Guild Wars 2 finally starts to come to life

Well, that just shows you are not reading what I said properly. You are basically wrong if you think that that is how games work- defeating other people is nit the same as destroying their gameplay experience. And you trying to justify counterspells on the back of the awkward jumble of meta-mechanics that have been forced to evolve around it- further complicating the game and making balance an even bigger nightmare- is an indication of inadequate analysis.

And again, you are showing exceptionally muddled thinking if you think a game NEEDS mesmers else Elementalists are unbeatable. That's absolutely ridiculous. Many games have nukers but don;t needed dedicated counterspells. That you even made such a comment shows how totally unable you are to give this the objective view it needs. You have allowed your views to become skewed by thinking the way the game has evolved is the only way the game can work- a fundamental, square one error.

Anyway, you clearly don't agree. which is a shame, because if you listened you might learn something about how mechanic design works. I've laid out my points as I see them, anyhow. As it is, I cannot pursue the argument with someone who cannot see the basics.

dude your main point in 3 of your posts were - being interrupted isnt fun - thats weak sauce no matter what you mix it with. The fact it's a competitive game, it happens to have counters to alot of tactics readily available - like mesmers interrupts - your logic that "it's not fun to have my fireball interrupted, it ruins my gampla experience and shouldnt be in the game" is faulty.

As a warrior, it's not fun to get hit with a Fireball..do you think it ruins my gameplay experience?

Actually that's not my main point- it is a detail of one of my many points.

Your last sentence there shows, again, you are not understanding what I am saying, so we'll just have to leave it at that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Actually that's not my main point- it is a detail of one of my many points.

Your last sentence there shows, again, you are not understanding what I am saying, so we'll just have to leave it at that.

fair doos pal, im missing your point somewhat. I dont wanna fight anywho, who knows we may end up bumping into eachother in the return to tyria, i dont wanna make an enemy out of ya on a forum 😛

ignoring the back and forth weve jsut had, i personally think mesmers will be in the new game in some role. Im willing to bet they're hybrided though, with an adventuring class. The same way bard is not a scholarly class but an adventuring spell caster, But i guess we'll find out soon ^^

If they've redone how mesmers operate, then they may well be great.

Still, if Mesmers ARE in, what of the other options do you think have been dropped? Monk or Necro?

Well, I'd rather keep Mesmer in than Monk or Necro, personally. If they kill off Dervish, Ritualist, and Mesmer, that's my favorite professions all gone, and I've no idea what I'd even play (guess it'd depend on what new ones they'd add in).

With how they're making self-healing much bigger than it was previously, I'm sure they could do away with Monk entirely. I just don't know if they would because it is such a standard in fantasy games.

I'd say that they'd probably keep Necro because it's a pretty big mainstay and you can get pretty much anywhere with a decent one, but...they're not much fun to play. They're a lot better as a hero, in my opinion. Just too much fiddlyness and when it comes down to it, if you're not running Curses/Spiteful Spirit or walls of minions, you're pretty useless, and even minion builds can be pretty useless (and - Ritualists are better anyway for minions, as they can create stronger ones that last longer). People complain that Paragons and Ritualists are pigeonholed into one useful build, but Necromancers are pretty much the same way. Their flexibility pretty much comes from the fact that their primary attribute allows them to run anything as a secondary without energy problems.

They could very well make one of them a midline Adventurer profession, though. Mesmer would be a good choice for that. They're squishy, normally, but they've got plenty of defensive options and are really very very good at causing and controlling conditions.

None to be fair, i think Necros and monks are a dead cert, im really curious to see what they've done. The only reason i say they've kept mesmers is because they're pretty much the most unique thing in GW as far as fantasy rpg elements go.

I believe what Ushgarak is trying to say is that there's a difference between being outclassed by the other opponent's strategy by him dishing out more damage or having more defense, and being completely useless and unable to do anything when your being interrupted. If your an Elementalist and a Mesmer is on you, then no matter how hard you try the chances are you are now useless. This might be fun for the Mesmer as he knows that he's 'aggravating' the Elementalist and proving him useless, but it's also proving the Mesmer useless in the battle. If you have a GvG and one of your Mesmers is constantly on the opposing teams Elementalist, you might as well have a 7 on 7.

