Mighella vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi (TPM)

Originally posted by Genesis

Don't believe me? Skip to 3:30 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPLXwrj7i7Q

For a considerable time in that fight, when Kenobi and Maul duel alone, Kenobi seemingly has the upper hand. He goes as far as splitting Maul's lightsaber and putting him to the ground. He was pushing him back. Maul had to intervene with the force in order to subdue Kenobi. We never see any glaring difference between the two and their lightsaber skills.

Interesting how you say "He goes as far as splitting Maul's lightsaber and putting him to the ground" as if that's some sign of Maul being inferior, yet you completely ignore how Maul put Kenobi on the ground TWICE while simultaneously fighting Qui-Gonn (plus the third kick, but Kenobi landed on his feet that time).

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Interesting how you say "He goes as far as splitting Maul's lightsaber and putting him to the ground" as if that's some sign of Maul being inferior, yet you completely ignore how Maul put Kenobi on the ground TWICE while simultaneously fighting Qui-Gonn (plus the third kick, but Kenobi landed on his feet that time).

Obiwan did better by himself and once he became enraged and he WAS pushing Maul back.

since when does using the force, let alone force push make it an illegitamate victory?

Originally posted by bane's heart
since when does using the force, let alone force push make it an illegitamate victory?

I'm not saying it's illegitimate, but if you're going to call Obiwan's victory just that, then using the same standards, I would call Maul's force push a last resort when he was getting pushed back.

Obi-Wan Kenobi did defeat Darth Maul in a combat situation. This is an obvious fact. However, this defeat was due in large because of Maul's arrogance (as stated above) and Obi-Wan Kenobi's cunning (also as stated above). So... to a certain extent, both sides of that particular debate can be seen as being correct. However, If Maul and Kenobi were to do it all again, then I believe Darth Maul would likely take the next 8 or 9 battles (out of a 10 set), as I doubt he'd make the same or even a similar mistake again, especially against the same opponent that just sliced him in half.

Originally posted by Darth Sevius
Obi-Wan Kenobi did defeat Darth Maul in a combat situation. This is an obvious fact. However, this defeat was due in large because of Maul's arrogance (as stated above) and Obi-Wan Kenobi's cunning (also as stated above). So... to a certain extent, both sides of that particular debate can be seen as being correct. However, If Maul and Kenobi were to do it all again, then I believe Darth Maul would likely take the next 8 or 9 battles (out of a 10 set), as I doubt he'd make the same or even a similar mistake again, especially against the same opponent that just sliced him in half.

I have no doubt that at that point in their careers, Maul was more powerful than Obiwan(unless he became enraged). However, this is the battle in question and it was an even contest for the most part. At the very least, there is NO evidence that Obiwan is "a lot weaker than Maul", as Faunus has asserted.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I have no doubt that at that point in their careers, Maul was more powerful than Obiwan(unless he became enraged). However, this is the battle in question and it was an even contest for the most part. At the very least, there is NO evidence that Obiwan is "a lot weaker than Maul", as Faunus has asserted.

I agree that he wasn't "a lot weaker than Darth Maul". But he was the lesser of the two as far as strict lightsaber to lightsaber combat goes. I think that Obi-Wan's cunning serves to level the playing field some, but not enough to overcome Maul on anything resembling a regular or semi-regular basis (at this point in his training).

Yea, he was the lesser of the two for sure, unless he used his rage, in which case it was a lot closer.

No doubt. As a matter of fact, that's one of my favorite lightsaber dueling sequences.

Relative to a strict one vs. one match as we'd have it here, yes. He had Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master and legendary swordsman, fighting alongside him - or for him - at almost every step of the way. After being outmatched the entire duel even with Jinn's assistance he takes on Maul alone and gets thrown into a pit.

Where is Qui Gon hailed as a legendary swordsman? I thought he was hailed as a legendary Jedi. This doesn't mean he's the greatest swordsman.

It isn't "unfair," it just isn't really relevant to the Versus forum. Anakin crippled Mace Windu, Han Solo killed the Emperor. Surely you won't argue those as legitimate victories here, because the "victor" in those situations didn't actually defeat anyone in personal combat.

No, but you must remember that Maul hasn't defeated Kenobi either. There's no evidence to suggest that, if that fight had continued, Maul would've emerged victorious. Maul is the one who ended it with the push, remember?

One that we don't take into account here. No CIS.

"CIS?"

Nonsense. I suggest you skip to 4:07 in the video posted and watch very closely as Maul throws Obi-Wan over the side of a pit, where the Padawan proceeds to hang on for dear life, completely at Maul's mercy.

You're not paying attention to the video very closely. Maul is effectively being forced into a defensive stance against Kenobi. As soon as he begins failing at Lightsaber combat, he holds out his hand and force pushes Kenobi as an alternative.

So is Obi-Wan.

Not quite.

Prove it.

Mighella couldn't contend with a man Kenobi put down. She's not in the same class that these Jedi/Sith are in. She's a tier downwards, methinks.

This is when he is tapping into his rage, enhancing his abilities with the dark side. The NEC makes it clear, through Obi-Wan's own testimonial, that Maul took advantage of this by feeding off of his hatred.

Okay. I don't understand how this changes anything. It's awfully irrelevant. Kenobi still surfaced the skill to push Maul back and outclass him.

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon together couldn't beat Maul. Qui-Gon alone couldn't beat him, Obi-Wan alone - even with the added advantage of his rage - couldn't beat him.

That's enough for me.

