Alex Mercer vs Dante

Originally posted by The Scenario
It's like slashing your wrists with Occam's razor.

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Jester's Ma3+ for casual E&I dodging, the twins slashing a Ma3 rocket confirms this. Mach 3 when worn out.

Show me one Rain-claim of Dante that isnt backed up by the game. The 'stopped reading' is to indicate how the interest I had that youd show me a legit reason was trampled. But seriously, stasis field? I hope you have evidence to back this up. Because after the initial blase there's no indication that the lightning it effecting the glass, nor do we see anything change when the slow-mo stops.

Lol my Dante? Bro 8/10 people that know him on about any debating forum knows he's hypersonic, compared to the 1 known person on the net that believes in your Kain. And its actually 17; Three Mach 1's, five 3's, pair of 5's, four 10+ and three n a half lightnings. You do realise that by your logic Sonic is not supersonic for being tagged by much slower things... unless you do actually believe that Sonic is only peak human?

Ok so your counter is aim dodging from Jester, a rocket that moves at a few meters a second, hell Dante can stand on one with ease as it flies fairly slowly for a rocket around hte room and mach 3? lulz...

None of your claims are backed by the game while I have pointed out a handfull of evidence for Dante not having good reactions. Also I like how I need evidence to suggest the stasis field but you dont for Dantes speed boost, hilarious.

Yes "your" Dante, the one that has mach 15 reactions but cant best slow jabs from vergil and who has thousands of tons of strength but can only just about pull a sword from his chest or needs bullet energy impacts to push a sword into a glass oval when his strength fails him lol. "your Dante indeed.

And no, my logic does not suggest that. Dante is consistently tagged by people far slower than mach 15, therefore his reactions are not mach 15. I can name one time where he may be moving at mach 1 or 2 and thats while hes running down Temigiru tower or w/e its called.

Look, all I'm saying is there is no evidence for a "stasis field" whatsoever beyond something you made up. That is quite far from the simplest explanation with the fewest assumptions. Let me say it this way: Dante is known to be fast, the sword is not known to produce a stasis field, so which is more likely? That Dante is simply showing off his speed, or Alastor is demonstrating a completely new ability it never had before, will never have again, and is completely invisible?

If your first instinct is accuse me of trolling, I seriously doubt you're considering my words. There's no lightning, no static, no field surrounding Dante or the glass, absolutely nothing is supernaturally holding up the glass. Yes, Dante is supernaturally fast, but in the context of "glass floating" there is no evidence of anything supernatural holding it up.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Look, all I'm saying is there is no evidence for a "stasis field" whatsoever beyond something you made up. That is quite far from the simplest explanation with the fewest assumptions. Let me say it this way: Dante is known to be fast, the sword is not known to produce a stasis field, so which is more likely? That Dante is simply showing off his speed, or Alastor is demonstrating a completely new ability it never had before, will never have again, and is completely invisible?

If your first instinct is accuse me of trolling, I seriously doubt you're considering my words. There's no lightning, no static, no field surrounding Dante or the glass, absolutely nothing is supernaturally holding up the glass. Yes, Dante is supernaturally fast, but in the context of "glass floating" there is no evidence of anything supernatural holding it up.

Its a pretty simple explanation though, the magic sword created some kind of stasis and we see glass pretty much freeze in mid air, if youve got a clever explanation then lets have it. Alastor never shows that or any of those powers again iirc and Dantes known to be fast, that does not mean he gains 10,000 m/s speed while using the sowrd, thats not implied at all which as i said, is impossible given no friction, movement or sonic pressures.

Your claiming "supernatural powers" are not evident when clearly they are, and the glass starts to slow as soon as the lightning blasts it so clearly theres some power here. The whole event is supernatural, theres just as much a reason to suggest supernatural stasis as anything at the moment, a speed boost on the other hand is impossible because of the reasons I pointed out. Hell some of those glass piecies are inches from him, so unless they have become immune to gravity they should be launched all over the place from air pressure as I said, or shattered and thats ignoring the movement of the sword at the end or his clothes.

Dantes blind movement speed is probably mach 1, his actual reaction times, peak human.

Casually aim dodging several dozen bullets.. casual doesnt even describe dancing around. Rockets move at Mach 1-3. Gee, I wonder why Dante can surf on a Ma1-3 rocket 😐

"you love making up abilities", didnt answer what I asked. You want me to explain how a magical demonic weapon can increase speed? 😐 "Gives the possessor lightning speed(...)" then calcing it to be lightning speed. Ta-da, in-game quote and out-game calc. Now, one shred of evidence from you will be nice.