Although, you could make an argument that you could use Mesmers as utilities for other things such as interrupting any Ressurection Spells or having an interrupt for the Hall of Heroes. You could also say by minimizing the amount of people truly in the battle, by practically having a 7 on 7 instead of an 8 on 8 because your Mesmer and the enemy Elementalist cancel each other out, then if the rest of your team is more greatly experienced then the difference between the skill of both groups of players is going to be greater.

If the 'worse' players are 'canceled' out of your team by being Mesmers then your team has a higher chance of winning. Although, honestly, this is a bunch of bullcrap because nobody ever thinks that way and Interruption Mesmers tend to be the most skillful players. It requires a lot of reflex and experience.

Mesmer coming in as an adventurer is not out of the question- they always had a dapper style to their outfits, and being a trickster-type would seem to fit 'Adventurer'. I do think that would have to involve a shift of what they do to some extent, else... well, as they currently are they are blatantly scholars. Still, I could be wrong.

What do we think the other soldier class is? Will it be heavy vs. light warrior types, or a more fundamental distinction?

I think the two warrior typs will be..

Warrior - master of melee, devastating attacks up close and such. (great sword wielder, or dual wield) Similar to Aions Gladiator class. Will have more rushing/AoE orientated skills.

Elite Soldier, (warrior / paragon hybrid) more defensive type of warrior (sword and shield, sword and rifle proficiency) Liek Aions Templar. Some party Buff shouts, well, more than the other warrior anyway. Will have more shield orientated skills.

The third and most unlikely option is the true paladin (Warrior/Dervish) hybrid, Knight/soldier class or somesuch. but then again the balance issues of such a true hybrid might upset things

I think they might go with a rogue, an assassin/ranger hybrid.

And the other soldier class could be a buff/debuff type of soldier while the other a primary tank. It's either that, or something like a Berserker or Bladedancer, a soldier with less armor than the primary tank but he would be able to dual wield. Relies a lot on stances and stuff.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Mesmer coming in as an adventurer is not out of the question- they always had a dapper style to their outfits, and being a trickster-type would seem to fit 'Adventurer'. I do think that would have to involve a shift of what they do to some extent, else... well, as they currently are they are blatantly scholars. Still, I could be wrong.

What do we think the other soldier class is? Will it be heavy vs. light warrior types, or a more fundamental distinction?

I almost wonder if some of the Paragon stuff could be melded with the Mesmer? I mean, party buffs and enemy debuffs are very similar and could easily be handled by one profession, I'd think. Hmmm.

I do definitely think that, moreso than any of the other casting professions, Mesmer would work as an Adventurer-type, though yes they would need some definite reworking. As I pointed out, they already have plenty of personal defense options in the various Mantras, they're great with causing (and spreading!) conditions, and they even have a skill that let them be quite effective with a weapon. So it's not too much of a jump.

As for the soldier professions - I'm not sure. A light warrior could really be an adventurer more than a soldier, really. My guess is that it'll probably be something a bit bigger than that.

while the other a primary tank

Noooooo tanking is bad and boring. Drawing aggro = okay. Tanking and doing little else = baaaad.

I like the idea of a hybrid/Paladin type, though I don't see it terribly likely. But I'm biased. I want to continue playing Dervish!

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nowhere was I talking about their power. But the point of a class is not to make it powerful, but to make it interesting in a gameplay sense. Counterspells are very boring in a gameplay sense. The Yoda comparison is false- first of all, that WAS dramatic, but depended on it being a film narrative; it would not work in game. Secondly, people remember Yoda foremost for his power and wisdom, not his counters (which were, in any case, effectively offensive in of themselves)

Stuff should happen. A net result of 'nothing happens' is useless. It is exceptionally tedious to have your own mighty efforts fizzle. Counters should be dynamic, not just shutdowns. Ice can counter fire- great. But just a flat "this counters any spell"- poor. Meanwhile, everything else a Mesmer did just overlapped into the Curses portion of Necromancers.

It's also a balancing nightmare- vast amount of Guild Wars skills have had to be designed around the possibility of interruption. It's too much of a headache for a fundamentally boring ability.

