Spider-Man vs Punisher

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Those scans show that Castle is capable of handling himself in combat, sure. In both scans, Spider-Man and Nightcrawler were trying to apprehend him without really hurting him. I don't know what the hell kind of pose-offs their doing in the last scan. They don't suggested anything to show he'd do any better against a blood-lusted Spider-Man.

The point is that if he was trying to kill him he would have still lost. What would he have done differently if he was trying to kill him? He would have tried to web him and Punisher would have still dodged. He also could have used full-strength punches but he would actually have to get into contact with him to do that and as you can see in the second example Punisher dodged his attacks.

In the first example he had to deal with both Spiderman and NC. If NC was trying to kill him what would he have done differently he most likley would have tried to do the samething its not like he has class 10 strength or adamantuim claws. Considering Pun was trying to deal with 2 people at the same time its not a stretch that Pun would have taken Spiderman out before he could do anything lethal.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The point is that if he was trying to kill him he would have still lost. What would he have done differently if he was trying to kill him? He would have tried to web him and Punisher would have still dodged. He also could have used full-strength punches but he would actually have to get into contact with him to do that and as you can see in the second example Punisher dodged his attacks.

In the first example he had to deal with both Spiderman and NC. If NC was trying to kill him what would he have done differently he most likley would have tried to do the samething its not like he has class 10 strength or adamantuim claws. Considering Pun was trying to deal with 2 people at the same time its not a stretch that Pun would have taken Spiderman out before he could do anything lethal.

I'm sure I can provide you with tons of scans of Spider-Man dodging bullets from everyone from lowly thugs to accomplished marksmen. Why are you only taking Castle's feat(s) into consideration?

You're assuming blood-lusted Spider-Man would have reacted in the same manner as in those scans, and that just isn't true. Why did Nightcrawler bother to tackle Castle instead of teleporting him off the lift? Spider-Man could have flipped it, or pulled the cable off at one end. If they were bloodlusted, they could've easily let Castle fall to his death... but they didn't because he and Spider-man were only trying to apprehend Castle.

Anyhow, I gave both Spider-Man and the Punisher a 50/50 chance of winning... There's no majority, so why do you bother to argue against Spider-Man's chances here? What do you think the outcome would be?

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
I'm sure I can provide you with tons of scans of Spider-Man dodging bullets from everyone from lowly thugs to accomplished marksmen. Why are you only taking Castle's feat(s) into consideration?

because were talking about the Punisher. Obvoulsy the most logical thing to do is give feats concerned with the Punisher just because he can dodge other gun men doesnt mean he can dodge the Punisher when I have scans to prove he cant...c'mon now. 😬

Im absoultely baffled as to why you would complain about me focusing on feats of Punisher vs Spiderman when were in a Spiderman vs Punisher thread.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

You're assuming blood-lusted Spider-Man would have reacted in the same manner as in those scans, and that just isn't true. Why did Nightcrawler bother to tackle Castle instead of teleporting him off the lift? Spider-Man could have flipped it, or pulled the cable off at one end. If they were bloodlusted, they could've easily let Castle fall to his death... but they didn't because he and Spider-man were only trying to apprehend Castle.

By the way you're focusing on one example, all that proves is that they would have killed Punisher if he was sitting in a cable car that doesnt apply to a wide open space on the ground. Furthermore its 2 vs 1 so stating that they could both kill him doesnt prove that a bloodlusted Spiderman would.

I can also give other examples.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Anyhow, I gave both Spider-Man and the Punisher a 50/50 chance of winning... There's no majority, so why do you bother to argue against Spider-Man's chances here? What do you think the outcome would be?

Punisher wins the majority for the reasons already stated. 7/8-10

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Um because were talking about the Punisher.

By the way you're focusing on one example, all that proves is that they would have killed Punisher if he was sitting in a cable car that doesnt apply to a wide open space on the ground. Furthermore its 2 vs 1 so stating that they could both kill him doesnt prove that a bloodlusted Spiderman would.

Punisher wins the majority for the reasons already stated. 7/8-10

Jesus Christ...

1) You're discrediting Spider-Man's bullet-dodging feats just because he's facing the Punisher....

