Originally posted by truejediNope it wasn't me, though his extreme Fanboyism is reaching Nebs level I wouldn't be suprised If I found a certain part of Revans anatomy in his mouth.Spoiler:
guys, can't we just all go yell at SW_legend, and then get some drinks later?**look's around confused*
Who said that? Mattatom? Was that you?
Originally posted by GideonThen I will ignore, soon.
No.He should definitely be on ignore. At least DS is smart.
Originally posted by mattatomUh his fanboyism is MUCH higher than nebs.
Nope it wasn't me, though his extreme Fanboyism is reaching Nebs level I wouldn't be suprised If I found a certain part of Revans anatomy in his mouth. Then I will ignore, soon.
Nebaris at least formulate convincing and very good arguments while legend's are riddled with sheer fanboyism.
Originally posted by truejedi
I'm not disagreeing with Gideon either really. I have another idea to cover it all, i'll type it in later.
You don't have to disagree with Gideon, but he doesn't make any sense. I think we've only chalked up Luke's fights to CIS/PIS twice, 3 times at most maybe. How that constitutes as doing it "most of the time", I have no idea.
Originally posted by truejedi
And i have been convinced. If Maul's defeat was blatant PIS, so is Luke's strugge. I cast a 3rd vote for PIS. Not a huge believer in PIS myself really, but i guess if it can be used in other situations, i might as well use it here.
Truejedi, I'm getting to the point that I'm losing anything resembling patience with you. Maul's situation with Obi-Wan is not the same thing as Luke's situation with Rhea. Maul had defeated Obi-Wan and demonstrated superiority throughout their entire fight. Where did Luke do the same?
If you want to call PIS, prove it how it's the same.
xxxpoppunker182
for your first point it obviously is debatable because i still think luke's condition in this book are atleast on the same level as palpatines. This is a matter of opinion though and no matter what either of us say or do that's all it will remain opinion.
I'm sorry, but the fact that you think that this is the case doesn't make it so. Palpatine was injured enough that he was unable to use the Force without dire consequences for his biological state; Luke wasn't so weakened that he was unable to rely on the Force. Palpatine was clearly in a worse position and no amount of haggling is going to change that fact.
xxxpoppunker182
your second point i get it it's just I don't understand. The way i understand force exhaustion is that he is exhausted because he's using the force and this clearly states the opposite. as to how this applies to my other argument i can't remember...........
That's essentially it. Dooku was being taxed far too much during his fight with Kenobi and Skywalker that he spent almost all of his considerable Force reserves trying to compensate for his physical condition.
xxxpoppunker182
BUT after having some time to think about this I think we just have inconsistent writing. like is he really not that great because an author didn't write him accordingly in one fight?
No. I'm not letting this drop until you can prove that it's PIS rather than scrambling behind it as a last minute defense because Luke may just not be all you crack him up to be.
Gideon, it seems you're losing patience with everyone who's disagreeing with you. Perhaps you might retain a semblance of self awareness and realize you don't have any kind of legitimate argument, that you can't be objective, and that your contradictions are a result of your lack of objectivity.
Everything points to Luke's fight being PIS/CIS. I've already established the "how can this happen" scenario. Furthermore, you're still suggesting that Luke isn't as good as we think because of that fight, and his fight with Lumiya, completely ignoring the various of impressive feats that would put him above everyone else in the SW mythos other than Palpatine in regards to force mastery. You need a new bit, move along.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Which would render your whole opinion on the Luke scenario 100% moot. We won't even get into your dashing contradictions and pseudo logic concerning the caedus Luke fight.But essentially what you're saying is, a man who has the highest force potential other than Anakin, possibly the best saber duelist in the SW Mythos, who has fought Vader twice, Palpatine twice, Kun, Caedus, and many more lethal combatants, [b]CANNOT
defeat a woman who is part of a group of sith who have never, in their 5,000 years, faced anyone in combat? RIIIIIGHT. You must be trolling this week. [/B]
DS, you're on ignore. Until such a time that you can get someone to quote you, I have no intention of discussing anything with you.
Edit: Oh and before you predictably use this as "proof" that I clearly don't have you on ignore, it doesn't take Sevius to conclude that you're clearly addressing me, given two back-to-back posts within a minute of mine.
Obsession? Yes, I think so.
Originally posted by Gideon
DS, you're on ignore. Until such a time that you can get someone to quote you, I have no intention of discussing anything with you.
I don't need to Gideon. What's that, 3 people chalking it up to PIS/CIS while you're still rambling on incoherently about something that makes no sense? I don't care if you want to discuss anything with me. I keep posting because I'm right and you're wrong and the sooner you figure that out, the sooner you can get rid of your irrational nut case personality and apologize for being an idiot. 🙂
Obsession. That would be...Continuously posting when you're 100% wrong? As you say Gideon... Pot.Kettle.Black 🙂
truejedi
I think my Tiger Woods analogy on Luke is a good one. Unquestionably the best, but can still lose. Or the NFL "any given Sunday" thing.
That, in no way, explains how Luke's failure to overcome Rhea is PIS because Maul lost to Kenobi.
The distinction is rather simple, which is why it disturbs me that you've failed to recognize it. The "any given Sunday" expression is definitely an explanation for Maul's death. Why? Because it means that, under a certain set of circumstances, a superior opponent can lose to a weaker one. Under certain circumstances, I could kill Jet Li in a fight.