My narrative would be false if Yoda's absorption powers were there *purely* as a narrative but that wasn't the case. It might just work in a game because the Bioware development team for "The Old Republic" plans to incorporate Yoda's absorption/elimination force powers into the "Consular" class. I agree that some of his powers were mildly offensive due to utilizing redirection but we've all seen Yoda simply make lightning disappear without necessarily redirecting it towards his opponent. This is his powers of control, which is something we know the Mesmer has.

As I mentioned previously, the Mesmer's abilities being "boring" is vastly subjective. Also, Mesmers do not really make nothing happen. They steal, deceive and build illusions which enhances their main skills - control and distraction. A part of me understands that kind of frustration but I simply cannot emphasize. Having giant walls of fire and deadly torrents of ice crushing everything in it's path with only another deadly spell to stop it seems too familiar and too boring to me.

Mesmers were definitely the highlight of creativity in GW to me... though I'm more interested in playing the paladin types because I generally enjoy melee and being able to help friends when needed

but I'm still rolling Asura >< *gets all selfish*

Originally posted by Ultraviolence
My narrative would be false if Yoda's absorption powers were there *purely* as a narrative but that wasn't the case. It might just work in a game because the Bioware development team for "The Old Republic" plans to incorporate Yoda's absorption/elimination force powers into the "Consular" class. I agree that some of his powers were mildly offensive due to utilizing redirection but we've all seen Yoda simply make lightning disappear without necessarily redirecting it towards his opponent. This is his powers of control, which is something we know the Mesmer has.

As I mentioned previously, the Mesmer's abilities being "boring" is vastly subjective. Also, Mesmers do not really make nothing happen. They steal, deceive and build illusions which enhances their main skills - control and distraction. A part of me understands that kind of frustration but I simply cannot emphasize. Having giant walls of fire and deadly torrents of ice crushing everything in it's path with only another deadly spell to stop it seems too familiar and too boring to me.

And if they can create and control illusions in an interesting and dynamic way, rather than just being shutdown merchants, then they will be very welcome.

Paladin types are noticably missing in GW, with the Dervish being the closest.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
Mesmers were definitely the highlight of creativity in GW to me... though I'm more interested in playing the paladin types because I generally enjoy melee and being able to help friends when needed

but I'm still rolling Asura >< *gets all selfish*

I'm actually not normally a melee person myself; GW is just odd in that most of the casting professions did not really appeal to me much. Mesmer and Ritualist are the only ones that I've really gotten into and enjoyed playing. Dervish managed to be just the right mix of melee and casting that I decided it was amazing about five minutes after making mine, heh.

And haha, knowing me I'll end up with at least one of each race/profession. Definitely the most interested in Sylvari though.

Originally posted by Peach
I'm actually not normally a melee person myself; GW is just odd in that most of the casting professions did not really appeal to me much. Mesmer and Ritualist are the only ones that I've really gotten into and enjoyed playing. Dervish managed to be just the right mix of melee and casting that I decided it was amazing about five minutes after making mine, heh.

And haha, knowing me I'll end up with at least one of each race/profession. Definitely the most interested in Sylvari though.

Yes, another Dervish player! I absolutely love playing as the Dervish but people are always ragging on me about how shoddy they are. I don't understand why because my Dervish is actually quite powerful, along with my Mesmer.

I really hope the racial benefits don't turn out to bite people in the ass though, i dont wanna see

'GLF [Elite Area Run] Need Nuker, but must be Sylvari Nuker as they get +2 to [magic somthing], so any nuker from any other race is obsolete'

i wanna see how they balance such a huge numebr of options in regards to racial bonus/profesion synergy. I dont wanna see it turn into a clonefest where all eles are Sylvari, All warriors are norn, all riflemen are Char and all mes/nec/ are Asuri just because they messed up balance.

What titles/ranks did everyone here achieve? I'm most proud of my r10 hero, r3 glad, and champ titles. Thank god I'll be able to transfer them to Guild Wars 2.

Ummm. I have maxed out two so far (Protector of Tyria and Elona). Right now it's looking like the only others I'm going to max are vanquishing Cantha and Elona, Sunspear and Lightbringer, maybe Cartographer, and maybe an EOTN rep.

Maybe.

I really don't try for titles much. If I get any of the cartography ones done, it'll be simply from exploring while vanquishing.