Originally posted by StiltmanFTWdaken doesn't KNOW how fast DP is, he can say im just as fast as you, bu then how would he know how fast DP is exactly when he's using his pheromones the entire time to bounce around him?
He meant that he ain't a speedster, but he doesn't think that he's slower than DP... whose speed feats are pretty impressive.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWone hting I realized, the pheromones not harm toxin for the reason that he is two personalities very different from venom who completely controls his host most of the time, toxin and paul(?), are entirely separate, he could make paul sad or scared, this however would have no effect on how the symbiote felt who could in pauls weakened mental state, take complete control over the body.
Daken didn't even use his pheromones to the full effect...
Originally posted by Battlehammerdaken saying he's as fast as deadpool doesn't mae him as fast as deadpool...and spiderman said that because daken was using his pheromones to screw with his perception and what he witnessed was completely different from what actually happened
Yes I do see things wrong with his power level and it controdicts the encylopdia which I aint surprized since hand books, encyclopedias constantly do this.Daken ment speedster levels, he also stated he had the same speed as deadpool who been stated with superhuman speed on pannel. He also been stated as fast as his father, who also has similar statements of superhuman speed and feats of speed blizting others.
Capt for one has superhuman speed. He the next step in human evolution it staight up impossiable for a human to get as fast as him. Makinjg him superhuman. No matter how you want to spinn it hand books are not better then or equal to that of on pannel evidences period and trying to make it so wont happen.
Originally posted by BattlehammerAre we talking about Spiderman and Daken or my point in the entire thread? His raw speed hit him easily because he was under the affect of his powers, and when he coutneracted it, he got owned. It's no different than Kingpin or anyone else "hitting Spiderman". Spiderman has given characters like Stark a hard time and outmaneuvered him head up, on more than one occasion. Do I go by those multiple instances or the ones that are lower. Spiderman simply shot a web at him, it was hardly the best speed showing for Spiderman.
ecpt his raw speed was still easily enough to hit spiderman, spiderman also comments how he as fast as his father when he easily with out the uses of the pheramones dodges an attack.spiderman is not levels above daken in speed, he not even on a different level. There in the same speed class, spiderman slightly faster, but not by any real advantage that be notices.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Are we talking about Spiderman and Daken or my point in the entire thread? His raw speed hit him easily because he was under the affect of his powers, and when he coutneracted it, he got owned. It's no different than Kingpin or anyone else "hitting Spiderman". Spiderman has given characters like Stark a hard time and outmaneuvered him head up, on more than one occasion. Do I go by those multiple instances or the ones that are lower. Spiderman simply shot a web at him, it was hardly the best speed showing for Spiderman.
Why waste your time. These wolverine guys are nutz yakko02
Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
Why waste your time. These wolverine guys are nutz yakko02
This discussion really has nothing to do with being fans of Wolverine or any other character for that matter, it's all about what we as individuals think to be admissible evidence in the VS. Forum.
C-master has never seen comic feats to be the out-liner for what characters can do and instead relies on stats, and powersets, subjecting them to his logic and going from there, so there's little wonder why, he doesn't deem most street levels to be in the same league as Spiderman, because according to flat figures, they aren't.
I don't have a problem with how he draws this conclusion, my only problem with this is that he's separating the figures from what the characters have actually done and stating it holds more precedence over actual comic events... Many do not adhere to this rationale, and it's certainly not pertained to things like the forum's tourneys around here, so I and most others are not comfortable with this.
See, the thing is that regardless of Spiderman's IDEAL placement against his peers, he simply has not proven to perform at a standard far above their quality. This has been an issue of his since his first appearances. He's TYPICALLY and CONSISTENTLY shown to operate at a level seemingly on par to most street levels. Perhaps slightly above them but not in another league.
This is inclusive of h2h fights between Spiderman and most decent street levels AND to feats of comparable nature. Spiderman doesn't even have random and generic feats that place him on a tier above most high end streets.
When it comes to Wolverine specifically, you have to understand that the only time Spiderman's EVER shown to have a significant speed advantage to Wolverine was the first time they ever met in combat. Since then it's ALWAYS been a different story.
