Wolverine vs Thor (Yes Marvel is doing it.)

Started by Creshosk23 pages
Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
I never said Vikings weren't Norse. I'm pointing out they aren't from Asgard.
Do I really need to point out that The asgardians are part of the viking mythos AGAIN?

Why would they have a different fighting style? And then there's valhalla... I mean your arguments just don't make any sense.

The problem is the same that people keep pointing out about Wolveirne and other martial artists.. since they have these superhuman stats they rarely if ever show it.

And it doesn't matter if you have 2000 years of fighting history if its the same damned thing over and over again, against opponents that use the same style.

Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
And the rest of my of my post wasn't about any character in particular but more the concept of the value of centuries of fight experience.
Okay lets compare the two... The norse culture was around for like 300 years. The Eastern, since the paleolithic era.

Hmm...

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
You probably would have picked that up if you read more than two sentences. Christ man. Don't believe in Peter Pan, Frankenstein, or Superman.[/]b
I don't. but I pay attention to the history of the cultures that thought these concepts up.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
[B]So you don't think people with long lives who engage in combat regularly wouldn't naturally evolve?
Why would they if they're fighting the same style over and over? This is evidenced by the fact that whenever they're shown they're using the same fighting styles. regardless of who it is.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
That they'd be stuck with the exact same moveset they had since day one? That seems silly.
That might be. but since that's always whats' ever depicted in the comics... its right up there with gama radiation not obliterating DNA but mutating it and spider bites givign super powers and random chemicals giving super powers.

It's part of the comic book history.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
In cases like Thor or Hercules where their culture is based around fighting, with them trying to constantly outdo each other to prove who's the best, you don't think their natural competitive nature over thousands of years could have given them comparable abilities to someone who instead travels the world to learn completely different styles? Feats aside,
Thats the problem. the comic books don't support this. Everything you see of these characters are based on that small window of history rather than your evidence supporting the natural evolution of Eastern martial arts.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
we're talking in theory here. I don't mean just because they're old. I mean they have the advantage of time and the competitive nature and need to one up each other. And as they say, necessity is the mother of invention.][/comics] Your arguments are sound as thats how the eastern Martial arts developed. But they're not supported by the comics which only shows us the fighting based on medieval combat.

[QUOTE=12191679]Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
In the example of 900 years of MMA training vs 100 years of MMA training after those 900 years both people have the benefit of actively experimenting and learning hand to hand skills. Let's say they're complete clones of each other. No futuristic enhancements or anything involved. The difference is after 900 years the first one is like frozen in time or something and the 100 year one goes at it for 100 years. Will the 100 year fighter have the advantage because of some crazy martial arts improvement in those 100 years? I really doubt it.

Thats the funny thing. the Norse style is not the ancient fighting style. the eastern one is.

Doctor-Alvis Post-Crisis Balki

Originally posted by Creshosk
Do I really need to point out that The asgardians are part of the viking mythos AGAIN?

Are asgardians those very same vikings?

Why would they have a different fighting style? And then there's valhalla... I mean your arguments just don't make any sense.

The problem is the same that people keep pointing out about Wolveirne and other martial artists.. since they have these superhuman stats they rarely if ever show it.


This isn't a comic specific debate.

And it doesn't matter if you have 2000 years of fighting history if its the same damned thing over and over again, against opponents that use the same style.

Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.


Alright, Nosey Nancy. You don't think they'd evolve either? Maybe it's me and I'm underestimating how stupid people are when I imagine Volstagg and Hogun have been duking it out with jabs for months. Volstagg figures out how to block and Hogun is screwed for a while. Hogun then learns he can uppercut under the block and Volstagg is screwed. Volstagg starts using kicks. Hogun starts throwing Volstagg to the ground. Volstagg starts learning counter throws. And so on and so on. I'm not saying it's the most efficient method but over the amount of time they allegedly have it should evolve into a very effective fighting style.

Okay lets compare the two... The norse culture was around for like 300 years. The Eastern, since the paleolithic era.

Hmm...

I don't. but I pay attention to the history of the cultures that thought these concepts up.

[...] Thats the funny thing. the Norse style is not the ancient fighting style. the eastern one is.


The cultures are irrelevant. In the myths, both in the comics and real life, how long are the Greek and Norse gods supposed to have lived? I assume the ancient people thought their gods lived for a ridiculous amount of time, before their cultures existed.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
Are asgardians those very same vikings?[/]b
Why would they have a different fighting style? Outside of powers its the same culture.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
[B]This isn't a comic specific debate.
Oh, I'm sorry I didn't realize I was in the metaphysical quantum fiction section...

