Z vs Vegeto

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Ah, you see, as I recall, the OP and the thread maker didn't specify, meaning that anime OR manga can be used.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
So something not being stated instantly renders it untrue?

The rest of your wall-o-text was ignored primarily because it was a tremendous waste of time(no offense, but it was.) Your 'speed calcs' are irrelevant, as we were given neither the exact distance Goku traveled on Namek OR the amount of time it took him to travel that distance in--and both of which are required to come up with an accurate speed calculation.

Where Supreme Kai is concerned: what the anime said about his PL in relation to Frieza's is also irrelevant, as the manga said no such thing. ie. that statement from the anime is non-canon filler as well. Simple.

Originally posted by Galan007
If it didn't happen in the manga, it is non-canon filler. Simple.

For the most part. 👆

The rest of your wall-o-text was ignored primarily because it was a tremendous waste of time(no offense, but it was.) Your 'speed calcs' are irrelevant, as we were given neither the exact distance Goku traveled on Namek OR the amount of time it took him to travel that distance in--and both of which are required to come up with an accurate speed calculation.

Where Supreme Kai is concerned: what the anime said about his PL in relation to Frieza's is also irrelevant, as the manga said no such thing. ie. that statement from the anime is non-canon filler as well. Simple.

For the most part... Exactly. There were things that were added to the anime to give more understanding, and then there were simple fillers not made by Akira Toriyama. The Buuhan/multiverse thing was added by AT, not Toei. An example of filler is when Krillin hurt SSJ Goku with a rock. 👆

"Goku flew across half the distance of Namek, which has been calculated to be 3.5 times bigger than Earth, in less time than it took for Frieza's hand to travel to Vegeta."

Just FYI, Earth's circumference is about 40,075 km. Namek is 3.5 times larger, so that gives it a circumference of 140,262.5 km, which Goku flew half of, making it a total distance of 70,131.25 km, as I said.

"So, with some simple multiplication and division, he flew 70,131.25 km in less than one 3 millionth of a second. Now, to get his simple speed in km/sec, we just multiply both sides by 300,000 to get 21,039,375,000 km/sec. Light is only 297,600 km/sec, making base Namek Goku 70,700 times faster than light."

If "21,039,375,000 km/sec" isn't exact distance and time, then you're just ignorant.

The reason you didn't read my post is because you had no counter to anything I was saying. You proved your own incompetence by withdrawing entirely from the argument.

You obviously don't know what filler is. Filler is something that didn't happen in the manga that involves PIS to give the animators time for the manga to catch up to the series, OR to simply add something else to the series. Changing statements from the manga to the creators image is NOT filler, it is altering the series according to the creators, Akira Toriyama's, vision. He WANTED Supreme Kai to say that he was a thousand times stronger than Frieza, and the Daizenshuu even points out this statement in Supreme Kai's description, which validates its accuracy. 👆

Simple.

Lol, if you're going to give me a 'calc', it had better be reliable. Yours, however, are absolutely not, given that you are GUESSING the distance Goku traveled on Namek, and GUESSING how fast he traveled that distance in. Guesstimations=/=reliable facts, no matter how badly you want them to be. Simple.

Secondly, non-canon filler can be blanketed as anything that was shown OR stated in the anime that cannot be supported by the manga. Simple. Trying to use non-canon scenes to try and 'prove' your ridiculous 'points' shows me exactly how little you actually have(ie. nothing), and also makes me realize that I am doing nothing but wasting my time on you. Simple.

Anyway, I wash my hands of this idiocy. You may have the last word. 👆

Well, we don't need much when it comes to Goku speed. Goku was on the other side of the planet and he was able to make it to Gohan and the crew almost instantly.

http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/carver9/media/13503-speed_feat_super.jpg.html?sort=9&o=0

Insane speed ft since Namek was twice the size of Earth.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, if you're going to give me a 'calc', it had better be reliable. Yours, however, are absolutely not, given that you are GUESSING the distance Goku traveled on Namek, and GUESSING how fast he traveled that distance in. Guesstimations=/=reliable facts, no matter how badly you want them to be. Simple.

Secondly, non-canon filler can be blanketed as anything that was shown OR stated in the anime that cannot be supported by the manga. Simple. Trying to use non-canon scenes to try and 'prove' your ridiculous 'points' shows me exactly how little you actually have(ie. nothing), and also makes me realize that I am doing nothing but wasting my time on you. Simple.

Anyway, I wash my hands of this idiocy. You may have the last word. 👆

I accept your concession.

My calcs however are reliable. I didn't GUESS how much distance he traveled, or GUESS how fast he traveled it. I calculated it, and you obviously have nothing to say against it. Simple. I calculated how fast Frieza's punch was, which gave me a minimum calc of how much time it took Goku to get there, because he did it faster than Frieza punched. 👆

I don't understand how you're not getting this. I guess I'll just chock it up as you being an ignorant fangirl in denial.

