, where one (or at least myself) has to believe that whoever put them there, must have suffered from severe brain damage or the influence of some wierd drugs.

And it should be allowed to discuss / question lines appearing in the EU, without getting - metaphorically - run over by the "but it's teh canon!1" killer argument, which - sorry to tell you - isn't sufficient to refute any critical thoughts on certain issues. And if you can't live with that idea, it's pointless to even attempt any kind of discussion. We could just bash each other with EU statements that we see fit and ignore everything we don't like. The SWU is specifically constructed in a way that allows every fan to - almost - thinks what he likes. I wonder where the difference between that and the supposed "cherrypicking" of Janus can be found - maybe in the fact that you need to use your brains to participate in the latter.

Finding quotes that support your ideas when given more than 100 comics, novels, sourcebooks, scripts, video games and other stuff, doesn't exactly qualify as "great debating", does it? You can simply use the "feat-war-until-win" tactic to participate in most discussions with movie characters in them, and the protagonists of the video games can be just placed in the SW pantheon. So, when Janus talks about "thinking outside the box", I can sometimes just wonder if there is actually any thinking going on inside of it.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Which is exactly why I like it.

Once again, Janus's mentality assumes a state of authority that none of us, including him, rightfully enjoy.

Personally I've always had a problem with the PT Jedi and Sidious being the best there ever was.

We could discuss this until the stars burn out, but I think Lucas himself has made it clear: the movies are on a higher plateau than the EU. They are more important and higher on the totem pole; the characters of the movies, then, are more important than the characters of the EU. Anakin is meant to represent the pinnacle of potential and connection to the Force; logically, his midichlorian count is the highest in recorded history and he enjoys a special destiny to balance the Force. Palpatine is "the revenge of the Sith" according to Lucas, the ultimate evil, the peak of what evil has to offer. For cinematic purposes, evil is intelligent, cunning, and powerful. Logically, Palpatine is the ultimate Sith. The best. And why shouldn't he be? His influence is arguably the most critical in a medium of the highest importance (the movies). He conquered the Republic, he created the Empire, he destroyed the Jedi. He's better and rightfully so; that's his purpose. Why should any other Sith be better than he is?

That's a stupid contention to take.

If the EU didn't exist, I wouldn't care, but the stuff we see the likes of Bane and Revan and Nihilus do etc.... Movie-Sidious just doesn't show he's capable of that.

Again, something else we could argue until the stars burn out. Lucas himself, according to Nai, wasn't able to depict Jedi and Sith in the movies as he wanted to; his commentary in the Clone Wars DVD says that actual Jedi and Sith would be more than capable of the cartoonish, exaggerated feats depicted in that particular series. But the fights and the powers are a distant second to the story, and so the movies themselves are beset by blatant minimalism. Thus why Palpatine and the rest have been portrayed to be so powerful in the supplementary EU.

Any feat you provide for Bane and Revan and quite possibly Nihilus, I can counter with a better one from Palpatine. This is the man who, during the prequel trilogy, blunted the sensitivity and prescience of ten thousand Jedi on a galactic scale. That alone is better than pretty much anything I've seen.

Lol, it's actually only until Sidious is pushed in to the EU that we see it. But if the movies are the highest form of canon then one has to wonder as to just how we ARE supposed to rationalize why the movie-incarnations pale in comparison to the EU.

The feats are secondary to the story in the movies, TG. The EU is meant to expand on the universe of the movies, only blatant contradictions are retconned. Those that remain can mostly be rationally explained and fit to the larger picture.

Janus has a point: taking everything at face value contradicts some stuff, making it that much more difficult to discern what's true and what's not. Statistically speaking, an enraged Luke with like a month of training took down a man who's 80% of the best-of-the-best, all the while swinging his saber like a club. Inter-movie contradiction ensues when comparing that to the grace of the PT Jedi. Judging by what we see on-screen, there is NO way RoTJ Vader could take even TPM Obi-Wan---the comparative speed of the two is just that different.

Janus doesn't have a point at all. These discrepencies can be explained and have been explained. It's just that he (and now you, I suppose) don't like the conclusions. Are the movies and the EU perfect? Hell no, and I have more problems with both than most people do. But they can be made to fit the larger picture; I just wish some things were done differently.

But that's where I draw the line: I don't cherrypick and disregard things I don't want to in order to facilitate my opinions. Janus does.

If you take him at his word and believe what he believes, explanations be damned, everyone this side of Sidious is a complete moron among other issues. If you're prepared to take that stance, then we'll agree to disagree.

But, somehow, I don't think you will. And neither will he. Thus why his entire premise is irretrievably flawed. He cherrypicks.

