Galen Marek vs Yoda

Started by Borbarad16 pages
Originally posted by truejedi
But we saw it. It wasn't a narrator. (which we destroy all the time here as exaggerating, for exampe, Nick Rostu and Kreia are not trusted narrators.) So yes, in these cases, where we see it onscreen, we can definitly say it happened.

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to have an idea about the concept of narration, especially not in the context of moving pictures. It's all fiction. Even following the suspension of disbelief method (which has to be applied some cases to talk about fiction), the fact remains that even the screen doesn't have to show anything "as it really happened". As former LFL official Chris Cherasi put it:

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play.[...]The particular attributes of individual media also come into play."

In context of a source that is specifically designed to appeal to children one shouldn't expect "storytelling for adults". Especially not by a director who is known for his exaggerated style. You, apparently, do. LFL apparently doesn't, as the T-Canon Clone Wars series (with the T-Canon status just being given to the new animated series - not to the cartoons) director David Filoni makes clear here:

"The 2003 series was very exaggerated, not just in design but in its storytelling and action. We chose to stay more in the Star Wars universe for our Jedi powers so that The Clone Wars film and TV series will hook up with the live-action movies George made before."

Holy shit. So the next LFL employee tells us that the 2003 CW cartoons featured exaggerated action. But that can't be the case, because "we've seen it", right?

You may want to watch some more movies. The camera doesn't have to show the "reality" as it is. Have you ever seen "Natural Born Killers" by Oliver Stone? I'm rather sure that the protagonists weren't driving under a sky featuring rear projections and I'm also rather sure that there wasn't sitcom style laughter to be heared through-out Mallory's teenager days. I'm pretty sure that their universe didn't fade into black and white pictures or changed into an Anime every now and then.

Yet, the camera does show all of that. Does it turn those things into reality? Nope. Those are elements of the storytelling that is done through the camera. The narrator is the one that uses the camera and decides, what is shown. That's why we have to put certain things into context. The action, as shown in the CW cartoon doesn't fit the rest of the SW sources. Of course, we have some brute force uses at certain points (most recently the TUF II trailers), but even those are later put into context (via novels for example).

This does not mean that the Jedi absolutely can't perform the actions that they did perform in the Clone Wars. I don't see why Yoda wouldn't be able to force push some droid ships, or lift the remains of the temple on Illum, when his inferior Mace Windu can stop a landslide, while balancing on it and hold some steamcrawler in his grip simultaniously ("Shatterpoint"😉. Likewise I don't see why Mace should have problems in destroying droids with the force (as he also does during the Battle of Ryloth in the new animated series) or putting his fists through them (it's said in "Shatterpoint" that he can shatter corusca gems - the SW universes equivalent for diamonds - with a mere touch, thanks to his Shatterpoint ability. And we have Kenobi bending Grievous' durasteel chest armor with his bare hands).

And this what the point: Put things into context, instead of just repeating "but we saw / read / heared it, so it's canon" (which you just did). Because not only doesn't that make sense from a perspection of analysis when taking all sources into consideration (none even coming close to the CWC in terms of force action - not even TUF) - it's also a modus operandi outright questioned or contradicted by the comments of LFL employees on LFLs own canon policy.

In short: You lose.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Borbarad is making shit up claiming that the creator of the cartoon said the feats were exaggerated, when the creator actually said that is what they were capable of if they releashed their full power.

I'm brought in two sources now. One outright proclaiming that the action was exaggerated - a view that, today at least, seems to be shared by George Lucas himself, given that he - having the means to do anything he wanted in the animation - decided not to show action as it's shown in the CW cartoon.

And it's nice that I'm making shit up, where you have given us hard evidence for your claim...oh, wait a second. Actually, you haven't. And you've also not disproven my claim. You're arguing out of your memory - as am I, which I outright stated. Maybe you want to try and read first and then think before hitting the reply button?

