Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i wasnt making any excuses i just stated why he was there and what happened besides how to you explain the rest of my argument huh?i guess you ignore his legitimate meta reflex feats.....
being feral doesnt disgredit his feat against shang.
That feral state isn't his norm. But anyways Shang had the advantage the other time. So it doesn't change his feat your excuse is all I'm saying.
Originally posted by jinzin
And who says him not doing this on a constant basis comes from lack of ability?The fact is, when Wolverine's forced into using his skill he does so beyond a state of admirably.
I fail to see what you think Elektra brings to this thread as she's grossly superhuman in all aspects including her mind.
Cap doesn't support any argument as each time Wolverine has faced Cap he's either been 1. Holding back or 2. Comprimised on some level.
Sabretooth is extremely skilled and has played the part of a fool for years just to trick everyone around him... beyond that he's FAR more superhuman than anyone else on that list in terms of sheer physicality, beyond that he's able to manipulate Wolverine's emotions through his use of mindgames.. It's one of the points that was made when Logan went to deal with Creed level headed outfought him and tossed his ass off a cliff.
DP is regularly disarmed or put to a disadvantage by Wolverine in h2h combat.
And Cable has been stated to have multiple files on Wolverine from which to study and that he knows Wolverine's movements so well he can blah blah blah.. you get the point...
Now when it comes to skilled and namer opponents:
Wolverine's had mass impressive performances against the likes of Lazaer, Himself, Shingen, Daredevil, Shang Chi, Psylocke, Ogun, Punisher, Shatterstar, Stick, Silver Samurai, Winter Soldier, Gambit, Kane, Deathstrike, X-23, Nightcrawler, Domina and I can keep going..... It's not as if Wolverine able to outfight people with great fighting skill is anything new, and that's inclusive of people from every KMC tier.
When it comes to his speed and reaction times there should be no question that his movements are grossly superhuman as well given his in fight encounters.
Multiple fights with prime sentinals who blitzed X-men members and moved too fast Cyclops couldn't even track.
Taking down multiple werewolves who were moving too fast for Vindicator to deal with.
Blitzing a small group of X-force members before they could mount a defense.
Taking out multiple machines which had to increase size and speed to fight Logan in Snikt.
Rushing past and breaking to a head start before multiple superhumans could react in the new Weapon X book.
Putting Deathstrike in defensive fights who keeps upgrading speed for Logan.
Doing acrobatics behind Speed Demon's sprints without losing ground.
Causing Spiderman to doubt his own speed against Logan's.And once again I could keep going....
I feel that there's a couple issues here.. the first is with Logan.. as he's always in a state of fighting his own nature, there's no telling how much of himself he holds back. The most recent issue of Origins shows Wolverine willing himself to give in to the animal making him run faster and faster as a result. It may be possible that Wovlerine simply tries to reserve himself, and as a result thinks too much.. It's something he's been accused of in combat before by other skilled fighters and coincidently his best feats of skill come from when he isn't thinking about the fight.
When it comes to his speed, it plays up or down based on who he's fighting as does anyone's in comics.. you guys act like Cap's never had problems with Crossbones or Batman's never got the drop on him by Joker. Which brings me to issue number two...
I think the thing that's bothersome here is that people recognize what character's typical performance levels entail, yet when you have a Batman thread or an Iron Fist thread, batkicks and trainwreckers get legitimately thrown into the debate and typical performance gets tossed to the forewind which makes us assess the characters from very high points in their career for the purpose of a fight. Yet, when it's Wolverine who's involved.. all the sudded we're forced to forget half of his career?
It seems a bit self serving to argue this way IMO.
You know do you have to write a novel everytime you reply to a post. 😬
Originally posted by jinzin
her strengths quite debateable based on feats...
As for the Chi fight in First Class.. He went there to learn something not for a fight, but he was holding his own, Chi scored the advantage due to plot device.. Dunno if that says much against Logan tbh.
Not really debateable since she doesn't have superhuman strength. By that logic Daredevil is debateable since he actually has lifting "feats" unlike Electra. But even I know DD does not have superhuman strength. He's not even at the peak of human potential.
Your right. Logan went there to learn something doesn't change the fact that he did "fight".
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Not really debateable since she doesn't have superhuman strength. By that logic Daredevil is debateable since he actually has lifting "feats" unlike Electra. But even I know DD does not have superhuman strength. He's not even at the peak of human potential.