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
Alright, Nosey Nancy. You don't think they'd evolve either? Maybe it's me and I'm underestimating how stupid people are when I imagine Volstagg and Hogun have been duking it out with jabs for months. Volstagg figures out how to block and Hogun is screwed for a while. Hogun then learns he can uppercut under the block and Volstagg is screwed. Volstagg starts using kicks. Hogun starts throwing Volstagg to the ground. Volstagg starts learning counter throws. And so on and so on. I'm not saying it's the most efficient method but over the amount of time they allegedly have it should evolve into a very effective fighting style.[]/b]
If its supposed to have evolved to be an ancient style, then how come it doesn't look like an actual anceint style?

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
[B]The cultures are irrelevant.[/]b
That's just another way of admiting you don't know anything about the culture.

Of course the culture is relivant its part of who and what the characters ARE.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
[B] In the myths, both in the comics and real life, how long are the Greek and Norse gods supposed to have lived?
Both respectively stemmed from creation.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
I assume the ancient people thought their gods lived for a ridiculous amount of time, before their cultures existed.
since the beginning of time.

But that still doesn't explain why his "ancient fighting style" is still only representative of the culture he's based upon and doesn't look like what an ancient fighting style really is.

We're supposed to believe that Thor, whom is based on a specific culture, will have a fighting style different from that culture?

I'm also going to point out the British redcoats again. The British empire had been using that line up and nobly fight style for hundreds of years. Why? Because it worked. no need to develop past it.

Then they run into the guriella warfare tactics. and suddenly they lose.

So this older fighting style suddenly couldn't stand up to a new one.

Why? Because they hadn't been refining their style for hundreds of years. Even though it had been around that long. Because they didn't feel the need.

Like I said practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. The Norse fighting style was not refined for ages. And it is in their mythology the fighting style and weapons and tactics of the gods that were given to them.

The reason why it doesn't look like an ancient style is because its not really. They hit a ceiling and they stopped. and now the actual ancient fighting style allows mere mortals to be on par with super humans. And perform feats that no regular human could.

Gee imagine that.

Battlehammer Senior Member

Great post cres, could not have said it haft as well. 👆

Creshosk Senior Member

Okay so...

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
This isn't a comic specific debate.
Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
The cultures are irrelevant.

The comics are irrelevant and the culture (mythology is part of the culture btw) is irrelevant...

Then what the hell are we supposed to be talking about here?

Kris Blaze Restricted

Asgardians existed long before vikings did in Marvel.

Asgardians existed long before humans, etc.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Asgardians existed long before vikings did in Marvel.
So this is about the comics then?

So how come their "ancient fighting style refined through the ages" doesn't resemble an actual ancient fighting style that's been refined through the ages?

Being around for a long time doesn't mean anything if you don't constantly refine it.

Like I said, look at the British redcoats from the American revolutionary war.

They used the same tactics that they'd been using for ages. And they still lost. If simply being ancient held any merit then the United States would not have been formed when it did.

You don't think its possible for the same thing to have happened with the asgardians? That they figured their style was good enough and stopped changing?

How come the asgardians existed long before the vikings did in the cultural mythos, and that the fighting style was given to them by the gods, and yet its still only that small window of time?

Is there a reason why whenever wwe see an asguardian fighting its the same style as their culture?

Kris Blaze Restricted

Originally posted by Creshosk
So this is about the comics then?

So how come their "ancient fighting style refined through the ages" doesn't resemble an actual ancient fighting style that's been refined through the ages?

Being around for a long time doesn't mean anything if you don't constantly refine it.

Like I said, look at the British redcoats from the American revolutionary war.

They used the same tactics that they'd been using for ages. And they still lost. If simply being ancient held any merit then the United States would not have been formed when it did.

You don't think its possible for the same thing to have happened with the asgardians? That they figured their style was good enough and stopped changing?

How come the asgardians existed long before the vikings did in the cultural mythos, and that the fighting style was given to them by the gods, and yet its still only that small window of time?

Is there a reason why whenever wwe see an asguardian fighting its the same style as their culture?

You don't really get Asgardians, do you?

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You don't really get Asgardians, do you?
I'm ignoring your fanboyism, because it disregards history, culture, logic, science, and the comic books themselves.

Kris Blaze Restricted
Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm ignoring your fanboyism, because it disregards history, culture, logic, science, and the comic books themselves.

Not really.

Odin created man. Asgardians have been around for countless millennia, humans have not.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Not really.

