JLA Most Valuable Player

newjak thats a good point about his symbolism in the comic world and the listening thing. i didn think of that. also when anyone or everyone else on the list is getting wrecked u always think i wish supes was here but if hes getting wreck u gennerly think gee their screwed i hope batman comes up with something.if ww or flash get knocked of a fight no big deal u still have supes if he gets knocked out genneraly the teams in trouble and ur hopes go to bats. those were the feelings dc writers were counting on is dos. the oh crap supes is gone were screwed feelings. and dont lie u know u all felt it. thats why hes the mvp he does the job when nobody else can and when the job is as important as saving the world hes pretty valuable. its hard to argue with that since he is the posterboy and bringing out those thoughts and feelings for him is basicaly the writers intentions.

sorry i didnt mean to post that twice. for some reason if i post then hit the back button it posts again. sorry again.

Originally posted by Badabing
Point is DC, the JLA as well as most other people posting in this thread disagree with your opinion. Superman has been one of the deciding factors or [b]the deciding factor for victory in overcoming multiple crisis and invasions. [/B]

Originally posted by Digi
...let's also assume that we don't have massive PIS jobbing so that Supes can look awesome. Combined, the team is more powerful than Kal alone by a lot. If they can't tackle a challenge, chances are he can't either

srug

Speaking to his past achievements doesn't mean that others on the squad don't possess the power set to have accomplished the same things. Most of them do. Being the most powerful overall is indeed useful, just not the most useful because of the other attributes that the others bring.

That argument can be an answer to what pr was saying as well.

Also, there's been a few in agreement. I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. We both know that only Blair agreeing doesn't mean much.

313

Originally posted by Digi
Speaking to his past achievements doesn't mean that others on the squad don't possess the power set...

And there's your problem. 🙂

Batman

Originally posted by batdude123
And there's your problem. 🙂

I can't help it that writers like to wank him. They have good reason to, given his position in DC. But the fact remains that the vast majority of what he does could be replicated by this team.

That's because in the vast majority of the time, there aren't OWAW or Final Crisis type of events. When those come, he is always the last one standing and saving the day.

Originally posted by Philosophía
That's because in the vast majority of the time, there aren't OWAW or Final Crisis type of events. When those come, he is always the last one standing and saving the day.

But not because of something inherent in his power set that made it possible for him to be there while others couldn't. Like I said, writer wank...not something that he has that others don't. Tell me, for example, that Flash couldn't have phased himself through the Miracle Machine about a billion times in a split second to master its inner workings, then helped the DCU put it together to beat Darkseid. Are we to blame Flash that Brainy yanked Superman out of the timestream instead of Flash to do it? Hell, if Flash had known the entirety of the machine, it would've been put together a lot faster. He would've been better at it than Superman.

Or J'onn could have telepathically guided the construction, had he been alive. Or GL could've used his ring to record the schematics. Or...

So that's my point. Being in the right place at the right time, or even getting a job done that others didn't, doesn't make him more useful than the others. It just means he's DC's flagship, so of course he'll be in those situations. But not because of what he can do that others can't, but just because of who he is.

I still have yet to see something other than "He's Superman. He saves the day no matter what" or some variation thereof. And other heroes don't save the day thousands of times?! That's the kind of a priori argument that doesn't actually hold up in the forum.

He's not in the right place at the right time. He's simply the only guy who can do it, so he steps up to the plate and rises up on the expectations. In OWAW it was him who plowed through the Imperiex Probes while the rest of the Justice League was getting trashed. It was him who stood up to Imperiex. In World War III it was him who overcame Maggeddon, disharmed him and saved the day. In Final Crisis he was the last one to stand against Darkseid, to save everybody. He was the one who memorized the Miracle Machine. I'd argue that Flash wouldn't be able to do that, for plenty of reasons and that Superman was the best choice. It's fairly simple to deduce this from the story alone, so this argument is a pretty bad one. It was him who used the multiversal counter-frequency to erase Darkseid. He was the one who shrunk everybody until the danger was passed. He was the one who confronted Mandrakk. He was the one who..You get the point.

That's just the way the DC Universe works. This has actually been stated multiple times on panel. He is the guy that will eventually saves the day, it's in his nature. As Darkseid put it in Final Crisis #7 : "You turned your back and I wrecked your world!". No matter the thread, he will always be there in front, fighting it and eventually defeating it. He is the guy that everybody expects to save the world, the guy that is powerfull enough to do it and the guy who is meant to do it. It's not just "the writers are wanking him".

