Z vs Vegeto

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
That you decided to inflate based off of how powerful Goku might have been at the time. I would like a scan please or at least signs of how that would possibly relate to this battle. Oh wait! since speed is equalized those feats don't really amount to much. Would like to mention that combat speed =/= travel speed.

That wall of text hurt my eyes and even if the Daizenwhatever does go beyond that point, the DBZ manga canon along with Akira Toriyama's word still takes precedence. Giving Vegeto implicit feats based off of what Goku could do without actually seeing him do it is power-scaling.

Also since you're so keen on mentioning the fact that Vegeto is a multiversal threat reality warper, I want specific scans showing that he's capable of such. You mentioned it so burden of proof is on you. No assumptions, either you have scans or just drop the argument.

I wasn't including the Battle of God movie in my statement: I honestly forgot about it. But even if you were to take that into account, where has it been shown that DBZ characters can affect multiple universes?

In regards to Z, with speed equalized exactly what is Vegito supposed to do against the Light Hawk Wings?

"Mmhmm, speed is equalized, but refer(again) to my first post." 👆

Yeah, combat speed is much greater than battle speed. Again, this has nothing to do with the fight since speed is equalized. 👆

The Daizenshuu IS Toriyama's word. It was made to explain the manga, therefor takes more precedence canonically. Once more though, Manga cannon=/=Anime cannon 👆

Yes, that's what power-scaling is. Since this debate is about Vegetto though, a character who has no feats other than stomping Buuhan, it's necessary to give any kind of accuracy to the debate. Otherwise we might as well claim that Naruto could stomp Vegetto because Vegetto has a lack of feats. Vegetto>>>>>Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Z>>Naruto. 👆

Gotenks warped reality with a scream. Vegetto can scream also. If you need the anime statement though for proof, it's episode "Rip in the universe", or episode 255, around 18 minutes in.

In that episode, Dende also says that "It could rip through one universe to the other until it causes all of creation to collapse!"

In regards to the thread, what exactly is Z supposed to do to Vegetto? He has shown capable of resisting or easily overpowering reality warping, matter manipulating, and reality busting power and abilities. Z's lighthawk wings would have as little effect of Vegetto as they would on Cell. Buu's reality warping and matter manipulation was backed by a universe and reality busting power. What was Z's backed by? How much can he destroy? I've yet to see anything pitting his strength on even the level of Cell, let alone Goku, Buu or Vegetto.

@ Galan007: So... you have nothing to say in defense? In other words, I have won. Not to mention that I've seen you post things that took up half the page before. 👆

@ BloodRain: You still haven't said anything other than "That's bs.". You have yet to disprove anything I've said, because it's true. Again though, speed IS equalized. So, until you can counter what I've said, your posts are the only bs here. 👆

@ Dramatic Gecko: Well, Buu is a matter manipulator with his candy beam, which is low-tier reality warping, I guess. However, he can still warp through and break reality just by yelling, so he is a low-tier or low-mid-tier reality warper.

You...have no idea what Light Hawk Wings are capable of do you?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
You...have no idea what Light Hawk Wings are capable of do you?

Yes, I do. They can be used to convert energy into matter, creating things like armor, shields and swords. I also know that in the possession of Z and pretty much anyone in Tenchi Muyo, other than the Chousin and Kami Tenchi, they cannot destroy reality or the universe. Buuhan, who is weaker than base Vegetto, can. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
the scan was dilated for exaggeration.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Buuhan, who is weaker than base Vegetto, can. 👆

Originally posted by NemeBro
No.

Yes.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Noncanon.

Manga noncannon. Anime/Daizenshuu cannon. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Buuhan, who is weaker than base Vegetto, can. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Manga noncannon. Anime/Daizenshuu cannon. 👆

It seems we have enough evidence (or the opinion of one character) that Z can only be destroyed by a universe destroying attack. And it seems argued whether or not Vegetto can pull off such an attack.

On the other hand, how can Z destroy Vegetto?

In all of the DBZ universe there hasn't been one character to compete, nor any attack.

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko

On the other hand, how can Z destroy Vegetto?

Well, we've never seen him go all-out in raw destructive power, since that's not his purpose. He very very casually, erased a third of the earth with no charge time to provoke his targets (why Z would make a poor DBZ villain- he does not mess around), just pointing his hand, but it's easier to work based on his LHWs since they can do much more than that.

LHWs can be used offensively as well as defensively, though not as hax as defense.

A third generation treeship is a planetbuster, and it takes two of them combined to make a single LHW wing. So, bare minimum is twice the power needed to planet bust to make a LHW... though quite possibly even 3rd gens may be well above the minimum needed to planetbust.

Each additional lighthawk wing takes twice as much power as the one before (1st wing takes one, 2nd takes 2 for three total, etc.), and Z has 5, so his power's something between 15 and 20 times that needed to make a single Lighthawk Wing.