In all sanity, Agen Kolar WAS a moron---he was looking the other way when he was stabbed. That's justified by making Sidious "that fast" and "it's slowed down for the audience's benefit." How do we work with that?! The same can be applied to any scenario in the movies, e.g. Jango either moves as fast a Jedi or Obi-Wan just blows.

No one denied that it was a stupid decision to film the fight the way that he did, but that doesn't mean that it defies canon or his intent.

I dunno.

Frankly I feel Lucas kinda f/ucked we nerds over by some of his declarations.

So do I. But the decision to ignore that and create your own canon isn't how it's done. Janus's premise assumes that he is the arbiter of what is right and wrong in canon and can decide what should and should not be included in the greater scheme of things.

That's arrogance in its purest form and it's foolish. He's wrong. End of story.

Nai, I'll get to you by the end of the week or something; I've never seen so many words used for such an insubstantial argument.

This, however, I can do now:

Nai
So Rex doesn't agree with me [mind you: he apparently didn't want you to make that one public]? I wonder what he doesn't agree with: The things I said, or your special version of it? Not that it matters, since this also doesn't defeat the argument. Try again.
REX
Feel free to post what I'm saying.
Good job.

Originally posted by Eminence
Good job.
REX
I will state things clearly; the films and Lucas are G-Canon, that is irrefutable. And film novelizations, as long as they do not directly contradict the films, are C-Canon, but since this is an EU section, you cannot disregard them.
Nai
So Rex doesn't agree with me [mind you: he APPARENTLY didn't want you to make that one public]? I wonder what he doesn't agree with: The things I said, or your special version of it? Not that it matters, since this also doesn't defeat the argument. Try again.

Yes. Most certainly a good job, Faunus...

...with the RED HERRING. *Applauds*

Each post a logical fallacy. Each post not remotely touching the original argument. You're so predictable. *yawn*

You're so predictable. *yawn*

Maybe you two just have a special connection.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe you two just have a special connection.

Ah...not exactly. But the last time when Faunus told me he would deal with one of my arguments later (in that case "tomorrow"😉 happened on 20th of February. So if "tomorrow" means "not in the next eight weeks", I suppose that "end of the week" written down on a monday is equal to "see you in 2010". 😉

I've never seen anyone try so hard at sounding intelligent.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Ah...not exactly. But the last time when Faunus told me he would deal with one of my arguments later (in that case "tomorrow"😉 happened on 20th of February. So if "tomorrow" means "not in the next eight weeks", I suppose that "end of the week" written down on a monday is equal to "see you in 2010". 😉
lol AD HOMINEM!

See how smart I am?!

Something tells me Nai isn't going to impress the females with his knowledge of philosophy and logical fallacies.

Who cares 'bout females? Outwitting silly pubescent teenagers is where it's at.

Hell yea. Nothing provides a false of security more.

Shh! You're ad homineming!

Edit: Also, don't anyone ever accuse Nai of embarrassingly blatant hypocrisy, ever. Removing doubts and pointing out the obvious = some sort of logical fallacy.

Shit, I'm ad homineming!

Originally posted by Eminence
Shh! You're ad homineming!

Damn damn damn. I'll have to tell my girlfriend i can't see her tonight because I need to memorize all of the existing logical fallacies, come up with my own, and read Plato's Republic so I have something to regurgitate tomorrow.

Indirect ad hominem! Also! Vulgarity!

Spoiler:
"Regurgitate"
is a gross word used in an attempt to distract from the original argument! Red herring!

Originally posted by Eminence
Indirect ad hominem! Also! Vulgarity!
Spoiler:
"Regurgitate"
is a gross word used in an attempt to distract from the original argument! Red herring!

Originally posted by Eminence
lol AD HOMINEM!

See how smart I am?!

Yeah. If you'd find the part in that post where I say that your argument must be invalid because, one time, you decided not to reply to a topic, then you actually would have a point.

Now you're just trying to be funny or demonstrating that you have no idea what an ad hominem argument is - and neither of that makes you look too smart. 😉

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. If you'd find the part in that post where I say that your argument must be invalid because, one time, you decided not to reply to a topic, then you actually would have a point.

Now you're just trying to be funny or demonstrating that you have no idea what an ad hominem argument is - and neither of that makes you look too smart. 😉

Nai, have you ever been on a date? With a woman?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nai, have you ever been on a date? With a woman?

Yes. But I have to refute this hidden offer to go out with you, not because you're ugly as sin or dumb as a sack of hammers - also not because you're a socking troll...oh...wait a second...

Have you ever been perm-banned for lowbrow trolling, TDTD? 😄

Maybe I should remove you from my ignore list again - given that you furnish me so many fit occasions for random flames. I feel I'm missing some good laughs there. Hmm...I will think about that over the next weeks, months or years. Wish you much fun with the trolling until then, given it's the only thing you're capable of.

Lol