Hah yeah, totally sure that I'm the only person who thinks Dante is hypersonic. The sole person that believes this. Another dodge? Bad BT; "You do realise that by your logic Sonic is not supersonic for being tagged by much slower things... unless you do actually believe that Sonic is only peak human?" Well? Sonic was tagged my slow things, is he at peak speeds? Kratos puts effort into lifting doors, is he weaker than Link? You're chosing to ignore over a dozen speed feats just because of two scenes that have been explained in the game.

Aim dodging all the same, Dantes aim is obvious, theres no implication he sees each bullet and steps aside, if anything hes not even trying to dodge at all, hes a comic character. Some do, this one moves at about a meter or two a second. Theres no reason why he can...other than the thrust of the rocket is so weak it cant knock his bodyweight off unless your trying to give him spider man grip as well.

So you cant prove it, the in-game quote is general and can be just as much hypobole as anything else. my evidence is the same piece, the fact glass hovers without much if any momentum.

Lifting doors is gameplay, Dante getting impaled by Nero, needing bullets to make up for his strength and getting tagged by Vergil moving slowly is not. None of this is explained in the game apart from a rough implication why Jester can stomp Dante and Vergil, ime not using Jester as an example though, Dante being slow is shown, yes and explained but you dont like the canon it seems. Also, spitting out "dozen speed feats" and "Mach 15!!" over and over is a waste of time buddy.

Its a pretty simple explanation though, the magic sword created some kind of stasis and we see glass pretty much freeze in mid air, if youve got a clever explanation then lets have it.

Here's a simpler explanation: Dante's fast. There, done, we can all go home.

Alastor never shows that or any of those powers again iirc and Dantes known to be fast, that does not mean he gains 10,000 m/s speed while using the sowrd, thats not implied at all which as i said, is impossible given no friction, movement or sonic pressures.

The point of Alastor is to make Dante faster, as stated by the description of it giving the user lightning speed. The point of Alastor is not to trap everything nearby in a stasis field, which you just made up.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Here's a simpler explanation: Dante's fast. There, done, we can all go home.

The point of Alastor is to make Dante faster, as stated by the description of it giving the user lightning speed. The point of Alastor is not to trap everything nearby in a stasis field, which you just made up.

Not lightning fast though, thats not an explanation on why the glass is floating in the air. Infact thats just as much an explanation as me saying the "sword is magical" hence why the glass flies.

Thats what it did on screen though apprently, the description is hyperbole because as i said, physics on Dante at the time there do not imply lightning speed, or tens of thousands of m/s which BR made up, and you follow because you just want to argue with me, you have no counter yourself. If in-game descriptions were taken as face value Kains wolf form allows him to "move like lightning" 🙂

"Aim dodging all the same (...) if anything hes not even trying to dodge at all"

Aim dodging but not aim dodging, oh that makes sense.

Dante rides up buildings, he doesn't believe in traction. Ma3 rocket < Dante.

"Can't prove it"

Yes, I'm sure a direct quote with matching calcs < your random, evidentless idea. Speaking of, wheres that evidence?

"[u]Lifting doors is gameplay[u]"

Kay, Kratos visibly struggles against weaker foes, so he cant match Cronos. So you're 100% behind Sonic being at human speeds? Kewl.
I can say that as much as I like and it'll still be trump whatever youre saying;

17 Mach feats < 2 low feats.

17 Mach feats < 2 low feats that have an in-game reason for being that low.

17 Mach feats < your guesses.

Originally posted by BloodRain
"Aim dodging all the same (...) if anything hes not even trying to dodge at all"

Aim dodging but not aim dodging, oh that makes sense.

Dante rides up buildings, he doesn't believe in traction. Ma3 rocket < Dante.

"Can't prove it"

Yes, I'm sure a direct quote with matching calcs < your random, evidentless idea. Speaking of, wheres that evidence?

"[u]Lifting doors is gameplay[u]"

Kay, Kratos visibly struggles against weaker foes, so he cant match Cronos. So you're 100% behind Sonic being at human speeds? Kewl.
I can say that as much as I like and it'll still be trump whatever youre saying;

17 Mach feats < 2 low feats.

17 Mach feats < 2 low feats that have an in-game reason for being that low.

17 Mach feats < your guesses.

That logic can be taken into account with all of these scenes as well, "dante does not belive in speed", Dante does not belive in "logic", therefore most of his "feats" can be ignored like you ignore this.