I said that I would need to rewatch the DVD, but I'm fairly sure that before he proclaims that Lucas liked the action, he said that it was exaggerated, especially when compared to the movies. Do you want to deny that? You have to be blind to do so. And do you really want to argue that the CWC shows what the Jedi can do when "unleashing their powers"? So am I supposed to believe that they were "holding back" in all other sources, when superhuman feats like the ones depicted in the CWC could easily have saved the day? That, in very simple words, doesn't make any sense.


If Mace's battle on Dantooine was exaggerated, then the battle itself would be considered non-canon, unless Borbarad can prove that Windu either had help or he used some other method other than just the force. Until then: What we see onscreen >>>> His word. If he wants to claim that Yoda might have smashed smaller ships then what was shown onscreen, then he is contraticting what was shown as truejedi said.

Oh my god.
You can't be that dense. Really. How does exaggeration of an event in one source render the event void? Herodot heavily exaggareted the amount of troops Xerxes used in the Battle at Thermopylae (turning about 50,000 soldiers into 5 million), but that doesn't mean the battle didn't happen at all.

In the same way, the Battle on Dantooine is mentioned in various other sources (Labyrinth of Evil, The New Essential Chronology) and, without doubt, Mace was the force that did decide the outcome of that fight. Does that mean it must have happened exactly as the CW Cartoon shows it? Nope. Is it even likely that it happened as the CW Cartoon shows it? Following the comments above and taking all other sources on the Jedi into consideration, that is actually quite unlikely.

Does that mean that Mace can't destroy droids with the force or punch through them? No. He did both (or rather than that, similar things) in other sources. And that was what I was trying to force into your heads the entire time: Don't ignore the context (which would be all other SW sources here) and use other sources to prove your claims. Got it now?

Herodot heavily exaggareted the amount of troops Xerxes used in the Battle at Thermopylae (turning about 50,000 soldiers into 5 million), but that doesn't mean the battle didn't happen at all.

Not to nitpick, but 50,000 wasn't the official number either... Carry on.

Blaxican is pleased by your post, Borborad. Impressive. Most impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda'll have trouble dealing with him in sabers just becuase of that strength feat imo.

Oh well. Since we are in the "everything we see is absolute canon" place, the correct answer to your suggestion would be: Nope. Why? Because in "Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Volume 3" we have that nice story called "Stranger in Town" that features Yoda carrying a house-sized gun to the battle field (on his back) in order to destroy a seperatist army.

That said, the star destroyer feat isn't anything new. Its about on par with the Skyhook feat in the first novel, the original star destoyer feat and (maybe) him contemplating obliterating Kazdan Paragus' junk temple with a single Force push.

And how much is it worth in comparison to Yoda causing avalanches, lifting the remains of the temple on Ilum or force pushing capital ships (two C-9979 landing crafts) in the midst of a battle?


Edit: What this new game does do though is make Vader and Sidious unbelievably more powerful. Vader tanks an ungodly amount of electricity in the final boss fight. Consider that Sidious took him out with a short 2 second burst and Sidious' FLightning is once again shown to be stupidly powerful.

Oh. You know how much electricity Vader tanks and how it compares to force lightning? Would you share this information with us?

And considering the fact that usually lightning strikes cause enough damage to kill humans that are hit by them, frying a man with an iron lung enough to kill him minutes afterwards, doesn't strike me as "supidly powerful". Especially not when we've seen Sidious reducing people to ashes with force lightning and seen other characters burning holes through their victims with the same ability (Jaina in the NJO series for example - even against a Vong).

@Beef

The German historian Hans Delbrück estimated 40,000 to 50,000 soldiers being used by Xerxes during his entire campagin in Greece. If you happen to understand German, you can find his arguments here. And there aren't any "offical numbers" of course, since ancient "historians" loved to exaggerate the amounts of troops used, in order to make their time seem more impressive.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh well. Since we are in the "everything we see is absolute canon" place, the correct answer to your suggestion would be: Nope. Why? Because in "Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Volume 3" we have that nice story called "Stranger in Town" that features Yoda carrying a house-sized gun to the battle field (on his back) in order to destroy a seperatist army.

