Originally posted by Higilo
I still think Maul's youth, strenght and speed would of given him the advantade in a duel, of course if the force was allowed Dooku could win, but this arguement is about a straight duel
Dude, Mauls saber skills, while extremely impressive, are next to nothing in comparison with Dooku's mastery, I don't care about Maul's Juyo or his DB saber... Sorry, Maul loses... badly!!!
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Dude, Mauls saber skills, while extremely impressive, are next to nothing in comparison with Dooku's mastery, I don't care about Maul's Juyo or his DB saber... Sorry, Maul loses... badly!!!
WTF?! Dude, Maul's mastery of Juyo, high end mastery of multiple other forms, and ability to use the double bladed lightsaber, Jar'kai, and the regular single lightsaber wield literally smashes Dooku's one form mastery (you can not argue this, it can be quantifiably proven). They're not remotely comparable, Dooku gets destroyed in sheer lightsaber ability, and even moreso in overall fighting ability when you take Teras Kasi into account, the edge it gives Maul in sheer martial arts ability as well as giving him a rather alien overall form. Even if Dooku were actually able to take Maul out in a pure melee battle, it would be because of his [on paper] superior Force ability, despite how severely he gets outclassed in sheer melee technique.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Maul was a muthafecka in sabers. He may not be at Dooku's level, but the "next to nothing" comparison is unfounded.
Granted Lucien, the "next to nothing" statement may have been a little out of place (I will rarely give ground in a debate, but thank you for the check/balance, much appreciated). However, I stand my ground that Dooku's saber ability outclasses Maul's own. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind about it.
((Firstly just making it clear that this comparison is based on what can definitely be said about the two of them))
Maul:
1. Mastered Juyo.
2. Mastered at the very least two other forms to high degrees.
3. Is trained in the use of the standard single lightsaber, Jar'kai, and the double-bladed lightsaber.
Dooku:
1. Mastered Makashi.
To recap, Maul's mastered more forms (some confirmed to be to high degrees), and is capable of employing them in a number of different manners (Jar'Kai, single blade style, double-bladed lightsaber). If you really can't see how, on paper, Maul's mastery of the lightsaber is quantifiably greater than Dooku's, you're hopeless.
Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
((Firstly just making it clear that this comparison is based on what can definitely be said about the two of them))Maul:
1. Mastered Juyo.
2. Mastered at the very least two other forms to high degrees.
3. Is trained in the use of the standard single lightsaber, Jar'kai, and the double-bladed lightsaber.Dooku:
1. Mastered Makashi.
To recap, Maul's mastered more forms (some confirmed to be to high degrees), and is capable of employing them in a number of different manners (Jar'Kai, single blade style, double-bladed lightsaber). If you really can't see how, on paper, Maul's mastery of the lightsaber is quantifiably greater than Dooku's, you're hopeless.
Neb, this is disingenuous at best. The fact that Dooku is among the best is nigh on incontrovertible:
As a Jedi Master, Dooku was one of the most highly regarded lightsaber instructors in the Jedi Order. Recordings of Dooku demonstrating lightsaber techniques were recorded on the Great Holocron and became mandatory viewing for two generations of Padawans.
Dooku was a respected instructor in the Jedi Temple and one of the most renowned swordsmen in the galaxy. Only Masters Yoda and Mace Windu were considered to have fought on equal terms with him.
Before his resignation, Dooku was known as one of the most skilled duelists and lightsaber instructors in the Jedi Order.
Besides his many accolades, there is also the fact that he taught Grievous all seven forms, (six?) and outclassed even the droid general completely. Dooku was good with a laser sword.
That Dooku taught Grievous all seven lightsaber forms is one of the biggest misconceptions on this forum. I don't know whom it originally came form, but I have a feeling it was from Lightsnake. Anyway, from the RotS novelisation:
"Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.
"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him.""
Here, Mace Windu, a close friend and sparring partner of the Count, a Jedi of quite some renown, only acknowledges Count Dooku as being in a position to teach the General a single form: Makashi. Given their relationship and the Count's own renown within the Order, that he would be of such a belief would almost conclusively tell you that Dooku had only ever become truly proficient with Makashi. That being said, Dooku is never once stated to have been proficient in anything but Makashi, and that passage all but confirms the idea.
As for the accolades you brought up, you didn't manage to source or substantiate a single one, and you certainly didn't explain how it supports Dooku being anywhere near Maul in lightsaber ability, let alone among the best.
Here, Mace Windu, a close friend and sparring partner of the Count, a Jedi of quite some renown, only acknowledges Count Dooku as being in a position to teach the General a single form: Makashi.
^For the record, that kinda came out wrong. The point was to illustrate that given that Count Dooku had been a Jedi of quite some renown within the Order, a lightsaber instructor of renown in fact, it would be extremely unlikely that Mace Windu would have been mistaken when he acknowledges Count Dooku as only being in a position to teach Makashi, especially given their relationship.
Edit!
I don't know whom it originally came form
from*
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm tired, so I'll just ask. Are you saying that because a character within the novel commented on a something he couldn't possibly have incontrovertible knowledge of, it's fact? What am I missing?
Here, Mace Windu, a close friend and sparring partner of the Count, a Jedi of quite some renown, only acknowledges Count Dooku as being in a position to teach the General a single form: Makashi. Given their relationship and the Count's own renown within the Order, that he would be of such a belief would almost conclusively tell you that Dooku had only ever become truly proficient with Makashi. That being said, Dooku is never once stated to have been proficient in anything but Makashi, and that passage all but confirms the idea.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
From Nebaris, anything even HINTING to his conclusion is incontrovertible fact to him.