You dont have a legit quote that aids you and your calcs are baseless, Ive shown my evidence, the glass floating in the air. The fact theres not a boom of air pressure or movement of clothing like a hurricane proves my thesis instantly and counters yours.

I dont know sonic so i dont have a clue why you keep bringing him up, getting all angry over Dante being slow is pointless until you provide proof.

😆 yeh, maybe ill give you a time out and simply reply to Scenarios more interesting replies than your spam my buddy ol pal.

Also despite the spam, I like how you think a numerical advantage of one feat allows you to ignore all others or negatives. Dantes never actually fought someone at high speed and won in the games, he may have ran around or aim dodged a few bullets but when hes serious and actually uses decent attacks he slows down, uses more power and gets stomped by someone not that quick, entrance to Nero and Vergil.

yeh, maybe ill give you a time out and simply reply to Scenarios more interesting replies than your spam my buddy ol pal.

Jeez, that's rude.

Not lightning fast though, thats not an explanation on why the glass is floating in the air. Infact thats just as much an explanation as me saying the "sword is magical" hence why the glass flies.

More like slow motion as an indicator of speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exPn1E9uiy4

I guess Samus has a stasis field generator in her suit that slows down charging enemies so she can dodge. Or it's just slow motion and you're making things up, which is frankly the more likely of the 2 choices.

Thats what it did on screen though apprently, the description is hyperbole because as i said, physics on Dante at the time there do not imply lightning speed, or tens of thousands of m/s which BR made up, and you follow because you just want to argue with me, you have no counter yourself. If in-game descriptions were taken as face value Kains wolf form allows him to "move like lightning"

I never claimed it should be taken at face value, and in fact I never did. I'm trying to point out that Alastor's ability is to make Dante faster. Alastor's ability is not, like you suggest, to make stasis fields. I don't care how fast Dante actually is, I object to you making up a reason to dismiss a legitimate feat.

Addressing the joke point to dodge the real point, how did I not see that coming...

Its a stasis field because you say so? And your evidence is your own thoughts?.... are you serious here?

So you believe that Sonic is peak human? Good to know.
Gonna ignore because you can't give real evidence? Can if you want, just be sure to get some later.

Neg feat 1- Jester hit him: Admitted by jester himself that he has an upper hand due to them being weakened.
Neg feat 2- Vergil hitting him with a slower hit: See above.

Easily explained. In fact as they can be explained their worth as negatives become void. 17 to 0. Your argument is that Dante hasn't fought anyone fast so his feats are null? Thats not even a counter. Alright, show me a scene where a serious, not worn out Dante is tagged by a slow attack. Vergil? Worn out. Jester? Worn out. Nero? Not serious. So do go ahead and direct me a scene.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Jeez, that's rude.

More like slow motion as an indicator of speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exPn1E9uiy4

I guess Samus has a stasis field generator in her suit that slows down charging enemies so she can dodge. Or it's just slow motion and you're making things up, which is frankly the more likely of the 2 choices.

I never claimed it should be taken at face value, and in fact I never did. I'm trying to point out that Alastor's ability is to make Dante faster. Alastor's ability is not, like you suggest, to make stasis fields. I don't care how fast Dante actually is, I object to you making up a reason to dismiss a legitimate feat.

So is spam and I thought i would take a leaf out of his book or w/e the saying is.

You claim its more likely, I thnk its far more viable magic has somehow frozen the glass as shown and that if it were slow motion, the glass should be falling slowly as well as Dantes clothing just like it was earlier but to just pretty much stop, not really. As for Samus, that doesnt have anything frozen in the air for long periods while she is moving.

Thats what it seemed to do there at that specific point, I know it makes him faster when you use it in-game since I have played it myself, but concerning that cinematic, actual speed is not shown. Whats legitimate about it exactly? your the one making thngs up and then being a hypocrite by saying I am the one doing so. We have hyperbole in the description, no physical implications of speed, infact if anything the whole scene is not a feat but rather the same as most of other DMC weapon acquire scenes, just him showing off skills with a weapon.

That happens for Cerberus, the Sparda sword, Agni and Rudra, reven etc. The only thing they dont do which is unique to this sword is stop objects in the air.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Addressing the joke point to dodge the real point, how did I not see that coming...