A bullet travels at the same velocity no matter who pulls the trigger. Spider-Man has been shown to dodge whole barrages of bullets, but somehow Castle can hit him every time, or even most of the time? Bullshit. That's just some outrageous Punisher wanking there.

If Battlehammer, Jinzin, or Srank were to say "Wolverine [is unaffected by/dodges] Punisher's bullets, because he's Wolverine." you (and many others) would have a total *****-fit about it... That kind of argument does not hold any merit. It's almost like saying "He wins because he's cooler."

2) In an open field, Nightcrawler could still teleport, grab Castle, teleport several hundred feet in the air, let go, and then teleport to church just in time for a confession.

In this debate, Spider-Man has a 50/50 chance of getting past Castle's gunfire and punch his head off. Likewise, Castle has a 50/50 chance of mowing down Spider-Man as he moves in for the kill.

You're delusional if you think the Punisher wins a majority.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Jesus Christ...

1) You're discrediting Spider-Man's bullet-dodging feats just because he's facing the Punisher....

Thats a gross misrepresentation of what im saying. I showed you two scans one of him shooting him another shows him getting him with a knife, I also stated there were other examples that illustrated this point. If I actually didnt have scans I would see your point. Also another example is designer genes. Punisher was missing Spiderman by inches but was aiming to wound, however he managed to shoot Sabretooth who he was trying to kill. In that comic Sabretooth was shown to be faster than Spiderman.

Furthermore just because Spdierman can dodge other skillful gun men and barrage of bullets doesnt mean he can dodge The Punisher if there is evidence to show otherwise. Punisher has beaten Bullseye twice and stalemated Moon Knight logically Punisher shouldnt get humiliated by Dardevil but he has on numerous ocassion.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

A bullet travels at the same velocity no matter who pulls the trigger. Spider-Man has been shown to dodge whole barrages of bullets,

Cap, DD, Shang Chi and Iron Fist cant punch anywhere near the speed of a bullet but are capable of punching Spiderman. Even if they travel at the same speed Punisher can predict where his opponent is going to be which is what has enabled him to shoot opponents faster than Spiderman (mutant speedster Burnout). Many a time in comics slower opponents get faster one by predicting where they will be Punisher is also not the only expert gun man that can shoot bullet dodgers (Bushwacker)

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
but somehow Castle can hit him every time, or even most of the time? Bullshit. That's just some outrageous Punisher wanking there.

If Battlehammer, Jinzin, or Srank were to say "Wolverine [is unaffected by/dodges] Punisher's bullets, because he's Wolverine." you (and many others) would have a total *****-fit about it... That kind of argument does not hold any merit. It's almost like saying "He wins because he's cooler."

Punisher has a 60 percent chance of shooting Spiderman based on the fact that hes shown on numerous ocassion of having the capability of shooting Spiderman. The reason why the percentage isnt highier is because Spiderman has managed to dodge Punishers bullets on many ocassion but I dont think its for the majority. I think thats perfectly reasonable.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

2) In an open field, Nightcrawler could still teleport, grab Castle, teleport several hundred feet in the air, let go, and then teleport to church just in time for a confession.

Its a possibilty but this isnt Nightcrawler vs Punisher.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

In this debate, Spider-Man has a 50/50 chance of getting past Castle's gunfire and punch his head off. Likewise, Castle has a 50/50 chance of mowing down Spider-Man as he moves in for the kill.

You're delusional if you think the Punisher wins a majority.

Its highly unlikley that Spiderman will get the majority over Punisher after getting punked by Punisher on numerous ocassions and not being able to outsmart him. Now punisher has Pym partcles, Titanuims Mans glove, Hawkeyes arrows, Taskmasters Shield, a gun that that creates ice with a mass as dense as a small sun, Sonic emitters and the Satans Claw that can do this...

Also he has a gun like this.

Spiderman dies.

