What if the Empire invaded the FOTJ era galaxy

Originally posted by Gideon
Which is exactly how the Jedi post-Order 66 did it! The hundreds of survivors banded together, united under a battle meld, went to Coruscant and PWNED the shit out of that ugly muthafvcka! And then they slaughtered Vader, restored the Republic an --

Spoiler:
Oh wait, they didn't.

Unless the Emperor's ass is in the center of the battlefield, stoned and drunk, sitting on a lawnchair, that's not going to happen.

1. I don't think the Old Jedi Order was shown to at all have used Battle Meld or even known about it.

2. The Old Jedi Order was taken by surprise. By the time they were able to realize what was going on, most of them were dead, and those that survived were scattered. Only Yoda and Obi Wan were able to communicate and organize - with eachother, to perform a semi-successful attempt to prevent the Empire from forming.

Extreme arrogance? You do realize that, prior to Ewok intervention and Vader's betrayal, he was winning, right? Don't get me wrong, he's a cocky son of a *****, but not without reason: even if you believe that Luke is the superior Force user at this point, Palpatine's still ten times the strategist that Luke is and has access to unbelievable hardware.

In this war, the Empire would likely be winning as well due to superior numbers and arguably tactical prowess. And even if he somehow isn't arrogant, they could just use jamming devices; or some Force technique to short circuit electronic devices, something that Jedi with far less Force power than Luke Battle Melded with the rest of the council have done. And by the time Sidious became aware of the threat, he'd likely be dead.

"you believe that Luke is the superior Force user at this point" - yes, I do, since this is still just ROTJ Sidious.

HWKN
I don't think the Old Jedi Order was shown to at all have used Battle Meld or even known about it.

Jorus C'baoth, a Jedi Master during the Separatist crisis, demonstrated extreme skill with the ability; the old Jedi Order was most certainly aware of it.

HWKN
2. The Old Jedi Order was taken by surprise. By the time they were able to realize what was going on, most of them were dead, and those that survived were scattered. Only Yoda and Obi Wan were able to communicate and organize - with eachother, to perform a semi-successful attempt to prevent the Empire from forming.

You're forming your opinion out of ignorance of relevant EU source material. In Dark Lord: the Rise of Darth Vader, a group of scattered Jedi Knights gather and their leader, Roan Shryne, all but echos my sentiments verbatim. He tells his group that whoever activated the Jedi beacon (Yoda), did so with the intent to keep the Jedi away from Coruscant because they knew that they couldn't win. Yoda and Obi-Wan had one shot to eliminate the Empire's leadership and they failed, which is why Yoda never made a second attempt.

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Coruscant is a fortress and, particularly after that close call with Yoda, there's no way that the Jedi are just going to walk in there and kill him.

HWKN
In this war, the Empire would likely be winning as well due to superior numbers and arguably tactical prowess. And even if he somehow isn't arrogant, they could just use jamming devices; or some Force technique to short circuit electronic devices, something that Jedi with far less Force power than Luke Battle Melded with the rest of the council have done. And by the time Sidious became aware of the threat, he'd likely be dead.

Sounds an awful lot like you pulling things out of the dark abyss that is your ass. As mentioned before, the Emperor is heavily protected by legions of bodyguards, ranging from your average stormtrooper to Royal Guardsmen to dark Jedi. They're not going to walk in, even if they have the Force and "jamming devices."

HWKN
"you believe that Luke is the superior Force user at this point" - yes, I do, since this is still just ROTJ Sidious.

Your point? Palpatine demonstrated many of his greatest powers prior to Dark Empire.

Originally posted by Gideon
Jorus C'baoth, a Jedi Master during the Separatist crisis, demonstrated extreme skill with the ability; the old Jedi Order was most certainly aware of it.

The exact same as the Battle Meld the NJO uses? Sorry if so.

You're forming your opinion out of ignorance of relevant EU source material. In Dark Lord: the Rise of Darth Vader, a group of scattered Jedi Knights gather and their leader, Roan Shryne, all but echos my sentiments verbatim. He tells his group that whoever activated the Jedi beacon (Yoda), did so with the intent to keep the Jedi away from Coruscant because they knew that they couldn't win. Yoda and Obi-Wan had one shot to eliminate the Empire's leadership and they failed, which is why Yoda never made a second attempt.

Maybe that group of Jedi Knights didn't know Battle Meld.

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Coruscant is a fortress and, particularly after that close call with Yoda, there's no way that the Jedi are just going to walk in there and kill him.

How is Sidious going to stop them? And besides, sooner or later Sidious is going to leave Coruscant - like he did in ROTJ despite that close call with Yoda.