Originally posted by Philosophía
He's not in the right place at the right time. He's simply the only guy who can do it, so he steps up to the plate and rises up on the expectations. In OWAW it was him who plowed through the Imperiex Probes while the rest of the Justice League was getting trashed. It was him who stood up to Imperiex. In World War III it was him who overcame Maggeddon, disharmed him and saved the day. In Final Crisis he was the last one to stand against Darkseid, to save everybody. He was the one who memorized the Miracle Machine. I'd argue that Flash wouldn't be able to do that, for plenty of reasons and that Superman was the best choice. It's fairly simple to deduce this from the story alone, so this argument is a pretty bad one. It was him who used the multiversal counter-frequency to erase Darkseid. He was the one who shrunk everybody until the danger was passed. He was the one who confronted Mandrakk. He was the one who..You get the point.

That's just the way the DC Universe works. This has actually been stated multiple times on panel. He is the guy that will eventually saves the day, it's in his nature. As Darkseid put it in Final Crisis #7 : "You turned your back and I wrecked your world!". No matter the thread, he will always be there in front, fighting it and eventually defeating it. He is the guy that everybody expects to save the world, the guy that is powerfull enough to do it and the guy who is meant to do it. It's not just "the writers are wanking him".

Seems like a deus ex type of argument, then. I can understand it, but it still doesn't mean he has anything in his power set that the others don't. Because you're essentially just talking about a jobber aura, because it's a straight fact that he's not as powerful as probably any two on that roster combined, nor as versatile as most.

And yes, "it's part of his character to save the day" is straight DC wanking. The wank is built into the character himself, to the point that it's easy to miss it. But you're right that it's not writer-wank. It's company-wank. Small difference, however. If you looked at each and every instance of him "Saving the day" and ask yourself "could GL have done this? could Flash? could..." the answer will be yes a LOT of the time. The Miracle Machine is an example of this, and I really don't understand why you think Flash couldn't have replicated it. He can see atoms moving at infinitesimal rates. And he's faster, so he would've been better at it than Superman. And something like "confronting Mandrakk" is heroic, certainly, but hell, any hero could do that. You're not making a case for him with comments like that. Flash phased through Darkseid and got the bullet to hit him, and also brought the Black Racer to him. Does that make Superman less of a hero? Same argument.

And if he's ever shown to be more powerful than the entire team, we know that's PIS for the sake of his character. We know it's a fact that he couldn't beat this team on his own. Not even close. A few might take him 1-v-1.

There's a reason, for example, that high-level GLs are routinely taken in round 1 of vs. forum tourneys. Kal has been drafted once overall. It's because the GLs are more useful in terms of power and versatility.

To play devil's advocate a bit . . .

I guess my only question would be is he really the *only* person who can do these things? How much of these plots is driven purely by the fact that he is Superman and therefore supposed to save the day? For example, if J'onn were written to the best of his abilities why would he not be able to do the same things? Or WW? Or Flash? And I mean purely powerset-wise. We know that the league and the writers defer to Superman and that he has taken the role of "go-to" guy. I just wonder at this point how much of it is because he is really the only one with the tools to accomplish task x, and how much of it is "well he's Superman, so he should save the day."

Please, please don't read this as my claiming he is not valuable or has not earned his respect. I just think that it has to be acknowledged that some of these clutch performances of his were given to him b/c he's DC's champion. If GL were as popular a character, I think you'd see him saving the day more often. There is a bit of bias in this regard. This fact doesn't negate his feats, but it does highlight that *sometimes* the reason he is the last one standing is not necessarily solely because of his powerset.

I just think it's a thought worth considering.

^^ Nicely said. He's powerful and useful. Just not the most useful.

Originally posted by Digi
Seems like a deus ex type of argument, then. I can understand it, but it still doesn't mean he has anything in his power set that the others don't. Because you're essentially just talking about a jobber aura, because it's a straight fact that he's not as powerful as probably any two on that roster combined, nor as versatile as most.