And rightly so.
We know full well Dooku is familiar in all the forms in combat and has mastered Makashi to the highest degree.
Prove it. No assumptions or unsupported claims.
To simply write Maul as the better because he might know more forms is short sighted stupidity.
It's not that he "knows" more forms, it's that he's mastered Juyo, the most technically demanding of all of them, at least two other forms to high degrees, Jar'kai, the double-bladed lightsaber, and the regular single lightsaber. On paper, his technique far outclasses Dooku's; he has an overall more complete style, more versatility, and if we take into account Teras Kasi, a massive edge in martial arts ability, and a slightly alien overall style given how he implements it into his lightsaber style. On paper, Maul is easily the superior of the two; in fact, his sheer battle technique combined with his vast physical advantage, and i can see Maul quite firmly taking the duel.
It's so funny how this is a heated debate when in the Obi Wan vs Maul thread (almost) everyone's like "Obi Wan wins easily!!!!"...
I'd say that Dooku wins. He has FAR more experience than Maul, and almost out dueled both Anakin and Obi Wan in ROTS. Not only that, but he TOOLED Anakin in AOTC, whereas TPM Obi Wan was able to fight and even temporarily overwhelm Maul...
Besides, Makashi > all forms in dueling.
Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
And rightly so.
Isn't it just precious how he admits he'll latch onto it
Prove it. No assumptions or unsupported claims.
It's not that he "knows" more forms, it's that he's mastered Juyo, the most technically demanding of all of them, at least two other forms to high degrees, Jar'kai, the double-bladed lightsaber, and the regular single lightsaber. On paper, his technique far outclasses Dooku's; he has an overall more complete style, more versatility, and if we take into account Teras Kasi, a massive edge in martial arts ability, and a slightly alien overall style given how he implements it into his lightsaber style. On paper, Maul is easily the superior of the two; in fact, his sheer battle technique combined with his vast physical advantage, and i can see Maul quite firmly taking the duel.
And you're an idiot, so we disregard any of your thoughts.
Your argument relies on 'WHOAMG MAUL KNOWS MORE FORMS' which has never been a qualification for superior skill among the high tier. Dooku has demonstrated proficiency with Makashi that firmly stands above most singular fighters. He is well versed in anything Maul cna throw out, from martial arts to saber forms. General Grievous was a master of all seven saber forms, given Dooku taught them to him and I don't think you'll be arguing he'll be able to take someone like Mace or Yoda-actually, knowing you, you probably would.
In technical skill, Dooku has studied each and every form enough to recognize it instantly. Because he made the choice to hone Makashi to its highest level doesn't mean he's a poorer duelist than someone who knows both Soresu and Djem So.
Yes, Maul mastered the most physically demanding form, good for him, we know Maul's great and in much better shape than Dooku. Dueling ability isn't determined by how many forms you know, but your proficiency with a blade in a fight.
You've seen it before, child.
Prove it. Direct me to where it was apparently shown, and then prove that I saw it. Do it.
Your argument relies on 'WHOAMG MAUL KNOWS MORE FORMS' which has never been a qualification for superior skill among the high tier.
1. Prove that Dooku's among the "high tier".
2. Please explain how the number of forms you've mastered no longer acts as a qualifier simply because you're dealing with the "high tier".
Dooku has demonstrated proficiency with Makashi that firmly stands above most singular fighters.
Support this without committing a Fallacy of Division, and do it now.
He is well versed in anything Maul cna throw out, from martial arts to saber forms.
Prove it.
General Grievous was a master of all seven saber forms, given Dooku taught them to him and I don't think you'll be arguing he'll be able to take someone like Mace or Yoda-actually, knowing you, you probably would.
1. Prove that Dooku taught Grievous all seven forms.
2. Say "No!" to Red Herrings.
In technical skill, Dooku has studied each and every form enough to recognize it instantly.
Prove it.
Because he made the choice to hone Makashi to its highest level
Prove that he honed Makashi to its highest level.
doesn't mean he's a poorer duelist than someone who knows both Soresu and Djem So.
It wouldn't definitively mean that, sure, but it would make it far more likely.
As I've already explained to you in the past, specialising in one form is all well and good, but at a certain point, diminishing returns (google it) start to come into play. Further improvements see smaller and smaller returns. At a certain point, where the number of moves and sequences you know, and how fluidly you can perform them are so high, further improvements adds proportionally less and less to how skilled it makes you. At which point, having a more versatile, complete overall style adds far more to your overall skill. Especially in Maul's case; we know -- undeniably -- that he's mastered at least two forms to high levels, and we know that his overall expertise is far more complete and versatile than Dooku's.
Technically, technically, you can't even definitively state that Dooku's mastered Makashi to a higher level than Maul's forms, you certainly can't definitively state that he mastered it to a much higher level, and even if that were the case, what that actually means to his overall level of ability is severely undermined using the concept of diminishing returns. Whereby the versatility and range of your form means far more on paper.
Yes, Maul mastered the most physically demanding form, good for him, we know Maul's great and in much better shape than Dooku.
The most technically demanding form, given how it requires high level mastery of multiple other forms. The moves and sequences are clearly far more complex and difficult to perform than the others given what's demanded, and it's clearly a far more complete and versatile form than the others because of that.
Dueling ability isn't determined by how many forms you know, but your proficiency with a blade in a fight.
Your statement would imply that they were mutually exclusive, when in fact the former in part makes up the latter. Perhaps you should think about what these terms actually mean before using them.