Its a stasis field because you say so? And your evidence is your own thoughts?.... are you serious here?

So you believe that Sonic is peak human? Good to know.
Gonna ignore because you can't give real evidence? Can if you want, just be sure to get some later.

Neg feat 1- Jester hit him: Admitted by jester himself that he has an upper hand due to them being weakened.
Neg feat 2- Vergil hitting him with a slower hit: See above.

Easily explained. In fact as they can be explained their worth as negatives become void. 17 to 0. Your argument is that Dante hasn't fought anyone fast so his feats are null? Thats not even a counter. Alright, show me a scene where a serious, not worn out Dante is tagged by a slow attack. Vergil? Worn out. Jester? Worn out. Nero? Not serious. So do go ahead and direct me a scene.

Hows that differetn from you? other than you claiming youve made some accurate calculation?

As I said, I am not pointing out the scene here, although he said they were tired from fighting, if a few minutes of fighting is enough to put him at human levels then hes even weaker than I thought, hes got no chance vs Mercer in that case.

Him being hit by Vergil is irrelevent there, he was not weak.....neither was vergil.

😆 He wasnt worn out in the DMC intro, he was just starting to fight, on top of that he was not "playing around" while being tossed about by Nero at the end, only at the beginning. Infact he was flickering in and out of Devil mode Nero was hitting him so much and he admitted at the end her underestimated him.

Also, so far its about 4 to 0 until you provide proof for all 17, also its relevent that its an in-combat feat, claiming someones running speed as typical movement in combat that they can use sword techniques in is nonsense, next youll be claiming he can do ever action at the same speed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He wasnt worn out in the DMC intro, he was just starting to fight, on top of that he was not "playing around" while being tossed about by Nero at the end, only at the beginning. Infact he was flickering in and out of Devil mode Nero was hitting him so much and he admitted at the end her underestimated him.

He was playng around during the second fight

30 seconds in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXkHzLsKvGw#t=30s

^👆

Dante was only serious twice in that game: "Aw, Credo's dead" and "Nero, you alive bro?"...thats it. The rest of the games a mere distraction.

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"the same as most of other DMC weapon acquire scenes, just him showing off skills with a weapon.(...) That happens for Cerberus, the Sparda sword, Agni and Rudra, reven etc."

Its true. With Cerberus he's showing its nunchaku features and skills as its described, Sparda's transformation feature as described, Agni & Rudra's flame&air elements as described and Nevan's Scyth moves as its described. Just like showing Ifrit's hellfire as described and Alastor's speed increase as described.

Every single demonstrations is based on in-game moves and/or the description of the weapon. Alastor is no different from the others by showing its described ability. Stasis/Area float ability is not stated in its movepool or description so its not the reason for it. That'd be inventing an ability for him.

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You just claimed that Jester is aim dodging then went to say that he doesnt see the bullet nor is he trying to dodge, contradicting what you said. Address it.

There's no time frame so your point is void. And wheres the stasis proof? Statements and calcs back me up, the only back up you have is a theory you cant prove, right?

If the fight before Jester made them weak so did this fight, as shown. Only difference being that Vergil > Dante back then shown by the cutscene of Dante being more worn out then Vergil and needing his sword to stand up.
No time frame, gameplay cutscene proves he was more out of it than Vergil. Wrong, Nero even admits that Dante was playing with him at their second fight. And wrong, as stated by the novel his DT can flash on when in the presence of a blood related DT. More proof:

GameTap: I noticed in the fight from the trailer that Nero is doing some pretty amazing things as well. Is that meant to suggest to people that Nero is just as good as Dante in a fight, if not better?

Hiroyuki Kobayashi: What I was trying to create in that scene was that Nero is a kid compared to Dante. Nero is just a kid even though he’s grown up. Dante is just playing with Nero and he’s just letting himself get hit and being like “Ah, that doesn’t hurt” or “Oh, getting hit by a sword, that doesn’t bother me.” He’s letting Nero hit him, but Nero--who thinks Dante is an enemy--is trying to take down Dante with all of his might. But Dante is just toying with him. Having said that, as the game goes, Nero gets stronger and stronger and although it’s not explicitly said, it’s almost like Dante tells Nero can be the hero now. It’s almost a changing of the guard for the heroes in the series.

Lol its not even 1 until you can get actually prove you're right. I'll gladly post the handful of 18 feats (saw a new one) with explanations and reasons to boot if you can even get a single negative point. So far your Jester and Vergil points are dismissed for Dante being worn out, with your Nero point being dismissed by Nero's and Hiroyuki's quotes. Besides ignoring statements there are no negative points.