In Kenobi's defense, he may work better alone. Some swordsman maybe prefer to duel one on one.

when qui gon sparred with mace windu, they couldn't best each other so i would say he is pretty good. And as stated before, obiwan had to use his rage. If he didn't he would probably be dead

Originally posted by Genesis
Where is Qui Gon hailed as a legendary swordsman? I thought he was hailed as a legendary Jedi. This doesn't mean he's the greatest swordsman.

In the TPM novel there's a line saying Qui-Gonn was one of the best swordsman in the Order, or something along those lines. I can't recall the exact words, but it did refer specifically to his swordsmanship.

Originally posted by Genesis
No, but you must remember that Maul hasn't defeated Kenobi either. There's no evidence to suggest that, if that fight had continued, Maul would've emerged victorious. Maul is the one who ended it with the push, remember?

Maul defeated Qui-Gonn who at that point was a better swordsman than Kenobi (yes I know, ABC isn't conclusive proof), he had the upper hand throughout most of the fight. He landed three blows on Kenobi, while Kenobi only got in one. Heck, a case could even be made that he was starting to tire, since he had been fighting two opponents (thus having to work twice as hard).

Originally posted by Genesis
"CIS?"

It stands for Character Induced Stupidity. Basically it's when a character in a "Vs" has certain personality traits that their opponent can exploit. For example, a character gloating when their foe is at their mercy rather than just finishing them off (thus allowing the foe to regain the upper hand) is CIS.

Originally posted by Genesis
You're not paying attention to the video very closely. Maul is effectively being forced into a defensive stance against Kenobi. As soon as he begins failing at Lightsaber combat, he holds out his hand and force pushes Kenobi as an alternative.

First, the fact that an opponent is defending doesn't neccessarily mean they're losing. For example, the novel notes that when Maul was seemingly retreating from Qui-Gonn and Kenobi he was in fact luring them to a site of his choice.

Second that was the only point in the entire fight that Kenobi had the upper hand. Trying to say he's a better fighter, because at ONE POINT, he had the upper hand seems pretty suspect to me.

Plus, that was only due to his determination to avenge his teacher. Against Mighella (or any other opponent) he won't have the same motivation.

It's like when Anakin fought Dooku (RotS). Anakin unleashed his full fury against Dooku because he had a personal grudge against him. That isn't a state he could achieve against just anyone.

Originally posted by Genesis
Mighella couldn't contend with a man Kenobi put down. She's not in the same class that these Jedi/Sith are in. She's a tier downwards, methinks.

Again, Kenobi didn't "put Maul down" purely by being a better swordsman. In a different time and place, Maul would most likely have prevailed.

And she did contend with Maul until her sword broke.

Good post. I believe I've been defeated here.

Nice work.

Originally posted by Genesis
Good post. I believe I've been defeated here.

Nice work.

Thanks.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Maul defeated Qui-Gonn who at that point was a better swordsman than Kenobi (yes I know, ABC isn't conclusive proof), he had the upper hand throughout most of the fight. He landed three blows on Kenobi, while Kenobi only got in one. Heck, a case could even be made that he was starting to tire, since he had been fighting two opponents (thus having to work twice as hard).

First, the fact that an opponent is defending doesn't neccessarily mean they're losing. For example, the novel notes that when Maul was seemingly retreating from Qui-Gonn and Kenobi he was in fact luring them to a site of his choice.

Second that was the only point in the entire fight that Kenobi had the upper hand. Trying to say he's a better fighter, because at ONE POINT, he had the upper hand seems pretty suspect to me.

Plus, that was only due to his determination to avenge his teacher. Against Mighella (or any other opponent) he won't have the same motivation.

One's not enough. Two for each shall suffice:

^ This is why I like you, sir.

DS, I'll get back to you sometime tomorrow. I have my entire response prepared, I am simply waiting on oneofmybitchessomeone to provide me with the quote from JvS [not tNEC]. Suffice to say, however, you are entirely wrong on everything and, unlike Genesis - the one I'd responded to and the one with the grace to concede [to me, whether he'll admit it or not; chilled monkey gets secondary credit] - you don't seem to actually be making much of a point. Rather, you're just being annoying. As such, I will be forced to do things to you.

Prepare. 😐

Originally posted by Eminence
^ This is why I like you, sir.

DS, I'll get back to you sometime tomorrow. I have my entire response prepared, I am simply waiting on oneofmybitchessomeone to provide me with the quote from JvS [not tNEC]. Suffice to say, however, you are entirely wrong on everything and, unlike Genesis - the one I'd responded to and the one with the grace to concede [to me, whether he'll admit it or not; chilled monkey gets secondary credit] - you don't seem to actually be making much of a point. Rather, you're just being annoying. As such, I will be forced to do things to you.

Prepare. 😐

1. I have JvS
2. If I'm being annoying, what does that make the fool who makes hilarious claims like "lolz Obiwan is a hell of a lot weaker than Maul!"
3. Looks like I HAVE made a point, otherwise you wouldn't troll in a weak attempt to annoy me.
4. If you want to annoy me, tell me your parents 401k is growing.

1. Good. Then give me the line.
2. 🙄
3. "Troll?" Lol, DS, we've been down this road.
4. My parents' 401k is growing. Their self hate makes them strong.

Originally posted by Eminence
1. Good. Then give me the line.
2. 🙄
3. "Troll?" Lol, DS, we've been down this road.
4. My parents' 401k is growing. Their self hate makes them strong.

1. You haven't asked for anything. What line are you looking for.
2. big surprise.
3. Right, except you seem to either be delusional or you also lacks self awareness. Either way it's hilarious.
4. Yea, that's annoying. Tell your parents their money is going to be worthless in the next 2 years.