Sounds an awful lot like you pulling things out of the dark abyss that is your ass. As mentioned before, the Emperor is heavily protected by legions of bodyguards, ranging from your average stormtrooper to Royal Guardsmen to dark Jedi. They're not going to walk in, even if they have the Force and "jamming devices."

Luke has been shown to be able to cast illusions capable of fooling others into believing that he's someone else and fooling Darth Caedus into seeing a fleet. He replicates the same techniques here. Heck, he could pretend to be Darth Vader and walk in.

Didn't this Imperial who wanted to sieze power for himself manage to get all the way to Sidious using just 50 troops?

Your point? Palpatine demonstrated many of his greatest powers prior to Dark Empire.

But not to the level of Luke's feats. Either way, this is Luke using Battle Meld with the NJO Council. Sidious would get stomped in a fight.

HWKN
The exact same as the Battle Meld the NJO uses? Sorry if so.

...

Yes, the exact same battle meld. You come off so desperate to make a point here that it clouds your judgment; you demonstrate the same sort of behavior now that you did when you first came here.

HWKN
Maybe that group of Jedi Knights didn't know Battle Meld.

You're not reading: the beacon that Obi-Wan and Yoda fought so desperately to activate was warning the Jedi to stay away and go into hiding. Does that compute? Even if the Jedi reorganized, they simply didn't have a chance to defeat the Emperor or the massed ranks of the Empire, which is why they hid.

HWKN
How is Sidious going to stop them?

He's the most powerful political and military authority in the galaxy by far, with unbelievable resources at his disposal. How are they going to stop him?

HWKN
And besides, sooner or later Sidious is going to leave Coruscant - like he did in ROTJ despite that close call with Yoda.

😐

Spoiler:
Sidious left Coruscant to lead the Rebellion into a trap that very nearly succeeded; he didn't leave for the hell of it.

HWKN
Luke has been shown to be able to cast illusions capable of fooling others into believing that he's someone else and fooling Darth Caedus into seeing a fleet. He replicates the same techniques here. Heck, he could pretend to be Darth Vader and walk in.

You'll have to prove that he can do it here.

HWKN
But not to the level of Luke's feats. Either way, this is Luke using Battle Meld with the NJO Council. Sidious would get stomped in a fight.

...

😐

This isn't a fight, you dolt! Did you not just say it was a war? Palpatine's greatest powers involve manipulation on a planetary and galactic scale. This is a man who diminished the collective senses of the Jedi Order (ten thousand Jedi) for thirteen years (Revenge of the Sith) and conducted rituals that directly affected those Jedi -- their senses, their emotions, their visions, etc (Sithisis). He commands the greatest military apparatus in galactic history, a great number of dark side adepts, and is a strategist and manipulator well in excess of Luke's capabilities.

And you tell me that they're simply going to walk into his throne room and kill him?

Bullshit.

Originally posted by Gideon
...

Yes, the exact same battle meld. You come off so desperate to make a point here that it clouds your judgment; you demonstrate the same sort of behavior now that you did when you first came here.

OK, sorry, I didn't know about that, but that doesn't really change the fact that the NJO can assassinate Sidious.

You're not reading: the beacon that Obi-Wan and Yoda fought so desperately to activate was warning the Jedi to stay away and go into hiding. Does that compute? Even if the Jedi reorganized, they simply didn't have a chance to defeat the Emperor or the massed ranks of the Empire, which is why they hid.

1. The FOTJ team has the NJO on their side, which IS organized and NOT scattered.
2. The surviving Jedi didn't have the numbers, organization or Force abilities to get to Sidious. The NJO does.

He's the most powerful political and military authority in the galaxy by far, with unbelievable resources at his disposal. How are they going to stop him?

Assassination.

😐

Spoiler:
Sidious left Coruscant to lead the Rebellion into a trap that very nearly succeeded; he didn't leave for the hell of it.

You'll have to prove that he can do it here.

He's done it multiple times before, why not here?

...

😐

This isn't a fight, you dolt! Did you not just say it was a war? Palpatine's greatest powers involve manipulation on a planetary and galactic scale. This is a man who diminished the collective senses of the Jedi Order (ten thousand Jedi) for thirteen years (Revenge of the Sith) and conducted rituals that directly affected those Jedi -- their senses, their emotions, their visions, etc (Sithisis). He commands the greatest military apparatus in galactic history, a great number of dark side adepts, and is a strategist and manipulator well in excess of Luke's capabilities.

And you tell me that they're simply going to walk into his throne room and kill him?

Bullshit.

None of this has anything to do with Sidious's ability to prevent the NJO Council from just assassinating him. How does this protect Sidious from the NJO Council using Battle Meld, illusions and Force cloaking to get to Sidious and then assassinating him?