Odin created man. Asgardians have been around for countless millennia, humans have not.

Thanks for proving my point. 🙂

Kris Blaze Restricted
Originally posted by Creshosk
Thanks for proving my point. 🙂

No please go on, instead of flaming.

Please explain what proof you have that Asgardians only employ Viking-styles. I'd also like to know how those Viking-styles go with all the laser cannons and advanced technology they used to have in Asgard.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
No please go on, instead of flaming.

Please explain what proof you have that Asgardians only employ Viking-styles. I'd also like to know how those Viking-styles go with all the laser cannons and advanced technology they used to have in Asgard.

I already did. But you wanting to jump into the sack with thor is the only water in your cup. trace residue that hasn't fallen out.

And no my dear chap it up to you to prove that the DO use more.

As they don't in the comics. So if they don't in the comics, wehy should we assume they do, or that they should?

Its not logical.

Kris Blaze Restricted

Originally posted by Creshosk
I already did. But you wanting to jump into the sack with thor is the only water in your cup. trace residue that hasn't fallen out.

And no my dear chap it up to you to prove that the DO use more.

As they don't in the comics. So if they don't in the comics, wehy should we assume they do, or that they should?

Its not logical.

But you didn't.

Your only "proof" was that the Vikings invented the Norse religion and thus, any character tied to Norse religion would use Viking-fighting styles. Which would be true in the real world, but not in Marvel. The Vikings perception of the Norse mythology is wrong, faulty. The Norse pantheon in Marvel is different from the ones that they worshipped in ancient times. Just like how they followed a completely different set of rules and principles than the Norse gods.

This is basic for anyone who's read V2.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
But you didn't.

Your only "proof" was that the Vikings invented the Norse religion and thus, any character tied to Norse religion would use Viking-fighting styles. Which would be true in the real world, but not in Marvel.[]/b]

And as I said begfore they DON'T in the comics aside from magic and super powers.

Originally posted by Hitman911
[B] The Vikings perception of the Norse mythology is wrong, faulty. The Norse pantheon in Marvel is different from the ones that they worshipped in ancient times. Just like how they followed a completely different set of rules and principles than the Norse gods.

This is basic for anyone who's read V2.

and yet it'd be the burden on you to prove that they do or that they should.

It's not logical as I already explained. So why should they do something they're never shown to do?

"Because they're ancient"

I've already refuted that argument. Your false love for Thor is no proof that he should act in a way contrary to his character.

I say false love because you don't truly accept the character for who they are.

Kris Blaze Restricted

Originally posted by Creshosk
And as I said begfore they DON'T in the comics aside from magic and super powers.

and yet it'd be the burden on you to prove that they do or that they should.

It's not logical as I already explained. So why should they do something they're never shown to do?

"Because they're ancient"

I've already refuted that argument. Your false love for Thor is no proof that he should act in a way contrary to his character.

I say false love because you don't truly accept the character for who they are.

Concession accepted.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Concession accepted.
Reported for trolling.

StiltmanFTW CBvF
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Odin created man.

I thought it was Prometheus awesome

-V- Senior Member
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I thought it was Prometheus awesome

Reported for trolling.

Doctor-Alvis Post-Crisis Balki

Originally posted by Creshosk
Okay so...

The comics are irrelevant and the culture (mythology is part of the culture btw) is irrelevant...

Then what the hell are we supposed to be talking about here?


A generic set of gods that thrive on combat. Ones that would have lived for countless years. They don't even need to be gods, just long lived, youthful people. I keep referencing Thor and Hercules because they fit the bill pretty well but people seem to keep falling back on "*finger wagging wildly in the air* IN THE COMICS"

Imagine yourself and all your friends are going to live for say... ten thousand years. You'll pretty much be in your prime that entire time. And if you're not big into hand to hand stuff, you are now. You all want to be the best of your group in combat. Even if you had no previous training, don't you think you'd have something that makes you pretty sturdy against anything anyone can throw at you in hand to hand?

Maybe it's just me. I like to experiment with things. If I'm taught something I adapt it to the way I do things. If I can't get past something I figure out a way around it. I refine my methods. You'd essentially do what people did around the world over generations by yourself, with your group of similarly long lived friends. It may not be as efficient because you don't have the benefit of learning from everyone else's already established techniques but you have much longer to work on it.

I dunno, if it is just me, whichever of my less imaginative long lived friends who gets good at throwing a punch is going to be in a world of hurt when I start kicking his shins and he's stuck throwing hooks and crosses. He may call me cheap but evolve or die, *****!