Also, when fighting the goddesses, he used his power to draw a being from the future called the Counteractor (long story what she is. Suffice to say, she's specifically anti-goddess and her origin has to do with their powers) to face them. So he has powerful time powers as well.

Other beings with as many wings as Z or less have done things like ripped ships from hyperspace (which is supposed to be impossible, but hey, LHWs... hm, a lot like Buu's escape from the spirit and time room, come to think of it ^^), and then collapsed them into a point with gravity.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, we've never seen him go all-out in raw destructive power, since that's not his purpose. He very very casually, erased a third of the earth with no charge time to provoke his targets (why Z would make a poor DBZ villain- he does not mess around), just pointing his hand, but it's easier to work based on his LHWs since they can do much more than that.

LHWs can be used offensively as well as defensively, though not as hax as defense.

A third generation treeship is a planetbuster, and it takes two of them combined to make a single LHW wing. So, bare minimum is twice the power needed to planet bust to make a LHW... though quite possibly even 3rd gens may be well above the minimum needed to planetbust.

Each additional lighthawk wing takes twice as much power as the one before (1st wing takes one, 2nd takes 2 for three total, etc.), and Z has 5, so his power's something between 15 and 20 times that needed to make a single Lighthawk Wing.

Also, when fighting the goddesses, he used his power to draw a being from the future called the Counteractor (long story what she is. Suffice to say, she's specifically anti-goddess and her origin has to do with their powers) to face them. So he has powerful time powers as well.

Other beings with as many wings as Z or less have done things like ripped ships from hyperspace (which is supposed to be impossible, but hey, LHWs... hm, a lot like Buu's escape from the spirit and time room, come to think of it ^^), and then collapsed them into a point with gravity.

Z would make a poor DBZ villain because Cell could stomp him.

Even with that, Z is at most a 32x Earth buster. Cell was a solar system buster, which includes the sun, from a single condensed kamehameha wave. Even Vegeta level char's could blow up planets with single waves of their hands. A kamehameha wave that was made specifically to cause severe damage at a single point, that could blow up a solar system, is more than enough to handle Z with no trouble at all. If a single kamehameha could do that from Cell, then a supernova or something like Frieza used that's meant to cause widespread destruction, would destroy dozens of solar systems.

Supreme Kai even said that Kid Buu could destroy entire galaxies in an instant. Kid Buu never even used his full power before he fought the Daikaio, and even then destroyed less than the planet they were on, because he was focusing his attacks on Supreme Kai and Daikaio to do more damage to them. That's why SSJ3 Goku was able to easily kill the reality warping, universe busting Janemba. Janemba couldn't focus his power until he evolved into Super Janemba, so while he could destroy universes, he couldn't do any real damage to SSJ3 Goku level characters+, until he evolved.

Hyperspace is accesible through fast movement. It's another dimension layered on ours where time flows much slower. That's all it is. If they had that concept in DBZ, Krillin would be able to casually fly through hyperspace, as anyone who's faster than light can enter it. Buu ripping through dimensional barriers to enter other realities is very different. He had enough power to travel to separate realities by screaming, because the dimension he was in couldn't take his amount of power. That's a power on the level of Chousin's. Z has no feats even slightly close to comparable to that.

I should mention, when the counteractor showed up, a galaxy got destroyed, and the goddesses had trouble fighting her because summoning enough power to do so would destroy the universe.

So, if nothing else, the 'summon counteractor' ability should work, though that is admittedly fudging things a bit, drawing in a non-Z combatant.

Cell was a solar system buster, which includes the sun, from a single condensed kamehameha wave.

He named a technique that. Names may not all be literal.

No solar systems were destroyed even when Kid Buu was just going around blowing stuff up.

Hyperspace is accesible through fast movement. It's another dimension layered on ours where time flows much slower. That's all it is. If they had that concept in DBZ, Krillin would be able to casually fly through hyperspace, as anyone who's faster than light can enter it. Buu ripping through dimensional barriers to enter other realities is very different.

The dimension he ripped was just a little pocket one directly linked to the main DB one.

Oh yea, I'll also add: While Z may or may not be lacking in offense, Tenchi isn't. Even though he only has 3 wings, he also possesses the ability of matter conversion. Meaning that his blade can convert the matter of a target into energy, allowing him to cut, well, anything. He's cut his way free of a black hole.

Originally posted by Q99
I should mention, when the counteractor showed up, a galaxy got destroyed, and the goddesses had trouble fighting her because summoning enough power to do so would destroy the universe.

So, if nothing else, the 'summon counteractor' ability should work, though that is admittedly fudging things a bit, drawing in a non-Z combatant.

He named a technique that. Names may not all be literal.

