Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Okay, we misunderstood each other here. I wasn't arguing that Juggernaut wasn't stronger. I agree he was stronger in that instance. I was trying to say that there was no amping by outside forces, only that Cain himself could do that. Something that hasn't happened again. I may not have typed my thoughts clearly enough, maybe still haven't gotten what I wanted to say across.
I never said an outside force amped him. It was still Cytorrak's power that was empowering him just like always. He simply gained more power in that arc from Cytorrak as I recall. As stated, he was more powerful than ever before, and was never shown to reach that level of power again.
Hence why you can't judge base you're opinion on how Classic Juggernaut would do against Classic Thor based on how 8th Day Juggernaut did.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
In a Juggernaut one shot, D'Spraye said he took "all" of Juggernaut's power. Yet he was surprised to see Juggernaut still standing. Juggernaut's rage was able to fuel him and grant him access to more power.
It was never stated he gained access to more power as I recall. He was significantly weakened, but his immortality was active to an extent.
It has never stated nor shown, that Juggernaut if angry enough, can access more power and reach levels that he did, in the 8th Day Saga.
I have the issue open right now, and it was never stated he accessed more power etc.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Using 8th Day Juggernaut and Rune King/Odin Force Thor are not the same. 8th Day Juggernaut was still drawing on more power he has access to. Also, he isn't an incarnation of Juggernaut. All this is, was just an instance where Juggernaut was able to reach those levels of power because of the situation.
I did not mean he is a different Juggernaut, but we use him as a separate incarnation as he was more powerful than his Classic form. 8th Day Juggernaut was more powerful, because he was given access to more power. He doesn't become that powerful on a whim, or can draw on it in battle. That's the reason his was only at those levels during 8th Day.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Rune King/Odin Force Thor is different. Neither of those was Thor drawing on more of HIS power. That was power literally given to him by Odin, or power he acquired from the Runes.
Dude, Juggernaut doesn't draw on his own power, he draws power from Cytorrak. He was given more power by Cytorrak and allowed more access to power.
Thor inherited the Odin Force just like he was meant to.
Both Thor and Juggernaut are more powerful than usual, because they are given access to power that is otherwise beyond their grasp.
Originally posted by manx422
thor loses to hulk regularly
Team 1
How about you actually read their fights, before you make a comment about it?
Hulk has never beaten Thor. While Thor has knocked out the Hulk on different occasions, and has never been taken down by the Hulk while Thor has smacked the Hulk around, to the point where Hulk resorts to hostages. Not to mention Thor holds back his the majority of his strength/power against the Hulk as he has stated.
Exactly, when does Hulk regularly beat Thor?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
How about you actually read their fights, before you make a comment about it?Hulk has never beaten Thor. While Thor has knocked out the Hulk on different occasions, and has never been taken down by the Hulk while Thor has smacked the Hulk around, to the point where Hulk resorts to hostages. Not to mention Thor holds back his the majority of his strength/power against the Hulk as he has stated.
Exactly, when does Hulk regularly beat Thor?
Hulk beat him like twice IIRC.
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Actually Cyttorak has never given him more power nor has he ever taken it away.
Juggernaut has lost the power of Cytorrak, and he was given more access to his power in 8th Day unless an outside force besides Cytorrak was amping him. Cain clearly said something was making him that way. Making him stronger than ever. I would imagine he was referring to Cytorrak as he his engine of destruction.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Juggernaut has lost the power of Cytorrak, and he was given more access to his power in 8th Day unless an outside force besides Cytorrak was amping him. Cain clearly said something was making him that way. Making him stronger than ever. I would imagine he was referring to Cytorrak as he his engine of destruction.
He lost the power of Cyttorak but Cyttorak didn't take it away from him. Cain weakened himself. The will to do something was making him feel that way.
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
He lost the power of Cyttorak but Cyttorak didn't take it away from him. Cain weakened himself. The will to do something was making him feel that way.
Cain stopped being the engine of destruction and he lost the power, and was weakened. I don't have it with me right now (At school.) but as I recall, he was asking Cytorrak to restore his power. Can you check, as I don't have the issue with me to double check?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Cain stopped being the engine of destruction and he lost the power, and was weakened. I don't have it with me right now (At school.) but as I recall, he was asking Cytorrak to restore his power. Can you check, as I don't have the issue with me to double check?
All of that is true but Cyttorak himself said that he (Cyttorak) was not weakening him. Cain tried using his powers for good and that can not happen. Cyttorak's power is not meant for good deeds, and if the avatar tries to do so then they lose their powers. Cyttorak did not touch Cain's power at all. He got so weak and soft that he sought out a replacement.
Cain tried to go against Cytorrak's wishes and his job as the engine of destruction and he lost his power. Cytorrak did not take away his power, but Cain was denied access when he tried to use them for good. He had to agree to be the engine of destruction to gain access again.
Hell, I never even said anything about Cytorrak taking away his powers, you're the one who brought it up. Either way, it's not like Cytorrak can't take them away.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Cain tried to go against Cytorrak's wishes and his job as the engine of destruction and he lost his power. Cytorrak did not take away his power, but Cain was denied access when he tried to use them for good. He had to agree to be the engine of destruction to gain access again.Hell, I never even said anything about Cytorrak taking away his powers, you're the one who brought it up. Either way, it's not like Cytorrak can't take them away.