Multiple fights of Wolverine tagging Spiderman in combat or negotiating his speed.
Multiple instances of Wolverine reacting too fast to things for Spiderman to react to; things like oncoming cars, thugs, etc.
At least 2 where Wolverine started killing thugs before Spiderman could process trying to stop him.
Saving Spiderman from danger a few times.
And most importantly.... A flat out insinuation of hesitation on Spiderman's speed against Logan's own. Spiderman has not had many fights, if any that I can recall where he's had to question his speed against his opponents at the street level.
And, Daken's fight was the only other one I could possibly think of off the top of my head. Now you have to question, if Daken's speed wasn't worth mentioning, then why DID they mention it? It would have no effect on the storyline one way or the other unless it WAS worth mentioning to explain why Spiderman's SS wasn't helping him dodge attacks or web Daken up... until he focused completely on it to land his attacks.
On paper, Spiderman SHOULD be 2 leagues above most street levels.
In Comics, it's never been the case and it doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon. Spiderman and Wolverine being in the same league of speed is just the way it's been.
You CAN disagree based on stats and idealic nature, but you CAN'T make other people judge matches based on that kind of rationale.... for some... well for most, comics simply hold more salt than anything else including handbook statements and powercharts. That said, as Hammer stated, Toxin may be faster, but it's not going to be to a degree that Daken couldn't keep up with.... not going by what he's done... 😬
Originally posted by jinzinIt does have quite a bit to do with being fans of certain characters on the forum. At the end of the day, most people, even average comic fans know Spiderman is faster than these two characters, as was the concensus years ago, and even now. That whole argument didn't come in until riceroost came about.
This discussion really has nothing to do with being fans of Wolverine or any other character for that matter, it's all about what we as individuals think to be admissible evidence in the VS. Forum.
Originally posted by jinzinI don't agree there, I just try to use a balance of everything altogether. Stats might not always be shot on, but comics have consistency issues too, and using featwars really goes nowhere because of the simple fact that the comics have ups and down for the characters and the powersets cater to the story and the story doesn't cater to the powersets. It's really hard to use just ONE form of evidence, and I believe that characters should have some leeway. I for instance don't think that Cap or Wolverine can simply lift 800 lbs MAX. I just don't think they are casual superhuman characters, peak and enhanced perhaps, they CAN lift 1,000 lbs or so, but not casually like Spiderman or a true superhuman would be able to.
C-master has never seen comic feats to be the out-liner for what characters can do and instead relies on stats, and powersets, subjecting them to his logic and going from there, so there's little wonder why, he doesn't deem most street levels to be in the same league as Spiderman, because according to flat figures, they aren't.
Originally posted by jinzin
I don't have a problem with how he draws this conclusion, my only problem with this is that he's separating the figures from what the characters have actually done and stating it holds more precedence over actual comic events... Many do not adhere to this rationale, and it's certainly not pertained to things like the forum's tourneys around here, so I and most others are not comfortable with this.
Tourney's go off of different rules than the average debate, I made a thread on this two years ago, very specific and (before it got closed) it was pretty clear what the forum thought. I don't just throw up some charts and say they count and nothing else does, but I don't dismiss them because they are solid guidelines that help regulate featwars and remove silly abc logic. I mean by simple featwars characters like Superman really beat just about anybody because he's done damn near everything, but it just doesn't work the same way here. In a comic Robin would "tag Spiderman" just like Flash would get "Tagged" by boomerangs or other such nonsense despite that fact that PIS doesn't work here and isn't contingent on consistency.
How do we argue Flash vs. Batman if we know in a comic that Batman would find some way to win, even though we all know he stands no chance here? Logic and what we know the character is capable of and can consistently do. Two established characters in a fight in a comic are almost always going to be even. Wolverine might give Hulk a fight in a comic, but here he loses soundly. Characters do what the story wants them to do. The writers don't say, "Hey let's make this downright as accurate as possible" (which would probably be boring eventually). They want to tell a story, which takes the front row stage to consideration of their abilities. Always.
