FOTJ Spoilers Thread.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
So luke did poorly and was not at his best, thats acceptable but i will not except a whore being exceptionally strong.

Hence why i am going to argue she loses to vader, galen marek, sidious ,bane and caedus at their best(thats if any one wants to bring this up).

Yea that's the whole argument we've been trying to drill into Gideon's head. Luke wasn't at his best. Gideon keeps trying to say Luke just isn't that powerful and then explains that his intention all along was to show that look isn't infallible(contradiction). We get it, Luke wasn't at his best. At the same time, there's no reason to suggest that Rhea could hold her own against the other SW titans based on 1 fight.

Luke was said to be very weak and was close to DYING. And yet he and Ben still bested 15 sith. Luke alone while on the verge of dying held off Lady Rhea AND Vestara.

Originally posted by truejedi
Prove that statement. how the heck can you claim to know that? For a forum that prides itself on only using available evidence to judge power levels, i have seen a lot of unsubstantiated opinions offered about Rhea.

Truth is, we don't have enough information to decide how powerful she was. The one showing she had, she fought well with Luke Skywalker. So the only indication we have of her power makes her appear to have been very competent with a lightsaber.

By evidence no way would Shimraa defeat Rhea in a straight one on one battle. People need only recall the Unifying Force to know this.

And Luke was in poorer condition in his fight with Shimraa and still killed him with his first lightsaber swing.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's what happens. Dooku's efficient strikes are no match for a coordinated effort between Kenobi and Skywalker; he's forced to spend a great deal of his Force reserves imbuing himself with the physical strength necessary to not die when they attack him. Simply put, he's too old to deal with them strength-to-strength. When he's able to finally divide Kenobi and Skywalker, he's able to open himself up to the Force without interruption and replenish his Force reserves.

That makes sense but you have to realize that Dooku in ROTS is only 10 years older than luke in this fight. And that's one of the reasons I'd say look wasn't as good as he usually is even after he was getting stronger by the second because we still have no idea just how strong he got.

I get what you're saying with the popular vote thing but that is how most societies work, based on popular vote. Many people view abortion as wrong and should be illegal but the popular vote says that it's fine and then on the other side of it you have homosexuals wanting to get married in the US and in places where the popular vote say's it's alright it is but then head over to a different state and the popular vote say's it's not ok and it's illegal. And the other people who voted pro gay marriage still have to obey what the majority wants.

appealing to the majority obviously does work it's just that the opinions of others dictate what is and isn't "true" to that group of people. That's why societies around the globe are so completely different. Because of the popular vote and when the ruling government denies them what they want for long enough a rebellion and a revolution happens.

And so far the consensus is that Luke wasn't at his best in this fight. not even close. And his physical condition prior to the engagement is the direct cause of that.

Originally posted by Allankles
By evidence no way would Shimraa defeat Rhea in a straight one on one battle. People need only recall the Unifying Force to know this.

And Luke was in poorer condition in his fight with Shimraa and still killed him with his first lightsaber swing.

No way was luke in a poorer condition with his fight with shimraa than his condtion during his fight in Abyss.

Absolutely. Luke couldn't even open his IV pack, he had Ben do it for him. He just spent 3 DAMN weeks mind walking. Gideon wants you to ignore the evidence in favor of other, less crucial evidence.

He was battling against drop dead exhaustion mentally and physically in his fight with Shimraa, he'd already had to fight at his absolute best to wade through hundreds of slayers. On top of this Shimraa's battlefield manipulations with gravity generators, as he fought his personal guard.

Luke was completely exhausted by his efforts both in the force and physically, and yet he killed Shimraa with one swing alone.

In his fight with Rhea he's only physically weakened by torpor. His force abilities were not exhausted.

And there's something called "a jedi healing trance" his metabolism would have dropped etc to keep his body alive for 3 weeks. People shouldn't act like his metabolism was at normal and he came back into a zombie body.

Sure he was weakened in both instances, but in the Shimraa case he was fatiguing because he was hitting the limits of his combat abilities, not so in the Rhea case.

You're assuming that he could just snap into a jedi healing trance and everything would be ok. The book makes it clear that the only reason he was even standing was because of the force.

No I meant his body's metabolism had dropped to near standstill in those weeks (think hibernation or jedi healing trance). Otherwise he wouldn't have been alive, let alone capable of using the force.

Originally posted by Allankles
No I meant his body's metabolism had dropped to near standstill in those weeks (think hibernation or jedi healing trance). Otherwise he wouldn't have been alive, let alone capable of using the force.

Originally posted by Allankles
He was battling against drop dead exhaustion mentally and physically in his fight with Shimraa, he'd already had to fight at his absolute best to wade through hundreds of slayers. On top of this Shimraa's battlefield manipulations with gravity generators, as he fought his personal guard.

Luke was completely exhausted by his efforts both in the force and physically, and yet he killed Shimraa with one swing alone.