And yet Dooku had no problems in dealing with Yoda's strength, in direct comparison to the considerable and highlighted difficulty he had with Anakin, whose strength is weaker than someone who has strength like the above (Anakin's best feat iirc is ripping apart some random droid in Sithisis). Plus I question the canonicity of the source. The Clone Wars adventure books are non-canon iirc. I can't find any link to LucasArts for example.

And how much is it worth in comparison to Yoda causing avalanches, lifting the remains of the temple on Ilum or force pushing capital ships (two C-9979 landing crafts) in the midst of a battle?

I don't know. I don't know how much the feat would be affected by being in space. Jinsoku Takai knows a lot about it though, so try him. But its probably more than the first two feats, its not too hard to cause an avalanche and Durasteel wieghs and has more mass than the rock of the temple, so it'll be harder to move. Dunno about the transports, but given a Star Destroyers sheer size, probably.

Oh. You know how much electricity Vader tanks and how it compares to force lightning? Would you share this information with us?

Star Wars energy generators generally give off massive amounts of energy, which you should recall from your excursion into the Star Trek forum. . Its notable that the lightning Galen was using appeared to be of such intensity that he was having trouble containing it. This is notable becuase Mareks FLightning is enough to down an AT-ST, so that and him preferring that over his own lightning is a good indication of power. Though really I'd prefer to wait until I can read the book before further commenting.

And considering the fact that usually lightning strikes cause enough damage to kill humans that are hit by them, frying a man with an iron lung enough to kill him minutes afterwards, doesn't strike me as "supidly powerful". Especially not when we've seen Sidious reducing people to ashes with force lightning and seen other characters burning holes through their victims with the same ability (Jaina in the NJO series for example - even against a Vong).

Jedi are above humans and have means of protencting themselves, so lightning usually killing them doesn't really mean much. I know Sids lightning is powerful, I was just saying this is another example.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet Dooku had no problems in dealing with Yoda's strength, in direct comparison to the considerable and highlighted difficulty he had with Anakin, whose strength is weaker than someone who has strength like the above (Anakin's best feat iirc is ripping apart some random droid in Sithisis).

Where did Dooku and Anakin have a Force contest. I only remember Dooku easily tossing aside Anakin in AOTC.

Physical strength.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Physical strength.

How much does physical strength actually matter? The more powerful you are in the Force, the more physical strength you have right? Anakin has an incredible amount of raw Force power who took Dooku by surprise. It's also a fact that Anakin has a higher ForceBacteriaCount than Yoda.

You should see the ESB scene with Yoda and Luke. It's pretty good stuff.

Yeah, but I can see it going the same way Anakin vs Dooku went, Dooku can up his strength with the Force to match Anakin's, but doing so wear's out his reserves very fast. Yoda has to use up even more than Dooku becuase he's even more frail. And Galen's probably got one of the deepest Force reserves ever; the guy NEVER gets tired and he can fight his way through hordes of minions and still fight two of the most powerful Sith Lords in history like its no big mother****in' deal.

That said, I was only speaking hypothetically. To be honest, Sidius and Yoda are very probably too fast for Galen to keep up with in sabers for particularly long, though I think all-out he's maybe equal to their ROTS selves. *shrugs*


You should see the ESB scene with Yoda and Luke. It's pretty good stuff.

The scene where Yoda says that the Force is above crude matter? Man, that scene's beautiful. One of the best scenes ever imo. I was almost tearing up when Plinket was contrasting that scene with the prequels.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I Clone Wars series (with the T-Canon status just being given to the new animated series - not to the cartoons) director David Filoni makes clear here:

"The 2003 series was very exaggerated, not just in design [b]but in its storytelling and action. We chose to stay more in the Star Wars universe for our Jedi powers so that The Clone Wars film and TV series will hook up with the live-action movies George made before."

[/B]

Thank you for this pal..

I knew he said this about the cw mini.. I just didnt have a clue where to find it now.

But I also personally think its obvious, from just watching the show and comaparing it to the new animation, that the mini was exaggerating the use of force powers probably as it was a kids show..