Not sure who would win but why are so many saying he doesn't use prep? Ok he's not Batman but he still used it lot's of times

(all the ones already stated)
Maximum Carnage: He and Venom get the Sonic gun for carnage
Another encounter with Carnage: he gets some kind of Sonic/heat gun again (couldn't use it because Carnage destroyed it before)
(while your reading this im checking my ciomics for other examples)

and isn't debating here based on feats instead of low showings?
I think this fits also with prep if he has prep time and doesn't use it it's kinda low showing, I mean really if we really take this fight for "comic real" and tell Spidey: Hey Punisher is comin' for ya @ss he's preping 2 days and when he's goin' to kill ya!

you really think he wouln't use his prep time either?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Not sure who would win but why are so many saying he doesn't use prep? Ok he's not Batman but he still used it lot's of times

(all the ones already stated)
Maximum Carnage: He and Venom get the Sonic gun for carnage
Another encounter with Carnage: he gets some kind of Sonic/heat gun again (couldn't use it because Carnage destroyed it before)
(while your reading this im checking my ciomics for other examples)

and isn't debating here based on feats instead of low showings?
I think this fits also with prep if he has prep time and doesn't use it it's kinda low showing, I mean really if we really take this fight for "comic real" and tell Spidey: Hey Punisher is comin' for ya @ss he's preping 2 days and when he's goin' to kill ya!

you really think he wouln't use his prep time either?

The vast majority of times he doesnt use prep and hasnt against Punisher. What low showings? I mean Punsiher has gased Spiderman and hit him with a sonic attack. Spiderman has never thought to have some sort of gas mask or ear plugs.

Isn't it a bit out of character for a genius to be a complete moron? I mean, here's how you think Spidey's prep would go: "Spiderman suit-check, webbing-check, hearty breakfast-check. Alright, I should be good, just fighting a smart guy who uses a crapload of weaponry and technology. Hey, look, a suit of armor! Nah-why bring something that could help me?" If I was going to a gun fight I think I'd put on a bullet proof vest if I had one, and I'm not that smart. Pete's a genius.

Originally posted by Oops
Isn't it a bit out of character for a genius to be a complete moron? I mean, here's how you think Spidey's prep would go: "Spiderman suit-check, webbing-check, hearty breakfast-check. Alright, I should be good, just fighting a smart guy who uses a crapload of weaponry and technology. Hey, look, a suit of armor! Nah-why bring something that could help me?" If I was going to a gun fight I think I'd put on a bullet proof vest if I had one, and I'm not that smart. Pete's a genius.

Originally posted by Badabing
Spidey has an IQ of 250+

And out brain powered Doc Ock

Spidey is more powerful and smarter. Frank better have the UN, IG, HOTU if he wants to win this...biscuits

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats a gross misrepresentation of what im saying. I showed you two scans one of him shooting him another shows him getting him with a knife, I also stated there were other examples that illustrated this point. If I actually didnt have scans I would see your point. Also another example is designer genes. Punisher was missing Spiderman by inches but was aiming to wound, however he managed to shoot Sabretooth who he was trying to kill. In that comic Sabretooth was shown to be faster than Spiderman.

Furthermore just because Spdierman can dodge other skillful gun men and barrage of bullets doesnt mean he can dodge The Punisher if there is evidence to show otherwise. Punisher has beaten Bullseye twice and stalemated Moon Knight logically Punisher shouldnt get humiliated by Dardevil but he has on numerous ocassion.

Cap, DD, Shang Chi and Iron Fist cant punch anywhere near the speed of a bullet but are capable of punching Spiderman. Even if they travel at the same speed Punisher can predict where his opponent is going to be which is what has enabled him to shoot opponents faster than Spiderman (mutant speedster Burnout). Many a time in comics slower opponents get faster one by predicting where they will be Punisher is also not the only expert gun man that can shoot bullet dodgers (Bushwacker)

Punisher has a 60 percent chance of shooting Spiderman based on the fact that hes shown on numerous ocassion of having the capability of shooting Spiderman. The reason why the percentage isnt highier is because Spiderman has managed to dodge Punishers bullets on many ocassion but I dont think its for the majority. I think thats perfectly reasonable.

Its highly unlikley that Spiderman will get the majority over Punisher after getting punked by Punisher on numerous ocassions and not being able to outsmart him. Now punisher has Pym partcles, Titanuims Mans glove, Hawkeyes arrows, Taskmasters Shield, a gun that that creates ice with a mass as dense as a small sun, Sonic emitters and the Satans Claw that can do this...