For an assassination, you'd need a homicide bomber who is in favor with Sidious just to get close to the guy. Even then the Sith Lord would sense the hostility. An assassination wouldn't work. We're talking about the most powerful Sith here.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
For an assassination, you'd need a homicide bomber who is in favor with Sidious just to get close to the guy. Even then the Sith Lord would sense the hostility. An assassination wouldn't work. We're talking about the most powerful Sith here.

We're talking about a Battle Meld of the most powerful Jedi here, so asassination is very plausible.

HWKN
OK, sorry.

Jesus H. Christ, thank you. But I have to deduct points for not making this your entire post.

HWKN
1. The FOTJ team has the NJO on their side, which IS organized and NOT scattered.

We've just covered this, man. Why do you persist in being ridiculous? And you b1tch when everyone here condemns you for it.

Dark Lord makes it clear: Yoda and Kenobi activated the Temple beacon to keep the Jedi disorganized and scattered. Why? Why would they do that if a reorganized order could smite the Empire?

Spoiler:
The answer is obvious: a reorganized order couldn't.

HWKN
2. The surviving Jedi didn't have the numbers, organization or Force abilities to get to Sidious.

Agreed; this is probably the only valid point you've made in your entire career.

HWKN
The NJO does.

...

Says who? The remnants of the old Jedi Order, as Exodus pointed out, numbered at least in the hundreds, which is about the same as the new Jedi Order. So that's one point down.

Organization is what we've already addressed; their supreme leader deliberately prevented them from organizing because he knew it wouldn't make a difference. The Rise of Darth Vader and Purge make it very clear what happened to organized Jedi resistence. That's another point down.

Force abilities? LOL. The old Jedi Order inherited twenty five thousand years of Force-related knowledge, teachings, training, and disciplines. What does the new Jedi Order have? Scraps of that and a few tricks from other groups. That's point number three, sinking fast.

HWKN
ASSASSINATION

THEY WON'T ASSASSINATE HIM SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU SAY SO, JACKASS.

HWKN
You ignored the part where an Imperial who wanted to seize power for himself got all the way to Sidious himself using just 50 clone troopers.

I weep for you, man. I really, really do.

1. Palpatine's words upon Moff Kadir's arrival? "At last." He knew about it the entire time, jackass.

2. What happened to that guy and his stormtroopers?

Spoiler:
They all died.

HWKN
???

He's done it multiple times before, why not here?

Because fooling Caedus means he can fool the Emperor?

HWKN
None of this has anything to do with Sidious's ability to prevent the NJO Council from just assassinating him. How does this protect Sidious from the NJO Council using Battle Meld, illusions and Force cloaking to get to Sidious and then assassinating him?

So Palpatine's ability to diminish the senses and capabilities of groups of Force users, his high intellect, and the massive military apparatus at his disposal have nothing to do with preventing the new Jedi Order from killing him?

haermm

Okay, okay. You win, I give up, argument over.

So a Jedi would strap a bomb on their chest a blow themselves up? It'd be a waste of a fully trained Knight. Or you'd have to use the most powerful Jedi in the NJO & FoTJ era just to attempt the op. IMO, it wouldn't work.

We still have the option of Luke killing Sidious by himself through the "removed from the force, cloaked to the naked eye method."

The man was standing right behind Caedus and Caedus didn't have a clue, DESPITE being told he was there. That suggests that simply being powerful in the force will not allow you to detect someone who has removed themselves from the force.

To what are you referring? Inferno? I can't respond unless I'm certain.

TJ
We still have the option of Luke killing Sidious by himself through the "removed from the force, cloaked to the naked eye method."

Interesting, feel free to make that argument. We can discuss it.

Yes, when Luke pulled out of the force, his own TWIN (the bond between them has much made of it pretty often, as well as between Jaina and Jacen) thought he was dead. Caedus was in the middle of direct combat with him, having direct contact, and thought he was dead. It was pretty darn impressive.

At the same time, Caedus was able to sever Ben's link with the force to the point that Luke, his own father, and a much more powerful Jedi than Caedus couldn't find him.

So it establishes a precedence where even a weaker force-user can successfully hide from a stronger force-user.

I can see Sidious sensing a disturbance in the force, but not being able to figure out that it is a cloaked Jedi in his room until it is too late.

oh,and by the method, I meant the lightsaber out of nowhere thing that i've been batting back and forth.

Granted, pulling this off with Sidious would be the ultimate test of the cloaking method. It has been able to fool the top Luke faced (Caedus) but that doesn't necessarily mean it will fool Sidious. I just don't see a reason to assume Sidious would see through it when no one else could, even when they were close to Luke.

Originally posted by Gideon

Dark Lord makes it clear: Yoda and Kenobi activated the Temple beacon to keep the Jedi disorganized and scattered. Why? Why would they do that if a reorganized order could smite the Empire?

Spoiler:
The answer is obvious: a reorganized order couldn't.