That's it.
Those same circumstances would never, however, allow me to outfight him. He's a black belt in several martial arts. The fact that he may not be feeling good won't turn me into a black belt and rival him in skill. Which is exactly what Rhea did; she challenged Luke on even terms.
Now, in the case of Maul and Kenobi, Kenobi was outclassed in every meaningful way. The only time he stood up to Maul with any significant effect is either when he was tapping into the dark side or had Qui-Gon on his side; the narration made it very clear that alone, he didn't have a chance.
You're comparing apples and oranges, and it doesn't fly.
Originally posted by Gideon
Truejedi, I'm getting to the point that I'm losing anything resembling patience with you. Maul's situation with Obi-Wan is not the same thing as Luke's situation with Rhea. Maul had defeated Obi-Wan and demonstrated superiority throughout their entire fight. Where did Luke do the same?If you want to call PIS, prove it how it's the same.
*sigh* i guess i will take myself out of this one entirely. This hasn't been my fight. I disagree with the assessment that Luke struggled overly much with Rhea and Vestera in the first place. I respect your assessment of it, but drew a different conclusion from the same source. Perhaps because my expectations of what Luke is capable of were lower?
Therefore, picking a side on why he struggled so much is probably what is making me appear illogical here. PIS, or Luke being weaker than previously thought are largely immaterial to me, because i still haven't seen anything from FOTJ that i think is unreasonably inconsistent with Luke's actions or abilities in the past. I admit i was playing devil's advocate in picking PIS a few posts ago, but you are correct, comparing it to the Obi-Wan-Maul fight was a piss-poor way to wade into that argument. I withdraw that comparison.
We still don't have the evidence necessary to figure out how powerful an opponent Rhea was anyway, so ALL of this is really immaterial. We know she fought like a shenbit. I don't know what a shenbit is, but the context made it sound impressive enough.
Gideon, your entire point seems to aimed at people who thought Luke was literally untouchable in combat.
In conclusion: I would question who thought Luke was actually untouchable before FOTJ? I certainly did not. Peerless? Definilty. Untouchable? Never. Not with the random element involved in melee combat. I seriously thought Jacen was going to kill Luke at some point in LOTF, and was pretty happy when it didn't happen. So i certainly didn't consider Luke unbeatable. But very unlikely to be beaten? yes.
btw: The comment about Rhea and the shenbit was a jest.
truejedi
*sigh* i guess i will take myself out of this one entirely.
That might be a wise decision. Because it's only going to get worse from here, and I'll explain why.
truejedi
This hasn't been my fight. I disagree with the assessment that Luke struggled overly much with Rhea and Vestera in the first place. I respect your assessment of it, but drew a different conclusion from the same source. Perhaps because my expectations of what Luke is capable of were lower?
This underlines my entire issue with yourself and Darth Sexy. The entire thing. Selective vision and reaching. The entire fight scene shows that Luke suffered injuries in combat, was telekinetically hurled aside by the Force, and muses to himself that he was "in no condition to be merciful" when Lady Rhea was distracted. That, to me, is the very definition of struggling. There is no ambiguity, no possible way to write that off. He flat-out muses to himself that he is in no condition to be merciful with her. How can that be anything other than the result of a struggle? The narration also muses that the fight had to have been both vicious and close in order for "one slip up" to cost them. Luke clearly wasn't sure of victory in this instance.
He didn't annihilate her, an aristocratic b1tch from a backwater world, with his superior skill and command of the Force. She stood up to him on even terms, scored several blows, and was killed only when she was distracted.
I'm sorry, but like it or not, he did struggle. You don't get to ignore that.
And once again to Gideon, that ignores all of Luke's feats that would put him at the top of the hierarchy, and focus on 1 or 2 letdowns as his whole argument.
But essentially what you're saying is, a man who has the highest force potential other than Anakin, possibly the best saber duelist in the SW Mythos, who has fought Vader twice, Palpatine twice, Kun, Caedus, and many more lethal combatants, CANNOT defeat a woman who is part of a group of sith who have never, in their 5,000 years, faced anyone in combat? RIIIIIGHT. You must be trolling this week.
And regarding him musing to himself:
" The Sith instinctively turned toward the light to see what was happening. They realized their mistake the instant their faceplates darkened and leapt into a series of evasive tumbles. But even that tiny slip was too much in such a vicous combat, and Luke was in no condition to be merciful. He followed the older Sith out into the hangar, taking advantage of her momentary blindness to lop off pieces".
Your whole argument rests on a phrase that you can't even put into the right context. He's in no mood to be merciful when in comes to dealing the killing blow to a distracted Rhea, not in the beginning or in the middle of the fight..
And it's hilarious how you accuse us of picking and choosing, when you claim Luke isn't all that great based on 1 or 2 letdowns and ignoring all of his other feats.. Once again..Pot.Kettle.Black. The end.
Pointing something out. I finally got a hold of Abyss and when the fight starts, Ben notes Luke can hardly manage to run for the Shadow in his condition, let alone take a prisoner from the Sith.
And then it's pointed out Luke didn't even have the energy to rebuke Ben for cheering him on as it wasn't helping. If Luke had the Codex and was being mightily boosted, can this be accounted for? Because it seems he was not at his best