Originally posted by carver9
I never said that goku could beat z because honestly, he cant BUT hyperbole is hyperbole, no matter who its coming from.
Wrong, there are different levels of reliability.
If a scientist who has knowledge about something like a bomb says it can destroy the earth, he's probably right.
If some person with no scientific background says something can destroy the earth but he has no frame of reference for being able to know that, then he's more likely to be wrong.
You should know when it was mentioned about Frieza being a universal threat, the scan was put up numerous of times in the goku vs supserman thread and I agree, it was hyperbole.
All it was said is that Frieza was the strongest in the universe (obviously false because Buu was still there, although sealed away, the Kaioshins were there [I suppose you could say their dimension was not technically within the universe, but still], etc.)
The fact remains that Tokimi has demonstrated universe/multiverse level feats, unlike anyone in DBZ, and she was the one who created Z's powers and trained him in their use, and there is an example of another being of a similar level as 2 LHW Z performing a multi-universe feat. In addition, we have the statement of scientists who studied Fuku, that she had as much energy as "a small universe", and Fuku is a weaker version of Ryo-Ohki whose strongest attack was blocked by Z with one hand
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Zinv had two. Dual takes place in the Tenchi multiverse as stated by Kajishima.
I know. I watched Dual with a friend, when the lighthawk wings were mentioned we actually high fived. It was a good show but suffered from the same flaw the Tenchi shows did. I.E focusing heavily on romance but never having it go anywhere.
Who's waking? I dont think frieza can destroy a universe but it wsa mentioned that he could numerous of time and even during the times it was mentioned I STILL consider it hyperbole.
I'm not calling you a liar (well maybe I am thinking about it), but You're the only one I've ever heard use the Frieza is a universe buster claim. I'd think if that claim had actually been made in the show DBZ fans would bring it up all the time like they do with Cell's solar system busting claim.
So, I'd like scans or a youtube clip from the anime please.
Are you kidding????? Vegeto has no chances here or in one million years.
I have all you need to know about dbz. Daizenshuus, manga, movies, etc.
1) Toryiyama never accepted GT or filler in anime canon. In the new Kazenban he never included the fillers because they contradict the story and they dont make sense. So stop ussing noncanon stuff. Other wise according to video games Broly is equal of Gogeta ssj1.
And even if you include the non canon feats they have no way to defeat Z
Z is immortal
LHWs can stop virtually anything. YOu need nighomnipotents to deal with them
They can tank universe busters attacks
When the Chousins tried to stop Z they almost destroyed universe as a SIDE EFFECT.
I am not even expert in Tenchi Muyo.
LHWs if I am not wrong one time reduced to ZERO A BlACK HOLE
Z does not win with difficult but with the greatest easy even with speed equalized
Z can sleep while he is fighting Vegeto.
Vegeto could try to use his most powerful attack and LWH-s reduce to zero any attack while Z sleeps.
If you do not know the other series do not make assumptions
Z is just to overkilling for dbz verse.
Say hello to light hawk wings.
http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad333/mike89un/Imagen7-1.png?t=1258707787
Ok instead if quabbeling over who's stronger let's meet in the middle here. Lighthawk is the strongest power....hands down. I agree that alot of the stuff happening in dbz is faster than light but....come on from earth to Saturn in a SECOND!!!! Not comparable here kay? So having said that let's talk supersaiyan. This ability is known for being the ultimate upgrade or transformation or ascension. If that's the case let's mix the two. A super saiyan jurian prince. There....everyones ****ed. A super saiyan that can use not Lighthawk wings but SUPER Lighthawk wings??!! Yeah end of discussion. Oh and to be honest Ssj4 SSSSSUUUUUUCCCKKKKSSSS donkey balls. When Goku went Ssj THAT was impressive!!! Ssj4 was ugly as hell!!!! Looked like a hybrid gay monkey ****. And the feats a Ssj did seemed more impressive than Ssj4. Ssj Vegeta could blow up the earth easy (based off of fight with 18 when she asked why his attack was weak and he retorted that if he used anymore power he'd blow up the planet. But Ssj4 Goku could barely lift a building during his fight with nova shenron???!!! Gimme a break anyway all that ranting and what I wanted to say was that Toriyama really underpowered Ssj everytime a new saga popped up. So Ssj deserves alot more credit.
Except Buuhan nearly destroyed reality itself by screaming. You had to be able to destroy matter just to kill Cell. Fat Janemba was a high end reality warper and a universe buster. SSJ3 Goku easily killed him in a matter of seconds.
Base Goku flew all the way across Namek in less than a billionth of a second. That puts him so much faster than light with a 3 mil power level it's not even funny.