I understand that it was the best for the Old Jedi Order remnants to remain scattered. That's not my point. The NJO is organized enough to launch an assault on Sidious.

Agreed; this is probably the only valid point you've made in your entire career.

What about when I said that Sidious > Ragnos? 😎

...

Says who? The remnants of the old Jedi Order, as Exodus pointed out, numbered at least in the hundreds, which is about the same as the new Jedi Order. So that's one point down.

Organization is what we've already addressed; their supreme leader deliberately prevented them from organizing because he knew it wouldn't make a difference. The Rise of Darth Vader and Purge make it very clear what happened to organized Jedi resistence. That's another point down.

As I said above, I understand that it was best for the remnants of the OJO to remain scattered...that doesn't change the fact that the NJO IS organized to do this assault.

Force abilities? LOL. The old Jedi Order inherited twenty five thousand years of Force-related knowledge, teachings, training, and disciplines. What does the new Jedi Order have? Scraps of that and a few tricks from other groups. That's point number three, sinking fast.

The remnants of the OJO had Yoda and Obi Wan in communicatation, Shaak Ti in exile and Kota wandering off. I don't see a significant number of powerhouses other than those that I listed surviving that were able to organize an assault and that knew Battle Meld.

THEY WON'T ASSASSINATE HIM SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU SAY SO, JACKASS.

Luke cloaks them. They Battle Meld, walk in, and quickly kill Sidious.

I weep for you, man. I really, really do.

1. Palpatine's words upon Moff Kadir's arrival? "At last." He knew about it the entire time, jackass.

2. What happened to that guy and his stormtroopers?

Spoiler:
They all died.

1. And this time he wouldn't know the assassinators (in this case the NJO council) about because Luke would be hiding them in the Force.

2. Right, but 12 Masters with Battle Meld, especially with Luke, Kyp and Kyle being among them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 50 stormtroopers and a Moff.

Because fooling Caedus means he can fool the Emperor?

I never said he could. He simply needs to fool Sidious's guards. Sidious himself won't see them because he'll be in his palace or whatever. By the time they walk into Sidious's line of sight Sidious is pretty much screwed.

So Palpatine's ability to diminish the senses and capabilities of groups of Force users, his high intellect, and the massive military apparatus at his disposal have nothing to do with preventing the new Jedi Order from killing him?

haermm

Okay, okay. You win, I give up, argument over.

He diminished their ability to sense HIM, and they didn't know that he was a sith lord for quite a while. This doesn't stop the NJO Council from assassinating him. For example, his "massive military apparatus" isn't going to do much if Luke renders the NJO Council invisible and walks past them.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Luke cloaks them. They Battle Meld, walk in, and quickly kill Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I believe the conspirators of the July 20th Plot summarized their plan like this.

They were using a bomb. In this case, the NJO Council is using lightsabers/the Force, and Sidious won't be able to avoid that. Not from a Battle Melded Council with Luke among them.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
They were using a bomb. In this case, the NJO Council is using lightsabers/the Force, and Sidious won't be able to avoid that. Not from a Battle Melded Council with Luke among them.

You're taking sides? You started this thread.

I'm not sure why he even bothered to respond, I told him I gave up. You're right, they walk in and kill him.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not sure why he even bothered to respond, I told him I gave up. You're right, they walk in and kill him.

I think that you realize that I'm right, but don't want to admit it, instead sarcastically saying it while insulting me to hide the fact that I actually did win. Quite frankly, you have no argument as to how Sidious survives the NJO Council using Battle Meld, cloaking themselves past the guards and then pwning Sidious.

Your arguments are:

"well Sidious wouldn't be fooled!" (he doesn't have to be; his guards need to be fooled, and by the time Sidious is in their line of sight Sidious, even if he sees past the illusions/cloaking, would be done for)

"Sidious used a ritual to cloud the Force senses of Jedi and was a master politician/strategist!" (irrelevant here)

"The remnants of the OJO were scattered and that helped save them!" (irrelevant here)

Let's face it; Sidious loses here. After he dies, the Empire collapses.

There are other methods of detection than vision of the Force you know. I doubt they'd make it halfway there with all teh crazy security Sids would have.

edit: Plus, isn't the Empire meant to be the one doing the attacking?

Precisely. I told you he'd lose; you're right, you win, I give up: they walk in and kill him.

Yoda and the rest of the Jedi were planning on doing it anyways, I hear, but Lucas had this jackass idea to pretend that it would be difficult to kill the galaxy's most powerful man.

Realistically, anyone could do it.

N
There are other methods of detection than vision of the Force you know. I doubt they'd make it halfway there with all teh crazy security Sids would have.

You're a fvcking moron. HWKN clearly stated that Luke would be capable of fooling any sort of security system the Empire could offer. Can it be any clearer for you?