You've chosen to show only the one or two times Castle has shot Spider-Man, but I'm willing to bet that if you provide me with all their fights and issue numbers, I can show you that your odds are completely off. I'll say it again, you're placing the Punisher's high-end feats as the norm, while downplaying Spider-Man's feats.

You're also making it sound as if Castle can instantly switch weaponry or fire all of them simultaneously. He's still got to carry a duffel bag with him--which will undeniably weigh him down--grab a gun, aim and fire. That leaves Spider-Man with a great window of opportunity to cave the Punisher's face in with a solid haymaker.

A 60% chance of Castle shooting Spider-Man (even with his latest weaponry) is 50% at best.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
60 percent? Bullshit. Of all their encounters, Castle has definitely not shot Spider-Man 60% of the time. In his first appearance, he failed to snipe down an unsuspecting Spider-Man and only managed to shoot him once at close range. The next fight they had in that comic, Castle couldn't manage to shoot him after getting the drop on him again.

Theres also another example of him shooting Spiderman.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

You've chosen to show only the one or two times Castle has shot Spider-Man, but I'm willing to bet that if you provide me with all their fights and issue numbers, I can show you that your odds are completely off. I'll say it again, you're placing the Punisher's high-end feats as the norm, while downplaying Spider-Man's feats.

Could you please stop making it personal and assuming that ive only chosen two because im somehow trying to twist shit around. I dont have time to post all the scans im often working at the same time.

Feel free to disagree please dont try to intepret my reasons for doing things, pretty please with sugar on top.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

You're also making it sound as if Castle can instantly switch weaponry or fire all of them simultaneously. He's still got to carry a duffel bag with him--which will undeniably weigh him down--grab a gun, aim and fire. That leaves Spider-Man with a great window of opportunity to cave the Punisher's face in with a solid haymaker.

A 60% chance of Castle shooting Spider-Man (even with his latest weaponry) is 50% at best.

You havent disproven that its not 60 percent. You've only given two examples of him missing Spiderman and ive added one more, the amount is still in Punsihers favour.

Also stated that there were lots of times hes missed so that doesnt prove anything. Im not trying to make it sound like he can automatically switch on anything. When 200lbs is nothing to you carrying a duffel bag isnt going to way you down. How many times have you seen him carry a duffel bag anyway? He also has the Satans Claw and Titanuims mans glove which can be actvivated automatically come to think about it, and he doesnt have to reach to use it he just wears it on his hand.

The point is that hes going to have a hard enough time beating Punisher with standard equipment with the equipment he has now he gets the majority. Spiderman is going to packing standard equipment but hes going to beat Punisher with all the new equipment he has?

Originally posted by Oops
Isn't it a bit out of character for a genius to be a complete moron? I mean, here's how you think Spidey's prep would go: "Spiderman suit-check, webbing-check, hearty breakfast-check. Alright, I should be good, just fighting a smart guy who uses a crapload of weaponry and technology. Hey, look, a suit of armor! Nah-why bring something that could help me?" If I was going to a gun fight I think I'd put on a bullet proof vest if I had one, and I'm not that smart. Pete's a genius.

Yup because thats what he usually does.

USM is awesome but ULT Punisher is not a Vietnam War veteran, but an ex-NYPD police officer.. still outcome of SM vs heavy fire/gun blazing guy even in clsoe quarters = SM dominates and just is too fast .
So relevance of this fight , SM not being written like a douche fares quite well in whatever sitaution and it is very cool display of his powers while not at his prime:

Also in the event ppl think SM will be killed via snipering, SM being being snipered kinda conatradicts years of feats that say otherwise

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Could you please stop making it personal and assuming that ive only chosen two because im somehow trying to twist shit around. I dont have time to post all the scans im often working at the same time.

Feel free to disagree please dont try to intepret my reasons for doing things, pretty please with sugar on top.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Theres also another example of him shooting Spiderman. You havent disproven that its not 60 percent. You've only given two examples of him missing Spiderman and ive added one more, the amount is still in Punsihers favour. Also stated that there were lots of times hes missed so that doesnt prove anything.