But clearly using your common sense like that has no place on these boards.

So, wait a minute... this argument started out with POWER's skepticism towards Yoda's manipulation of the landing craft, and we have Nai confirming that that's still entirely possible?

So, what conclusion has been reached besides the "context" point?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So, wait a minute... this argument started out with POWER's skepticism towards Yoda's manipulation of the landing craft, and we have Nai confirming that that's still entirely possible?

So, what conclusion has been reached besides the "context" point?

That the Force feats in the mini were purposefully exaggerated (hate to repeat myself but there you go) according to Dave Filoni, which Iv said a few pages back but culd'nt find the quote.

Im sure thats also been said in the commentary for that cartoon, but I dnt have it so cant check.

So basically yeah compare Mace to Yoda in that cartoon.. Compare Mace to Greivous in that cartoon.. But dnt compare a character's feats from that cartoon to another character outside of that cartoon, cause that wnt be a fair comparison.

Hell Mace(for example) from the new animation wuld get the crap kicked out of him by his own CW mini self!

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Where did Dooku and Anakin have a Force contest. I only remember Dooku easily tossing aside Anakin in AOTC.

CW movie. Anakin was no match for Dooku in a Force contest.

Srsly. Why wouldn't Yoda be able to Force manipulate the two droid capital ships? He's the second most powerful Lightsider ever, it's not unrealistic for him to perform this feat.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Srsly. Why wouldn't Yoda be able to Force manipulate the two droid capital ships? He's the second most powerful Lightsider ever, it's not unrealistic for him to perform this feat.

Im sure he culd given time and his "size matters not" philosophy..

But in terms of a combat situation, doenst look like it.

He took on droids in the first episode of the new animation on toydaria I think.

He had to take them out commando style.. Would have been much easier for him if he just sent hundreds of them all flying with massive shock waves like he does in the cw mini.. even easier if he could just toss their ship around..

Also if I remember correctly in the cw mini he just lifts a whole load of destroyer droids, whilst in the new animation he takes on about 4 of them(i think) but needs the clone troopers help to take them out.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Holy shit. So the next LFL employee tells us that the 2003 CW cartoons featured exaggerated action. But that can't be the case, because "we've seen it", right?

You may want to watch some more movies. The camera doesn't have to show the "reality" as it is.

Also true.. Unless we are supposed to believe the Mace vs Sidious fight happened exactly as we saw it, at that exact speed.. As well as the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin fight, and the Darth Maul duel of the fates fight..

Very unlikely considering all those fights were done with the speed of the actors concerned and not with super human Jedi speeds (with the exception of the odd flip here and there).

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
How is what Yoda does in the movies a direct contradiction to what he does in the CW mini series?

Its a contradiction to the first episode of the new animated series which Filoni has clearly explained(in the above quote provided by good old borbarad) to be more in line with the movies than the Exaggerated cw microseries.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
and has been called the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known.

Yoda > Marek. /thread

Actually Yoda was called that at the time of ROTS before Starkiller.

So, essentially, we have Nai confirming that Mace's manhandling of the droids DID happen, because it was in other sources. And Yoda's Force-handling of the landing craft DIDN'T happen, because he didn't do it in other sources. So we could phase out anything that happened in the CW cartoon if we want, so long as it wasn't mentioned/re-enacted in another source.

Yeah, no, I'm not that buying that. Mace Force-f*cked those droids, Yoda Force-f*cked those landing craft.

I would really, REALLY like to Force-f*ck something!! That'd be kewl!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So, essentially, we have Nai confirming that Mace's manhandling of the droids DID happen, because it was in other sources. And Yoda's Force-handling of the landing craft DIDN'T happen, because he didn't do it in other sources. So we could phase out anything that happened in the CW cartoon if we want, so long as it wasn't mentioned/re-enacted in another source.

Yeah, no, I'm not that buying that. Mace Force-f*cked those droids, Yoda Force-f*cked those landing craft.

QFT