Cain denied himself of the powers. He didn't really get the powers back because he just agreed. His mind was back to the way it used to be, kill and destroy. HE was focused again like he used to be. Cyttorak himself said he didn't weaken him.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
As stated, he was more powerful than ever before, and was never shown to reach that level of power again.
Actually, The Juggernaut was able to reach a far greater power level. During the Trion incident, an evil force enlisted the power of Cyttorak. In doing so that were able to control Juggernaut, using his abilities it was able to access more power.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It was never stated he gained access to more power as I recall. He was significantly weakened, but his immortality was active to an extent.It has never stated nor shown, that Juggernaut if angry enough, can access more power and reach levels that he did, in the 8th Day Saga.
I have the issue open right now, and it was never stated he accessed more power etc.
In the issue Cain says that rage feeds the Juggernaut. D'Spraye said he took all of Cains power, yet he stood there with more power.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
8th Day Juggernaut was more powerful, because he was given access to more power. He doesn't become that powerful on a whim, or can draw on it in battle.
He wasn't given that power. He had a better understanding of his abilities and was able to draw on more power. As mentioned by Wei Phoenix, Cyttorak has said he isn't the one restricting Cains power.
Even Editors have said Cain has unlimited power to draw on. It's just during the 8th Day arc, he has never wanted something that bad.
Editor comment on Juggernaut's ability to drawn on more power.
There is also a more recent one, stating pretty much the same thing.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Dude, Juggernaut doesn't draw on his own power, he draws power from Cytorrak. He was given more power by Cytorrak and allowed more access to power.Thor inherited the Odin Force just like he was meant to.
Both Thor and Juggernaut are more powerful than usual, because they are given access to power that is otherwise beyond their grasp.
Big difference. Juggernaut is an avatar of Cyttorak. When he accesses more of his abilities, others still see him as Juggernaut. He still gives off the same "energy signature" if you will. But when Thor has access to the Odin force, he gives off Odin's signature. When Borr was raised again, he sensed his son, Odin, when he fought Thor. He even said that Thor had stolen Odin's power.
My main arguement is that Juggernaut can get stronger. He may not need to reach 8th Day levels and probably won't for this fight. I don't really want to come off saying that Juggernaut reaches 8th Day levels for this fight. Only that he can draw on more power.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Actually, The Juggernaut was able to reach a far greater power level. During the Trion incident, an evil force enlisted the power of Cyttorak. In doing so that were able to control Juggernaut, using his abilities it was able to access more power.
As I recall, the Trion expelled their dark side themselves, which went on to become sentient and then possessed Juggernaut which equated to his increase in power. I don’t recall it being stated that Trion Juggernaut was simply the dark side using the Juggernaut to access greater levels of his own power. As I remember it was they who resulted in the increase in power.
Scans?
Also we are referring to 8th Day.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
In the issue Cain says that rage feeds the Juggernaut. D'Spraye said he took all of Cains power, yet he stood there with more power.
Didn’t D’Spayre take “most” of Juggernaut’s power? Once again I don’t recall it being stated or shown that Cain lost all of his power and his will allowed him to access and gain more power.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
He wasn't given that power. He had a better understanding of his abilities and was able to draw on more power. As mentioned by Wei Phoenix, Cyttorak has said he isn't the one restricting Cains power.Even Editors have said Cain has unlimited power to draw on. It's just during the 8th Day arc, he has never wanted something that bad.
Editor comment on Juggernaut's ability to drawn on more power.
There is also a more recent one, stating pretty much the same thing.
It’s been a while so I actually forgot where I was going with this, but I’ll try and remember…..
If that’s how you want to interpret it, fine. As I recall though, 8th Day Juggernaut was Cain who Cytorrak’s manipulations was allowed to draw on more of Cytorrak’s power, to do what was necessary. He has not shown that he can access that level of power under normal circumstances or on his own. He clearly said that something was making him that way, something was making him more powerful than ever before and that something was Cytorrak. It wasn’t Cain’s own doing.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Big difference. Juggernaut is an avatar of Cyttorak. When he accesses more of his abilities, others still see him as Juggernaut. He still gives off the same "energy signature" if you will. But when Thor has access to the Odin force, he gives off Odin's signature. When Borr was raised again, he sensed his son, Odin, when he fought Thor. He even said that Thor had stolen Odin's power.
Not that much of a difference in my opinion. Like I said Juggernaut doesn’t draw on his own power, he draws on Cytorrak’s power.
When he has access to more abilities and power others certainly don’t see him as the Juggernaut still that much is evident.
Also Juggernaut’s energy signature would be akin to Cytorrak. Just saying.
I really have a hard time recalling my point here…..
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
My main arguement is that Juggernaut can get stronger. He may not need to reach 8th Day levels and probably won't for this fight. I don't really want to come off saying that Juggernaut reaches 8th Day levels for this fight. Only that he can draw on more power.
That’s the thing; I haven’t seen anything conclusive to say that he can get stronger or draw on more power. The only time his ever had an increase in power is at specific circumstances, that involve outside interferences and even then there has never been anything shown or stated that Juggernaut when angry enough etc. can draw on more power.