No solar systems were destroyed even when Kid Buu was just going around blowing stuff up.

The dimension he ripped was just a little pocket one directly linked to the main DB one.

I'm not talking about a video game where he named an attack "Solar kamehameha", retard. Cell actually said he could simply blow away the entire solar system. 👆

Goku even said that Kid Buu was going to planets with only high power levels to try and find him and Vegeta. He wouldn't just blow up the galaxy when he was trying to find two specific people.

When just recklessly destroying stuff, Kid Buu can destroy entire galaxies, as proven by this scan. The reason universes don't get busted all the time in DBZ is because Goku can actually SAVE teh universe he's trying to protect. 👆

Big deal. Piccolo had the ability to convert energy into matter, just like Supreme Kai who could summon blocks of steel with density nearly equivalent to that of a black hole, according to the Daizenshuu. Goku lifted that with one hand effortlessly in base form. Goku's ki is far superior to magic, simply because he has the destructive force to vaporize matter itself.

Janemba was able to cut the universe in two dimensions, meaning he could cut absolutely anything, even stuff that Tenchi couldn't. The Daizenshuu says that Janemba's energy can warp reality to separate even base matter itself with a swing of his sword.

When just recklessly destroying stuff, Kid Buu can destroy entire galaxies, as proven by this scan.

"In only a few short years."

I.e. not in individual attacks, rather just in his rampaging over a period of time.

Big deal. Piccolo had the ability to convert energy into matter, just like Supreme Kai who could summon blocks of steel with density nearly equivalent to that of a black hole, according to the Daizenshuu.

Not really on a level of what Tenchi can do. And the reverse cannot be said to be the case- he cannot use the ability to slice through any matter.

Janemba was able to cut the universe in two dimensions, meaning he could cut absolutely anything, even stuff that Tenchi couldn't.

What makes you think dimensions is something Tenchi couldn't? Because he's cut open pocket dimensions before.

Dimension chain reaction.. dimension fabric durability.. back here again.

In a few short yrs he destroyed GALAXIES. He either had to been going trillions of times the speed of light to accomplish this (if he is doing it planet by planet) or he was destroying solars systems with single attacks (how many solar systems are in a Galaxy) which would still require a significant amount of speed far past the speed of light to accomplish, since again, per their words, he destroyed more than one Galaxy within a short amount of yrs OOOOORRR, he is a galaxy buster. Fhe minimum you can say is that, he is a solar system buster that speed is far greater than the speed of light (he didn't know the instant transmission when he was performing this ft) or you can call him a legit Galaxy buster. The choice is in your hands.

Originally posted by Q99
"In only a few short years."

I.e. not in individual attacks, rather just in his rampaging over a period of time.

Not really on a level of what Tenchi can do. And the reverse cannot be said to be the case- he cannot use the ability to slice through any matter.

What makes you think dimensions is something Tenchi couldn't? Because he's cut open pocket dimensions before.

Exactly what Carver said, he is either going so much faster than light that it makes everyone in Tenchi Muyo shit their pants, or he's busting galaxies since he destroyed MULTIPLE galaxies. However, Kid Buu was obviously destroying galaxies, otherwise Akira Toriyama wouldn't have said so. You're over-rationalizing something that was PROVEN just because you don't want to admit that you're wrong.

Tenchi can't slice through any matter either. He can increase his slicing ability by absorbing the energy in matter to dissolve the atomic bonds in it, but he can't cut something with significantly more energy and durability than he has. Like Vegetto, who is hundreds of leagues above someone who can galaxy bust with a single attack. 👆

Scans? Showing Tenchi cutting through the universe with reality warping 2 dimensional cuts, slicing literally anything it comes in contact with, of course. 👆

Either way, you can't just shake off something like a statement of galaxy busting, because we've seen Kid Buu go and individually kill people on certain planets, meaning he would have HAD to destroy a galaxy with a single attack, or it would have taken him MANY years while destroying certain planets individually.

Z get's shat on, as he has no feats putting him anywhere near galaxy level like someone who Vegetto is far above. 👆

Originally posted by carver9
In a few short yrs he destroyed GALAXIES. He either had to been going trillions of times the speed of light to accomplish this (if he is doing it planet by planet) or he was destroying solars systems with single attacks (how many solar systems are in a Galaxy) which would still require a significant amount of speed far past the speed of light to accomplish, since again, per their words, he destroyed more than one Galaxy within a short amount of yrs OOOOORRR, he is a galaxy buster. Fhe minimum you can say is that, he is a solar system buster that speed is far greater than the speed of light (he didn't know the instant transmission when he was performing this ft) or you can call him a legit Galaxy buster. The choice is in your hands.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Most scans only say planets.

Those are the Kanzenban revamp scans. This is the original created by AT with accurate translations. 👆