Originally posted by jinzin
See, the thing is that regardless of Spiderman's IDEAL placement against his peers, he simply has not proven to perform at a standard far above their quality. This has been an issue of his since his first appearances. He's TYPICALLY and CONSISTENTLY shown to operate at a level seemingly on par to most street levels. Perhaps slightly above them but not in another league.
This is inclusive of h2h fights between Spiderman and most decent street levels AND to feats of comparable nature. Spiderman doesn't even have random and generic feats that place him on a tier above most high end streets.
Only when he fights them does he fight "on their level" and that is when he is fighting other big time characters, that will always happen no different than DS or Flash. He will get tagged by Kingpin or some thug or something, but is that the best he is capable of considering he holds back, has great amounts of strength in a light body, and has given higher level characters great fights a NUMEROUS amount of times, *even* when he has been outnumbered?
Originally posted by jinzinDidn't he dodge all of those lasers in front of him with ease while Wolverine watched.
When it comes to Wolverine specifically, you have to understand that the only time Spiderman's EVER shown to have a significant speed advantage to Wolverine was the first time they ever met in combat. Since then it's ALWAYS been a different story.
Originally posted by jinzinAre you talking about the MK mini where he wouldn't allow him to anyone?
Multiple fights of Wolverine tagging Spiderman in combat or negotiating his speed.
Multiple instances of Wolverine reacting too fast to things for Spiderman to react to; things like oncoming cars, thugs, etc.
At least 2 where Wolverine started killing thugs before Spiderman could process trying to stop him.
Saving Spiderman from danger a few times.
Originally posted by jinzin
And most importantly.... A flat out insinuation of hesitation on Spiderman's speed against Logan's own. Spiderman has not had many fights, if any that I can recall where he's had to question his speed against his opponents at the street level.
He says, "He might be (as fast or faster) than me. No! Nobody is faster" and he tosses him. Spiderman questions himself all of the time. He has also stated to be 40x faster than a human and Wolverine has stated SPiderman can kill him, it goes in circles.
Originally posted by jinzin
And, Daken's fight was the only other one I could possibly think of off the top of my head. Now you have to question, if Daken's speed wasn't worth mentioning, then why DID they mention it? It would have no effect on the storyline one way or the other unless it WAS worth mentioning to explain why Spiderman's SS wasn't helping him dodge attacks or web Daken up... until he focused completely on it to land his attacks.
Originally posted by jinzin
On paper, Spiderman SHOULD be 2 leagues above most street levels.
In Comics, it's never been the case and it doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon. Spiderman and Wolverine being in the same league of speed is just the way it's been.
If that is the case then even characters like Robin, Shang, DP, and Kingpin are all equally fast due to them hitting each other and the heroes doing typical hero feats like dodging bullets and lasers, moving with after images, etc... it simply isn't the case on a forum.
Originally posted by jinzinThat's the beauty of debating, there will always be something to argue about. I'm not even trying to make anybody "change" their rationale, and furthermore I wasn't even directly bringing up Spiderman vs Wolverine OR Daken, rather that characters doing similar feats in the comicbook does NOT make them all the same speed, it is all on interpretation really.
You CAN disagree based on stats and idealic nature, but you CAN'T make other people judge matches based on that kind of rationale.... for some... well for most, comics simply hold more salt than anything else including handbook statements and powercharts. That said, as Hammer stated, Toxin may be faster, but it's not going to be to a degree that Daken couldn't keep up with.... not going by what he's done... 😬
Another thing that annoys me is that with strength feats, when a character like Cap or Wolverine do a few high end feats their character is suddenly that set, why is it that it doesn't apply to Spiderman who has done things like lift tanks and flip over subcars? That's another debate I guess.
Toxin is far superior physically than Spiderman, Venom, or Carnage. Will Daken be able to see him? Yes, but Toxin has a very solid advantage in that aspect.
This is a good post that explains how I feel on using *featwars* and nothing else with it with regards to nothing (not accusing anyone here, just making a point). This post is by Enaylus. I believe that's how you spell it.