Namek is 3.5 times larger than Earth. That can be proven by calculations.

I gave the specific speed and distance, you're just angry that Goku would so easily shit on Z.

The only idiot here is you, the one who's only counter-argument is basically saying that you're too stupid to understand math.

One last thing, the manga is less cannon than the Daizenshuu written by Akira Toriyama, that came out afterwords to explain the manga. Simple. Since the multiverse thing from the anime IS supported by the Daizenshuu, it's AT LEAST as cannon as the anime, just different versions of cannon. There's anime, and manga cannon. The destruction thing though is still supported partially by the manga, because a lot of translations have Supreme Kai saying Kid Buu destroyed entire galaxies in an instant. 👆

The speed thing is cannon in both versions. I don't care about the last word, because you've obviously got no counters here. 👆

Umm...exactly where are your numbers coming from when you do these calculations?

Also if this thread is about Vegito how the heck did Goku make it in here. On top of that considering that the Daizenshuu..whatever the hell it is doesn't bother mentioning power levels or stats from anything past the Frieza saga IIRC, that's also a moot point. And if Akira Toriyama wrote it, then its canon unless the guy specifically says so. Meaning unless you have an interview to reference to where Toriyama specifically states something, you can't just say the manga is less canon.

Along with this wasn't speed equalized here? Meaning that Z still has a high shot of winning anyway.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Umm...exactly where are your numbers coming from when you do these calculations?

Also if this thread is about Vegito how the heck did Goku make it in here. On top of that considering that the Daizenshuu..whatever the hell it is doesn't bother mentioning power levels or stats from anything past the Frieza saga IIRC, that's also a moot point. And if Akira Toriyama wrote it, then its canon unless the guy specifically says so. Meaning unless you have an interview to reference to where Toriyama specifically states something, you can't just say the manga is less canon.

Along with this wasn't speed equalized here? Meaning that Z still has a high shot of winning anyway.

^ See first post.

Vegetto has no strength or speed feats other than fighting and easily beating Super Buu with Gohan absorbed. I was calcing Goku to show that even he, someone who is incomparable to someone who was even weaker than Vegetto, would shit on Z.

How's it a moot point? Saying someone is lit a thousand times more powerful basically IS giving a power level, when the weaker person already has their PL calced.

For the last time, since you retards obviously don't get it, manga cannon=/=anime cannon. 👆

The Daizenshuu explains things from both cannons.

Mmhmm, speed is equalized, but refer(again) to my first post. Vegetto is multiverse level+ in the anime, and reality level+ in the manga AND anime. Vegetto still rapes him, easily at that.

You mean those number that came from power-scaling and speculation? Yeah that's not reliable at all.

Doesn't matter. This is Vegeto we're talking about meaning that Goku himself shouldn't have any bearing in the matter. Also you can't just make feats for Vegeto up based of his fusion parts just because he's lacking feats.

It is if the Daizenwhogivesashit doesn't go beyond the Namekian/Frieza saga, and Vegeto is indeed beyond the Namekian saga. Would like to point out you're the only one actively using the anime here.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
.
manga cannon=/=anime cannon. 👆

.

Vegetto is multiverse level+ in the anime, and reality level+ in the manga AND anime. Vegetto still rapes him, easily at that.

One of these things is not like the other, one of these things does not belong.

But seriously dude where the heck did you get reality-warping/multiverse threat from considering there aren't mentions of multiple universes at all in DBZ IIRC.

Daizenshuu is about as reliable as the Nardo databooks

Scans and feats take precendence over supplementary material, always

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
You mean those number that came from power-scaling and speculation? Yeah that's not reliable at all.

Doesn't matter. This is Vegeto we're talking about meaning that Goku himself shouldn't have any bearing in the matter. Also you can't just make feats for Vegeto up based of his fusion parts just because he's lacking feats.

It is if the Daizenwhogivesashit doesn't go beyond the Namekian/Frieza saga, and Vegeto is indeed beyond the Namekian saga. Would like to point out you're the only one actively using the anime here.

One of these things is not like the other, one of these things does not belong.

But seriously dude where the heck did you get reality-warping/multiverse threat from considering there aren't mentions of multiple universes at all in DBZ IIRC.

No, I meant those calculations that came from simple cannon numbers, facts, and descriptions from cannon sources.