Base Goku during the Buu saga was a thousand times more powerful than Supreme kai, who said he was a thousand times more powerful, i.e. faster, than Frieza. That makes Goku around 40 million times stronger and faster than he was when he fought Frieza. That puts base Buu saga Goku at around 21,039,300,000 km/sec, while light is about 297,600 km/sec, making base Buu saga Goku about 70,700 times faster than light, in the manga, while anime Goku has been shown to be even faster.
Vegetto is hundreds of thousands of times faster and stronger than Goku. Vegetto stomps with a smile on his face.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaAnime only.
Except Buuhan nearly destroyed reality itself by screaming.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaI do not believe this was stated.
Base Goku flew all the way across Namek in less than a billionth of a second. That puts him so much faster than light with a 3 mil power level it's not even funny.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaI do not believe this was stated.
Base Goku during the Buu saga was a thousand times more powerful than Supreme kai
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaAnime only.
who said he was a thousand times more powerful, i.e. faster, than Frieza.
__________
Anyway, per the OP ALL speed is equalized:
Originally posted by Peterlane
Speed equalized to make it fair for Z.
Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, per the OP ALL speed is equalized:
Even so, the whole "strength" thing.
Anime only.
Ah, you see, as I recall, the OP and the thread maker didn't specify, meaning that anime OR manga can be used. At least until he specifically used anime specials as cannon, presumably unless they were filler, to discuss the debate. Anyone with sense can easily infer that the DBZ anime is the topic of discussion here. 👆
I do not believe this was stated.
So something not being stated instantly renders it untrue? So you have to have someone to tell you that 1 + 1 = 2, right? From about one or two minutes of simple mathematics, you can draw up the conclusion I gave.
Master Roshi and Krillin traded series of blows as well as counters, strategy and movement all in one fifth of a second in Dragon Ball, both with power levels of 80 to 100 according to logic and the Daizenshuu. I was low-balling, by taking the power level of 100, and inputting it into Frieza's power level, the one he used when stomping Vegeta, not his full power of 120 million, but his 0.5% full power of 6 million. However, it's not possible to know how many punches or kicks they threw, so you have to be fair and low-ball the number, so you then are left with making Frieza's hand slower than it actually is, because Roshi and Krillin were moving and doing many things in the fifth of a second. Goku flew across half the distance of Namek, which has been calculated to be 3.5 times bigger than Earth, in less time than it took for Frieza's hand to travel to Vegeta.
So, using the fifth of a second, we can divide it by the difference in 6 million and 100 by division, giving us 60,000 which we divide a fifth by. That gives us the time it would have taken for Frieza's fist to reach Vegeta, which is low-balled to 0.000003, or one 3 millionths of a second. So, we can safely say that Goku flew across half Nameks distance in a 3 millionth of a second. So, with some simple multiplication and division, he flew 70,131.25 km in less than one 3 millionth of a second. Now, to get his simple speed in km/sec, we just multiply both sides by 300,000 to get 21,039,375,000 km/sec. Light is only 297,600 km/sec, making base Namek Goku 70,700 times faster than light.
I will admit right now that my previous calculations were done at night when I was very tired, and were not completely correct. These however, as you can see by doing the calculations yourself, are.
There's no real indicator after this in the manga of how much stronger the characters become, but there IS in the anime. Now, factoring it accordingly to both the anime statement of Supreme kai being a thousand times more powerful than Frieza, and the Daizenshuu statement that base Goku was a thousand times more powerful than Supreme kai, we simply multiply his speed by a million, giving base Buu saga Goku a speed of 21,039,375,000,000,000, or 21 quadrillion, 39 trillion, 375 billion km/second, or 70,700,000,000 times faster than light.
Again, though, as you pointed out, speed is equalized. So, we have to go by sheer destructive capacity.
To defeat Cell, you needed to destroy his matter, just like with buu, albeit Buu could regenerate instantly and was much stronger than Cell. This instantly proves that Z-fighters at SSJ2 level were already FAR above matter destroying capacity, as Gohan fought a prolonged battle AND destroyed Cell's matter. It can easily be assumed that even Frieza was on the level of matter destruction, if he was only trying to destroy the matter.
However, even without that, DBZ characters at the Buu level and plus were casual reality and universe busters. Janemba was weaker than SSJ3 Goku originally, but was still a universe buster. Super Buutenks was much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and leagues above a reality buster. Vegetto in base form outclassed and even STRONGER version of Buu, who was capable of destroying "all of creation", i.e. the multiverse, by screaming. The phucking galaxy busting showed by Broly was a higher feat than anything Z's come even CLOSE to doing.
Vegetto lets Trunks and Goten shit on Z, as it's not worth his time. 👆
And btw, Tenchi really does have universe busting. The three goddesses who created the universe, and numerous others, have to be careful with their power in the 3-dimensional universe or they could rupture and destroy it. When the conflict with Z happened, a galaxy was destroyed, though later restored.
Tenchi Muyo, without a doubt, goes bigger and stronger than DBZ, even when you start bringing bills into it.