Originally posted by Enaylus"No look, I can prove it:
Superman vs. Galactus. Who wins? Galactus is the sensible answer, right? Now lets go by feats and see where that line of reasoning takes us:
Superman has traveled 25 lightyears in the time it takes to say about four sentences. That means he's millions of times faster than light. Superman has vibrated intangible in combat against Doomsday, and has also vibrated to match specific universal frequencies to stop dimensions from collapsing. That means he can't be hit. Superman's lifted a book with infinite mass with help from Captain Marvel. But half of infinity is still infinity. Plus, Ultraman who is roughly equal to Superman and whom Superman has beaten in the space lifted it by himself. That means Superman has infinite strength. Superman is durable enough to fly through black holes and double-black holes like they're made of bubble gum. That means he's more durable than...um, stars?
"But Eny what about Supes' weaknesses lulz!?" Okay. Superman has been struck with a blast of red solar radiation right in the chest by a nebula-sized monster (Sun Eater) and was still powerful enough to toss an entropy bomb at it and escape the explosion at FTL speeds. "Ur forgetting about K-nite, Eny!?" Okay. Superman's had his blood transmuted into Kryptonite by Cosmic King. Superman fought through it and one-shot him.
Superman's also resisted top tier matter manipulation, reality manipulation, and psychic manipulation - sometimes at the universal-scale level.
Let's review, shall we: Superman is millions of times FTL with infinite strength and his weaknesses don't mean a damn thing. He can't lose to Galactus.
But he does 😬 Damn. Feats suck."
C. I'm not trying to debate with you and that wasn't even a direct reply to what you've said, we both know if you and I go at it, it'll just go in circles either endlessly or 'til this thread gets closed so I feel there's really no need to as it'll just be another waste of both of our more valuable time, and I actually like you now so I don't want to rekindle old rivalries either. 😬
That said, you have your rationale, other people have theirs, and comic book evidence isn't precluded from being used in these debates by forum rule so whomever can use them at will and if some choose to listen, then that's their perogative, as it is if they don't.
In regards to Spidey/Wolverine. Yes Spiderman also has good showings against Wolverine. Not trying to say Wolverine is better just trying to make the point that neither have a clear superiority in the speed department on panel, and certainly not a clear and consistent one. This is a simple fact that has nothing to do with favoritism or opinion.
In regards to Spidey/Streets. Spidey does well against powerful characters as they usually lack skills that Streets have. If Spiderman's physicality was enough to secure him a suitable advantage over them it would be clear and consistent by now, but that hasn't been the case.
For Toxin, his only superiority to Venom or Carnage so far has been in sheer power... I haven't seen a clear advantage in speed yet. 😬
As for the rest; I don't agree with a lot of what you say so lets just leave it at that.
You've always loved me... 😛 Either way, have fun guys, I won't be around until much later, and I'm almost certain Battlehammer will get to my post, but I'm just too busy lol. I'm not much into the heavy debating scene, more like discussing like at my forum. The multiquote "pwnage" thing just isn't me anymore. I just want to discuss things I do/don't agree with.
Yea, there really isn't a point to "debate" about, we've been doing that for years. You and I will feel different about certain things. But my point wasn't originally even Spiderman vs. Streets, just using featwars and nothing else. I just don't want to rely on one thing. Spiderman will always "get tagged" in a fight with another major character, but I doubt they'll be portrayed faster.
I'm too busy to keep this up, gotta take care of my company, and my truck broke down so I need to get another... part of why I haven't tested. 🙁 Will have to wait until November most likely, because tests take a while to sign off and there are so many students to instructors. Unless they figured out a faster way, probably the one thing about our system I don't like.
I know the moves though, just some tweaks here and there and I should be fine.
What rank are you now?
Originally posted by jinzin
This discussion really has nothing to do with being fans of Wolverine or any other character for that matter, it's all about what we as individuals think to be admissible evidence in the VS. Forum.C-master has never seen comic feats to be the out-liner for what characters can do and instead relies on stats, and powersets, subjecting them to his logic and going from there, so there's little wonder why, he doesn't deem most street levels to be in the same league as Spiderman, because according to flat figures, they aren't.
I don't have a problem with how he draws this conclusion, my only problem with this is that he's separating the figures from what the characters have actually done and stating it holds more precedence over actual comic events... Many do not adhere to this rationale, and it's certainly not pertained to things like the forum's tourneys around here, so I and most others are not comfortable with this.