If you're suggesting that Vegetto could possibly be weaker than Goku, just because they've never outright fought, then you're a million times dumber than I thought. Vegetto can do anything Goku can, but to a greater extent. The only things that he can't do, are Goku specific or Vegeta specific abilities. These include SSJ3, spirit bomb and IT. Other abilities that have to do with simple ki control like Kamehameha, Final Flash, or SSJ1-2(because Vegeta doesn't have SSJ3), Vegetto can do a thousand times better, faster and stronger than Goku can. Vegetto is featless outside of beating Buuhan, because he only existed for like three chapters or five episodes, so any threads with him and other series char's have to use power scaling.

If Goku can easily rape Z without SSJ3, spirit bomb or IT, then Vegetto can with a wave of his hand. It's that simple. Power scaling is saying that a character can perform strength based feats on a higher scale than a weaker character. It's not suggesting that the Quickening applies to every fictional character, and you instantly get the special abilities of every character you're stronger than. It's saying that Goku is a billion times stronger than Guldo, but simply can't stop time altogether(unless you count IT) because it's a GULDO specific ability. However, Goku can easily do anything with ki that Guldo does, in the range of using different ki blasts or attacks. If Guldo can destroy a mountain with a punch, Goku can easily, or anyone else more powerful than Guldo.

It's not a difficult concept to understand. I don't get why you're having such a tough time comprehending this.

The Daizenshuu DOES go beyond the Namek saga. It explains even to the Buu saga. It just stops using power levels after Namek SSJ1 Goku.

What you're suggesting is LITERALLY the EXACT same thing assaying that, because it's never been stated that he couldn't, the Hulk would beat The one above all, simply because he has no feats. That's ****ing ridiculous. Just like saying that Vegetto isn't stronger than Goku.

BOTG's, "We are only the 7th strongest universe. There are infinite universe, but only 11 with gods in total." 👆

Supreme Kai is a god that knows just as much as Bills. Supreme Kai saying that all of creation would be destroyed is the same as if Bills said it. 👆

Would like to point out that the thread maker also used the anime. 👆

That you decided to inflate based off of how powerful Goku might have been at the time. I would like a scan please or at least signs of how that would possibly relate to this battle. Oh wait! since speed is equalized those feats don't really amount to much. Would like to mention that combat speed =/= travel speed.

That wall of text hurt my eyes and even if the Daizenwhatever does go beyond that point, the DBZ manga canon along with Akira Toriyama's word still takes precedence. Giving Vegeto implicit feats based off of what Goku could do without actually seeing him do it is power-scaling.

Also since you're so keen on mentioning the fact that Vegeto is a multiversal threat reality warper, I want specific scans showing that he's capable of such. You mentioned it so burden of proof is on you. No assumptions, either you have scans or just drop the argument.

I wasn't including the Battle of God movie in my statement: I honestly forgot about it. But even if you were to take that into account, where has it been shown that DBZ characters can affect multiple universes?

In regards to Z, with speed equalized exactly what is Vegito supposed to do against the Light Hawk Wings?

Why are your posts so long? Calm it down a bit.

That time-frame from the punch is still complete bs.

Originally posted by carver9
Why are your posts so long? Calm it down a bit.

...Oldest and/or most moronic trick in the book. 👆

Crazy thing is, I don't take the time to read his posts. I'm not on here to read bibles.

Vegetto is no longer just a strong fighter... he is a cosmic entity of universal power. Vegetto>Buuhan.... Buuhan bringing down the walls of reality and destroying almost destroying all dimensions... stopped by vegetto.

Vegetto>Super Gogeta> Janemba... Janemba's existence brought down the walls between the life and afterlife.

Both Jenemba and Buuhan had reality warping/destroying powers. Vegetto (or his inferior version) stopped them. Showing him resistant to the effects of matter manipulation and reality warping.

Don't know if this changes the outcome. But that's my two cents.

Both Jenemba and Buuhan had reality warping/destroying powers.

I wouldn't quite say that in Buuhan's case. I mean, sorta yea, but they're pretty minor? Buuhan is capable of just making power more than the local space-time can handle... in other words, it's dependent on the toughness and properties of local space.

Originally posted by Q99
I wouldn't quite say that in Buuhan's case. I mean, sorta yea, but they're pretty minor? Buuhan is capable of just making power more than the local space-time can handle... in other words, it's dependent on the toughness and properties of local space.

Ok you make a valid point. Buuhan could release power strong enough to threaten the universe. So he isn't a reality warper. But he can manipulate matter as seen with Candy Beam and Majin Buu reconstructing Babidi. But he can't turn vegetto to candy, too powerful.

Originally posted by Galan007
He thinks that if he types more words than you, he 'wins'.

...Oldest and/or most moronic trick in the book. 👆

It is best to just ignore Gogeta.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Vegeta could actually see where Freeza and him would be fighting from the space ship Goku traveled from.

It is best to just ignore Gogeta.

Just like I said last time you gave that argument, the scan was dilated for exaggeration. Unless Vegeta is larger than mountains in his normal form. 👆