And yes, "it's part of his character to save the day" is straight DC wanking. The wank is built into the character himself, to the point that it's easy to miss it. But you're right that it's not writer-wank. It's company-wank. Small difference, however. If you looked at each and every instance of him "Saving the day" and ask yourself "could GL have done this? could Flash? could..." the answer will be yes a LOT of the time. The Miracle Machine is an example of this, and I really don't understand why you think Flash couldn't have replicated it. He can see atoms moving at infinitesimal rates. And he's faster, so he would've been better at it than Superman.

There's a reason, for example, that high-level GLs are routinely taken in round 1 of vs. forum tourneys. Kal has been drafted once overall. It's because the GLs are more useful in terms of power and versatility.

It's not. If you want to talk powerset, I can just point you twoards OWAW and the Justice league's fights against the Imperiex Probes and Superman's confrontation with them, but I didn't think this discussion would turn into a powerset vs powerset type of exchanges, but more of concerning Superman's role in the DC Universe and the Justice League, not in a forum fight against them.

It's not character wanking when he is established as being able to do that in-story, multiple times. He has numerous times been established as superior to his fellow heroes and has outperformed them in battle against different types of opponents. Why Flash couldn't do it ? First of all because it was established that even a stray thought could lead to disaster which is why Brainiac only trusted Superman. The fact that once he got close to it, Superman stated that he can't reach it and faded away in a few seconds. (thus no phasing through it and learning everything in fractions of time), the fact that the Miracle Machine was stated to be the acumulated knowledge and experties of a whole culture and it took all their accumulated resources to build it (Sivana/Luthor and the like were amazed on how complex it was, and they only saw parts of it). The fact that without Superman wishing for a 'Happy Ending' or finding the Element X that he barely heard in the Mobius Chair, the Miracle Machine wouldn't have solved anything either way. It's fairly obvious why Superman was chosen for the job. He's the top guy, powerlevel wise, character wise and story-wise itself. Final Crisis and Superman Beyond wrote that 'in stone' sort to speak.

Faded away in a few seconds? Do you know what Flash can do in a few seconds? That Miracle Machine argument doesn't hold up. If a stray thought could doom it, I'd rather have the person to which 3 seconds is more like several days, than a well-meaning dude who x-ray visions it for a few ticks.

And is Kal really the only person capable of wishing for a happy ending? Please tell me that's a joke.

And like I said, the wank is built into the character. But even if it's simply "part of his character" it doesn't mean his power set is more useful. If your lone fallback example is the Imperiex thing, it's not much of an argument. Does that example negate GL being able to summon the Corps? Or Flash's speed in situations where only his speed can accomplish a task? Or when an awesome telepath is needed? Yeah, he was the most useful in that scenario. Doesn't mean he's the most useful period. Because you're ignoring all of the other times (and there are MANY) where the others were equally as useful, or more so.

So yes, if we only talk about the 2-3 times Superman was the most useful, he'll seem like he is. That's all your doing. You aren't talking about any scenario where he isn't, and where the talents of the others would be more useful than Kal's. It's a rather horrible selective bias. I too can construct hypothetical or actual in-comic situations where Supes is the most useful. but it doesn't negate my point. It means he's useful, as I've said. but not the MOST useful.

Originally posted by Digi
Faded away in a few seconds? Do you know what Flash can do in a few seconds? That Miracle Machine argument doesn't hold up. If a stray thought could doom it, I'd rather have the person to which 3 seconds is more like several days, than a well-meaning dude who x-ray visions it for a few ticks.

And is Kal really the only person capable of wishing for a happy ending? Please tell me that's a joke.

You don't understand, once he got close enough he couldn't advance any further and started to phase out. Meaning, Flash wouldn't get to phase into it.

You'd rather have a guy who can spend relative days in seconds (thus more 'stray thoughts' to pop-out while he tries to memorize everything (which like my later arguments showed, is very doubtfull)) than to have a guy who can take a look at it (instead of phasing through it repeatedly which like I pointed out earlier, can't happen either) and memorize everything close to instantly ? What the hell, Digi ?

The 'Happy ending' one also seems to have went over your head. It's not as much as anybody else not being capable of doing it, but thinking of doing it. Nix-Uotan basically summarized later by saying "He's Superman. He wished only the best for us all. He wished for a happy ending, Weeja Dell'. It was a statement about Superman and how he's always trusted to make the right decision in every circumstance.