See, the thing is that regardless of Spiderman's IDEAL placement against his peers, he simply has not proven to perform at a standard far above their quality. This has been an issue of his since his first appearances. He's TYPICALLY and CONSISTENTLY shown to operate at a level seemingly on par to most street levels. Perhaps slightly above them but not in another league.
This is inclusive of h2h fights between Spiderman and most decent street levels AND to feats of comparable nature. Spiderman doesn't even have random and generic feats that place him on a tier above most high end streets.When it comes to Wolverine specifically, you have to understand that the only time Spiderman's EVER shown to have a significant speed advantage to Wolverine was the first time they ever met in combat. Since then it's ALWAYS been a different story.
Multiple fights of Wolverine tagging Spiderman in combat or negotiating his speed.
Multiple instances of Wolverine reacting too fast to things for Spiderman to react to; things like oncoming cars, thugs, etc.
At least 2 where Wolverine started killing thugs before Spiderman could process trying to stop him.
Saving Spiderman from danger a few times.And most importantly.... A flat out insinuation of hesitation on Spiderman's speed against Logan's own. Spiderman has not had many fights, if any that I can recall where he's had to question his speed against his opponents at the street level.
And, Daken's fight was the only other one I could possibly think of off the top of my head. Now you have to question, if Daken's speed wasn't worth mentioning, then why DID they mention it? It would have no effect on the storyline one way or the other unless it WAS worth mentioning to explain why Spiderman's SS wasn't helping him dodge attacks or web Daken up... until he focused completely on it to land his attacks.
On paper, Spiderman SHOULD be 2 leagues above most street levels.
In Comics, it's never been the case and it doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon. Spiderman and Wolverine being in the same league of speed is just the way it's been.You CAN disagree based on stats and idealic nature, but you CAN'T make other people judge matches based on that kind of rationale.... for some... well for most, comics simply hold more salt than anything else including handbook statements and powercharts. That said, as Hammer stated, Toxin may be faster, but it's not going to be to a degree that Daken couldn't keep up with.... not going by what he's done... 😬
Dude you didn't have to type all that. You are a really good poster. I have even seen you admit Wolverine would lose to Doc Ock. I didn't mean all Wolverine fans.
Just ones who say certain things like,
OMEGA RED HAS TWO TENTACILES THEREFORE WOLVERINE WOULD NOT LOSE TO DOC OCK!!.
Well Doc has two more tentaciles.....
"SO WHAT OMEGA RED HAS THEM,
But dude he has two extra ones. .....
"SO WHAT OMEGA RED HAS THEM,
but dude his are not Adamantium. .....
"SO WHAT OMEGA RED HAS THEM.
There are tons of other examples, but you are not one of the people I was talking about.
Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
Dude you didn't have to type all that. You are a really good poster. I have even seen you admit Wolverine would lose to Doc Ock. I didn't mean all Wolverine fans.Just ones who say certain things like,
OMEGA RED HAS TWO TENTACILES THEREFORE WOLVERINE WOULD NOT LOSE TO DOC OCK!!.
Well Doc has two more tentaciles.....
"SO WHAT OMEGA RED HAS THEM,
But dude he has two extra ones. .....
"SO WHAT OMEGA RED HAS THEM,but dude his are not Adamantium. .....
"SO WHAT OMEGA RED HAS THEM.
There are tons of other examples, but you are not one of the people I was talking about.
who arguement was that? The only arguements I remeber hearing were that omega red has them as well though they may only be two he has superhuman stats him self as well as other very deadly attributes that make him vastly more formiable then Doc Ock.
Oh and by the was omega red tenticles are made of a type of adamatium Doc Ocks are currently not made out of adamatium
Originally posted by Trackz
they had one fight in which deadpool distorted his senses, and deadpool barely moved in the fight save for swinging and missing, I don't believe daken could accurately predict his speed in that short scuffle.
Dude. Daken was spying on his father. He wanted to kill him himself, he blamed him for Itsu's death...
He witnessed the whole Wolverine vs. DP fight.