In that one issue, the Punisher shot Spider-Man once out of 5 attempts. That's only 20%.

Yeah, they've fought many more times, with a prepared Castle getting the better of an unprepared non-bloodlusted Spider-Man. If I had a list of their fights, I'd be glad to post scans along with my analysis.
[QUOTE=12114149]Originally posted by Phantom Zone
[B]Im not trying to make it sound like he can automatically switch on anything. When 200lbs is nothing to you carrying a duffel bag isnt going to way you down. How many times have you seen him carry a duffel bag anyway? He also has the Satans Claw and Titanuims mans glove which can be actvivated automatically come to think about it, and he doesnt have to reach to use it he just wears it on his hand.

In that same scan you posted above, he was carrying a bag of weapons which also contained the Satan's Claw. A prepped Castle could go into a fight with two guns, the Satan's Claw, Titanium's Man's glove, and Ant-Man's helmet, but the rest he'd have to store somehow. He can try to carry them on him, but they'd weigh him down some more.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The point is that hes going to have a hard enough time beating Punisher with standard equipment with the equipment he has now he gets the majority. Spiderman is going to packing standard equipment but hes going to beat Punisher with all the new equipment he has?

Spider-Man and the Punisher both have a 50/50 chance of killing the other.

Spiderman the majority if he does not fight stupid. the clear majority, the land scape favors spiderman greatly.

This was somehow mashed together in my last post:

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You havent disproven that its not 60 percent. You've only given two examples of him missing Spiderman and ive added one more, the amount is still in Punsihers favour. Also stated that there were lots of times hes missed so that doesnt prove anything.

In that one issue, the Punisher shot Spider-Man once out of 5 attempts. That's only 20%.

Yeah, they've fought many more times, with a prepared Castle getting the better of an unprepared non-bloodlusted Spider-Man. If I had a list of their fights, I'd be glad to post scans along with my analysis.

LMAO! crylaugh

I just clicked on the link in you're sig for the first timel, Eternal Idol and just read the title. I lol'd really hard. Lmao, that was hilarious. What was Alf thinking?

I just clicked it as well and even comment in the thread, I can't believe he made a thread like that.

I can.

Originally posted by Mindset
I can.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Zone, nothing I say here is to be taken personally. It might seem that way to you because I disagree almost every time, especially concerning the Punisher vs. metahumans threads. Perhaps I've misinterpreted your argument at times, and maybe other times I've completely understood your argument and believed you'd been more biased than objective.

Thats not true but nevermind.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

200lbs will slow Castle down, regardless if it would be heavy for him or not. It's a law of nature.

In that same scan you posted above, he was carrying a bag of weapons which also contained the Satan's Claw. A prepped Castle could go into a fight with two guns, the Satan's Claw, Titanium's Man's glove, and Ant-Man's helmet, but the rest he'd have to store somehow. He can try to carry them on him, but they'd weigh him down some more.

Hes lifted a 200lb man with one hand easily over the edge of a building while having a conversation with Captain america. Weve only seen Punisher carry a duffel bag once, that doesnt count.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

The normal quasi-pacifist friendly neighborhood Spider-Man we're so used to seeing occasionally has trouble beating Castle when the latter has an unfair preemptive strategic advantage. A blood-lusted Spider-Man who's also had time to prepare (because Spider-Man has used prep before) cancels out any advantage the Punisher's new weaponry (all of which are not unlike anything Spider-Man's dealt with before).

Spider-Man and the Punisher both have a 50/50 chance of killing the other.

That doesnt change anything all a prepped Spdierman would so is hit with full force punches. In the scenerios shown Spiderman would have still lost. Spiderman doesnt have prep in this thread because the vast majority of the times he doesnt use it and has never used it against Punisher.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
This was somehow mashed together in my last post:

In that one issue, the Punisher shot Spider-Man once out of 5 attempts. That's only 20%.

Yeah, they've fought many more times, with a prepared Castle getting the better of an unprepared non-bloodlusted Spider-Man. If I had a list of their fights, I'd be glad to post scans along with my analysis.

Im not talking about every time Punisher has pointed a gun at Spiderman im talking about scenerios.