In his fight with Rhea he's only physically weakened by torpor. His force abilities were not exhausted.

he never fought hundreds of slayers he fought like 10 with jaina and jacen. Also Luke and jaina and jacen were in a battle meld so they were all using each others force reserves.

Luke was tired and that was a tough fight for Luke but going into that battle is not the same as him going into the one in abyss. especially when they specifically mention how he needs to get back to his body soon since he is about to die.

as to him going into a healing trance that never happened. have you read the book? Luke specifically asks what will happen to his body and if it will stay hydrated they say his body will take care of it's self so long as it can. THAT'S why luke makes sure his mouth can reach his straw thing in his flight suit, so his body can stay hydrated. He NEVER entered a healing trance until AFTER the fight.

the only reason his body was alive for those 3 weeks was because ben kept taking him food and water.

That's the problem of skimming through novels at a bookstore😉 , I might head over to a library to borrow this. I'm holding out on buying an SW novel until Crosscurrent (my dude, Jaden Korr will finally get a main feature).

I would. It's a good book. One of the best in recent EU I'd say

Luke wasn't at his best. Gideon keeps trying to say Luke just isn't that powerful and then explains that his intention all along was to show that look isn't infallible(contradiction).

I'm not reading the books, but how is "Luke isn't that powerful" and "Luke isn't infallible" a contradiction? [I haven't followed the thread very closely, summarize it for me?]

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
So luke did poorly and was not at his best, thats acceptable but i will not except a whore being exceptionally strong.

Hence why i am going to argue she loses to vader, galen marek, sidious ,bane and caedus at their best(thats if any one wants to bring this up).

once again, why whore?
And your 5000 years comment is ridiculous. You are assuming the Tribe is weak simply because it is new THAT is a fallacy. The Sith have one of the most cut-throat societies we have ever heard of. Xal spends the entire book waiting for Rhea to make a mistake so he can kill her. You talk about a society where combat skill would be a top priority.

That being said: I have no problem with her losing to all the people you named. All of those have more combat feats than she does. However, she would still count as a powerful opponent if she was on the Lumiya, Lomi, Shimrra, Alema Rar level. We don't have enough info to rule out that possibility. I don't claim she is as strong as Luke. I merely claim that she was strong enough to give Luke a good fight, based on her own merit. Not because of any knock against Luke. I mean, Shimrra wasn't all that powerful, and not even force sensitive, BUT he still almost killed Luke. So Rhea being at that level in order to give luke a good fight is hardly absurd thinking. Its calling her a no name that i don't understand. She just put up a decent fight against Luke skywalker. She can't be an absolute Johun Othune level nobody.

@Gideon. I don't feel like conceded anything. I was downright impressed with the combat from Luke the first time i read it, and I still am. Given the circumstances he was put in, if he had done any better it would have been wtf pawnage: Boring to read and would have made Luke ridiculously overpowered. He is human after all.

I guess I did Concede the PIS point, (That i held for all of 5 minutes) simply because i don't think we NEED PIS to explain why this fight went the way it did. I don't think the result was all that illogical. Luke was at ENOUGH of a disadvantage in the fight to keep it from needing an actual explanation.

Now, Luke started out unable to sit-up without using the force. He used the force to gain the ability to walk. Then to run, finally to fight a duel. It makes sense that every bit of force power he was forced to use to give him the ability to stand up-right and walk and run, would be some force power he couldnt' focus on the duel. This is the simple law of subtraction.

Whether Sidious or Dooku once used the force more effectively at re-energizing themselves is hardly the point. The point cannot be denied that Skywalker was not at 100 percent, and he still came out on top. He used the force to sustain himself for a battle that killed 12 sith.(regardless of how they died) He then fought a 2 on 1 duel and won. The fight was impressive for this reason.

Maybe we just weren't disagreeing in the first place. I didn't change my stance, so if we agree now, that must have been the case. I voted for PIS in a glib moment, but i see this more as a decent display of Luke's fighting abliity against an unknown (possibly very powerful) sith. I certainly don't claim that luke is invincible or unbeatable, just on top of the top tier.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm not reading the books, but how is "Luke isn't that powerful" and "Luke isn't infallible" a contradiction? [I haven't followed the thread very closely, summarize it for me?]

Gideon basically contradicted himself when we were arguing the fight Luke had with Caedus. It was NOBODY's contention that Luke was infallible...EVER....Gideon used his fight with Rhea to claim that Luke wasn't all that great and that he was the "Mace/Yoda of his generation". When a few of us attempted to call the fight circumstantial and at best, CIS/PIS, he got angry claiming that Luke has been outfought too many times for it to be simply PIS/CIS. He ignored all of Luke's feats over his life span in favor of the select few letdowns to claim Luke isn't that great. My contention(and the rest of the guys here) is that Luke is still #1 in the SW Mythos and from time to time, the authors decide to add CIS/PIS like they did in LOTF novels to make sure not to overpower him like they did in NJO/DN. There was no contention that Luke was infallible. Ever..