Originally posted by BloodRain
^👆

Dante was only serious twice in that game: "Aw, Credo's dead" and "Nero, you alive bro?"...thats it. The rest of the games a mere distraction.

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"the same as most of other DMC weapon acquire scenes, just him showing off skills with a weapon.(...) That happens for Cerberus, the Sparda sword, Agni and Rudra, reven etc."

Its true. With Cerberus he's showing its nunchaku features and skills as its described, Sparda's transformation feature as described, Agni & Rudra's flame&air elements as described and Nevan's Scyth moves as its described. Just like showing Ifrit's hellfire as described and Alastor's speed increase as described.

Every single demonstrations is based on in-game moves and/or the description of the weapon. Alastor is no different from the others by showing its described ability. Stasis/Area float ability is not stated in its movepool or description so its not the reason for it. That'd be inventing an ability for him.

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You just claimed that Jester is aim dodging then went to say that he doesnt see the bullet nor is he trying to dodge, contradicting what you said. Address it.

There's no time frame so your point is void. And wheres the stasis proof? Statements and calcs back me up, the only back up you have is a theory you cant prove, right?

If the fight before Jester made them weak so did this fight, as shown. Only difference being that Vergil > Dante back then shown by the cutscene of Dante being more worn out then Vergil and needing his sword to stand up.
No time frame, gameplay cutscene proves he was more out of it than Vergil. Wrong, Nero even admits that Dante was playing with him at their second fight. And wrong, [b]as stated by the novel his DT can flash on when in the presence of a blood related DT. More proof:

Lol its not even 1 until you can get actually prove you're right. I'll gladly post the handful of 18 feats (saw a new one) with explanations and reasons to boot if you can even get a single negative point. So far your Jester and Vergil points are dismissed for Dante being worn out, with your Nero point being dismissed by Nero's and Hiroyuki's quotes. Besides ignoring statements there are no negative points. [/B]

Is the novel canon?

I don't understand, what's more confirmation of lightning speed other than a direct weapon description?

Originally posted by Kuja9001
Is the novel canon?

You claim its more likely, I thnk its far more viable magic has somehow frozen the glass as shown and that if it were slow motion, the glass should be falling slowly as well as Dantes clothing just like it was earlier but to just pretty much stop, not really. As for Samus, that doesnt have anything frozen in the air for long periods while she is moving.

It's an effect to illustrate that Dante is moving so fast that objects near appear to be standing still, is it really this hard to grasp? What is your evidence that Alastor is able to stop objects, given it's powerset? Again, Alastor makes Dante faster, it has never had any ability to stop objects, so it is much more likely that Dante is simply moving faster, just like what Alastor is known to do. Try to think about consistency; why would an object that make its user faster have the magical ability to stop falling objects, which is never used again? On the other hand, it is shown to make Dante faster even after this, so logically the "show off" prtion of this would Alastor's main ability, which is...? Speed.

Samus shows the same effect, an object is moving slower in order to make her appear faster. It's not stopped, obviously, but it's the same effect.

Thats what it seemed to do there at that specific point, I know it makes him faster when you use it in-game since I have played it myself, but concerning that cinematic, actual speed is not shown. Whats legitimate about it exactly? your the one making thngs up and then being a hypocrite by saying I am the one doing so. We have hyperbole in the description, no physical implications of speed, infact if anything the whole scene is not a feat but rather the same as most of other DMC weapon acquire scenes, just him showing off skills with a weapon.

So you know that the weapon makes Dante faster, you know it's stated to make Dante faster, you know the purpose of the cutscene is to show the ability of the weapon (i.e: make Dante faster) , and you still think it's a stasis field? No, you're incorrect about there not being an indication of speed. The indication is the slowdown effect, you know this. Slowing down or stopping other objects is a common tactic to make things appear fast, see again the Samus example. We have a description stating speed, we have an indication of speed, you have nothing but an outright guess that has no basis in any part of the scene.

Further, you don't seem to know what the word "hypocrite" means. I suggest you stop using it as an automatic "you're wrong" buzzword.

Originally posted by BloodRain
The jury's not out on that. Though Capcom reps at Captivate implied so and the writer was the scenario writer of DMC 3 and 4. Seems very likely that its canon.

that same writer was a ex-capcom guy, plus the novel contradicts things.