Your right. Logan went there to learn something doesn't change the fact that he did "fight".
he didnt lose either their was no ko, kill.. the fight was over as soon as he almost fell, the fall wouldnt have killed him and he would have bn back in the fight... besides being hit with the staff in the face should have shattered logan wouldnt have budged because he has taken hits in the face with nunchucks with no effect logan should have shattered shangs swords with a casual hand swipe like he has done before.. 🙄
Originally posted by jinzin
her strengths quite debateable based on feats...
I know she did appear to block and then completely push back a blow from a 10 ton amped Silver Samurai. However I personally think she may have parried or used his own strength against him or some other technique. Just a thought.
In the very same fight she was also stated to be an olympic class athlete.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a scan of Captain America flat out palming a punch from 10 ton USAgent. That too would require a similar level of strength which I'm sure nobody would actually attribute to Cap.
As it stands I say Logan for the narrow win. I personally think he is slightly more skilled than both Cap and Bruce. As well as a bit faster.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
he didnt lose either their was no ko, kill.. the fight was over as soon as he almost fell, the fall wouldnt have killed him and he would have bn back in the fight... besides being hit with the staff in the face should have shattered logan wouldnt have budged because he has taken hits in the face with nunchucks with no effect logan should have shattered shangs swords with a casual hand swipe like he has done before.. 🙄
Logan didn't lose but point is Shang had the advantage. LOL again with the excuses.
Originally posted by Juk3n
No doubt, but then when people like Elektra "toy with him" makes me think otherwise. And as for letting himself get hit, sure i don't doubt that, afterall, he has an insane healing factor, but he has also let himself get hit by people who could KO him/incapacitate/badly damage him, in life or death fights which if we go by the 38ms standard is either PIS or bad writing, like his various ones with Sabretooth. Where was his 38ms feat then?
I freakin' cited the issue # in the post where I brought it up. 😛
Jinzin, that was a great post.
Originally posted by Warrior18
I know she did appear to block and then completely push back a blow from a 10 ton amped Silver Samurai. However I personally think she may have parried or used his own strength against him or some other technique. Just a thought.In the very same fight she was also stated to be an olympic class athlete.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a scan of Captain America flat out palming a punch from 10 ton USAgent. That too would require a similar level of strength which I'm sure nobody would actually attribute to Cap.
As it stands I say Logan for the narrow win. I personally think he is slightly more skilled than both Cap and Bruce. As well as a bit faster.
Elektra able to parry Silver Samurai is only one of multiple reason that would give one reason to think she has superhuman strength. Also I didn't state her strength at any specific level just that she has some degree of it.
Originally posted by Daredevil1I think it IS debateable that he's peak human in strength. His leg strength and some of his lifting feats are outright absurd.
Not really debateable since she doesn't have superhuman strength. By that logic Daredevil is debateable since he actually has lifting "feats" unlike Electra. But even I know DD does not have superhuman strength. He's not even at the peak of human potential.
Your right. Logan went there to learn something doesn't change the fact that he did "fight".
Originally posted by SamZED
Either Batman or Cap because Wolverine wouldn't survive having an adamantium skeleton without his hf.
In terms of MA skills I believe Logan and Cap are more experienced than Batman, but this is a very close fight. They all stand an equel chance.
Originally posted by jinzin
I think it IS debateable that he's peak human in strength. His leg strength and some of his lifting feats are outright absurd.
Anything can be debatable but Cap being superhuman is not. He's been dubbed the peak of human potential for a reason or even stated to be almost superhuman. His outlandish feats as outlandish as they are still what the peak of human potential can do.
Heck Cap ran about 60 mph that is superhuman by some of marvel standards I imagine but for Cap that is what the peak of human potential is capable of.
Cap WAS superhuman..... He's grossly beyond the peak of human potential and proved himself to be constantly. He may have been described several times throughout his entire career as peak but there should be no question as to his low-level superhumanhood.
At this point you're just defecting to an argument of title vs. feats and we all know feats are what matter.
From Cap's thread -
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Caps is above peak human. These are quotes from Ed Brubaker. Thanks go to Daredevil1 for finding them.http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=060330214926
"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman,[B] he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."
"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER. He's not superman, but clearly, he's been shown to be much faster and stronger than a well-trained athlete, many many times. One of everyone's favorite Cap appearances seems to be DD: Born Again, where he's shown running to fast that he's a breeze."
http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=060418204829&q=ed%20brubaker
"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either." [/B]
Originally posted by jinzin
Cap WAS superhuman..... He's grossly beyond the peak of human potential and proved himself to be constantly. He may have been described several times throughout his entire career as peak but there should be no question as to his low-level superhumanhood.At this point you're just defecting to an argument of title vs. feats and we all know feats are what matter.
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/af-02-05.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/af-02-06.jpg