Originally posted by truejedi
once again, why whore?
And your 5000 years comment is ridiculous. You are assuming the Tribe is weak simply because it is new THAT is a fallacy. The Sith have one of the most cut-throat societies we have ever heard of. Xal spends the entire book waiting for Rhea to make a mistake so he can kill her. You talk about a society where combat skill would be a top priority.

That being said: I have no problem with her losing to all the people you named. All of those have more combat feats than she does. However, she would still count as a powerful opponent if she was on the Lumiya, Lomi, Shimrra, Alema Rar level. We don't have enough info to rule out that possibility. I don't claim she is as strong as Luke. I merely claim that she was strong enough to give Luke a good fight, based on her own merit. Not because of any knock against Luke. I mean, Shimrra wasn't all that powerful, and not even force sensitive, BUT he still almost killed Luke. So Rhea being at that level in order to give luke a good fight is hardly absurd thinking. Its calling her a no name that i don't understand. She just put up a decent fight against Luke skywalker. She can't be an absolute Johun Othune level nobody.

@Gideon. I don't feel like conceded anything. I was downright impressed with the combat from Luke the first time i read it, and I still am. Given the circumstances he was put in, if he had done any better it would have been wtf pawnage: Boring to read and would have made Luke ridiculously overpowered. He is human after all.

I guess I did Concede the PIS point, (That i held for all of 5 minutes) simply because i don't think we NEED PIS to explain why this fight went the way it did. I don't think the result was all that illogical. Luke was at ENOUGH of a disadvantage in the fight to keep it from needing an actual explanation.

Now, Luke started out unable to sit-up without using the force. He used the force to gain the ability to walk. Then to run, finally to fight a duel. It makes sense that every bit of force power he was forced to use to give him the ability to stand up-right and walk and run, would be some force power he couldnt' focus on the duel. This is the simple law of subtraction.

Maybe we just weren't disagreeing in the first place. I didn't change my stance, so if we agree now, that must have been the case. I voted for PIS in a glib moment, but i see this more as a decent display of Luke's fighting abliity against an unknown (possibly very powerful) sith. I certainly don't claim that luke is invincible or unbeatable, just on top of the top tier. [/B]

Which Gideon wants to contend with his "Mace/Yoda of his generation" comment.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
These were also lackeys to the REAL ancient sith. They were their inferiors. And these "sith" haven't fought an outside opponent to the death since they crash landed on the backwater planet.

Galen marek's parent's weren't nearly as strong in the force as Galen. Your point?

Nobody is saying that she sucks, but to put her anywhere near the top tier based on one fight with Luke would be fanboyism and ignorance.

That is why i keep asking for more information, instead of the way you continue to dismiss her as a "no name". There is simply not enough info to tell.

Yep, completely different from the other characters Gideon mentions.

82 years old is one thing, 3 weeks without food or water is quite a different thing. Luke had to have been getting some water. The human body can't even survive that long without out. Considering Luke was literally dying before returning, there is NO WAY we can say luke was at his best.

Which Gideon wants to contend with his "Mace/Yoda of his generation" comment.

Both statements are true. So i dont' disagree with Gideon that Luke is the Yoda of his generation.

Originally posted by truejedi
Galen marek's parent's weren't nearly as strong in the force as Galen. Your point?

That is why i keep asking for more information, instead of the way you continue to dismiss her as a "no name". There is simply not enough info to tell.

82 years old is one thing, 3 weeks without food or water is quite a different thing. Luke had to have been getting some water. The human body can't even survive that long without out. Considering Luke was literally dying before returning, there is NO WAY we can say luke was at his best.

And i agree with Gideon on that one. Yoda is the greatest Jedi of his generation. So is Luke. The only difference (and Gideon hasn't said this isnt' true.) Is that Luke is much much more powerful than yoda. Being the Yoda of his generation is actually a given... Luke Skywalker=Greatest Jedi of ANY GENERATION and
Luke Skywalker=Greatest Jedi of HIS GENERATION.

Both statements are true. So i dont' disagree with Gideon that Luke is the Yoda of his generation. [/B]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
His parents were also jedi..My point is if you're stranded on a backwater planet for 5,000 years with the only knowledge coming from a single crashed ship, it's highly unlikely you would rival your masters during the apex of dark side power.

Wouldn't have to rival the master's to give luke the piddling amount of trouble he recieved from Rhea though. Rhea simply had to be competent, not a no name. An unknown perhaps, but not a no-name. Johun is a no-name. Rhea is... Undefinable as of yet.

There's no reason to think she's powerful either. Again, knowledge from one ship...

I'm fairly positive the statement was made just to put them on the same level. You can't really say Luke is the Yoda or Mace of his generation if he's the most powerful out of any generation. That wouldn't make much sense.

I'm fairly certain too, but i knew what I] meant when i agreed with him, and that was good enough for me.

And yes it would. Did i not just go through this with you?

Yoda is the most powerful Jedi of his generation.
Luke is the most powerful Jedi of his generation.

Luke is also the most powerful jedi of any generation, but he definitly qualifies (and overqualifies) for the Yoda of his generation remark.