I'm not even going to mention you ignoring some of the other arguments. You're seriously still arguing that Superman wasn't obviously the only one capable of doing this and that Flash was a better candidate, in spite of contradicting evidence ?

Originally posted by Digi
And like I said, the wank is built into the character. But even if it's simply "part of his character" it doesn't mean his power set is more useful. If your lone fallback example is the Imperiex thing, it's not much of an argument. Does that example negate GL being able to summon the Corps? Or Flash's speed in situations where only his speed can accomplish a task? Or when an awesome telepath is needed? Yeah, he was the most useful in that scenario. Doesn't mean he's the most useful period. Because you're ignoring all of the other times (and there are MANY) where the others were equally as useful, or more so.

So yes, if we only talk about the 2-3 times Superman was the most useful, he'll seem like he is. That's all your doing. You aren't talking about any scenario where he isn't, and where the talents of the others would be more useful than Kal's. It's a rather horrible selective bias. I too can construct hypothetical or actual in-comic situations where Supes is the most useful. but it doesn't negate my point. It means he's useful, as I've said. but not the MOST useful.

You keep bringing up "powerset! Look! POWERSET!' instead of taking a look at the bigger picture and seeing that Superman is regarded as the top guy, shown as the top guy and proven as the top guy. Yes, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Green Lantern have powers that Superman may not have, but it's shown that he is still far better at confronting the threats than they are. And this is basically what this thread amounts to, is Superman the most essential guy to the Justice League ? And the answer is yes (along with Batman, but that's another discussion), as everything points to it.

At first i agreed superman is least valuable until someone brought up wonder woman...

Superman to me is gonna be the most valuable. In the game i play the position of tank is very important. The better the tank the better the other more versatile but less power players cone in

for examplr as a tank i have the ability to inspire morale becsuse evrryone knows that im now there to lead the charge. Take the hits and that im willing to take the hits on pain of death... Even grern lanterns will run...

his morale boost is his biggest asset. He can slip in and out to help anyone at any time... Why... Its not just the speed amd stength but also the emhaced sight and hearing that allows him to keep tabs on all teammates at all times... When caps in a fight he knows when to ditxh an opponent to save someone else... Its how he rolls...

He is the best protector(read tank) of his teammates.. A good tank will convince his teammates that they can still go on wven when its 4 to 3 but skill outmatches their firepower...

Huge damage soak, strength amd speed... Even if he cant defeat yhe biggest guy out there, he can stall them until help arrives... Or superman will arrive jit to save everyone... Except foethat nasty kryponite problem of course...

For my add... I hoose sentry... Hes would be to the jla what hulk was to the original avengers. The memnera of the jla having similar powers could teavh bob how to better contol his powers. Supermans aura would probabky help keep bob in check. Aquaman and mms menyal powers pkus bruces intellect solve the void problem... Then you have a superman type bruiser who cant die and can insta heal revive all jla members... Like what happened to bobs wife...
And since bob has the power of a million exploding suns... Assuming tgose suns are yellow superman is gonna be amped akl the time around sentry!

This is more for bob than the jla... The man needs help and that cornrow goblin isnt doing it

Originally posted by Philosophía
You keep bringing up "powerset! Look! POWERSET!' instead of taking a look at the bigger picture and seeing that Superman is regarded as the top guy, shown as the top guy and proven as the top guy.

This is the main thing I was questioning in my post. If you don't look at powerset, what is it that makes him the top guy? If we are including the morale boost of having superman as a reason to make him MVP, then that is fine I guess. Also, I'm a little hesistant to just accept the "shown as the top guy" argument because we know there is some bias in that. I just can't think of that many scenarios where Clark is really the ONLY person who can save the day. The same goes for all of them really.

If Diana isn't strong enough to defeat the foe physically, she has her weapons and access to the Gods. Hal can use his ring to come up with something crazy or Zatanna her magic. J'onn has the same physical stats basically (less skill with them), plus other powers. Flash can use the speed force and Bruce has his brain. I think in a more balanced world, you would see them all step up and rise to the occasion equally. They are heroes. That is what they do. But this group isn't just any group of heroes. They are THE group of heroes. And I don't think any one of them is better or more capable than the other.

Originally posted by Philosophía
It's not. If you want to talk powerset, I can just point you twoards OWAW and the Justice league's fights against the Imperiex Probes and Superman's confrontation with them, but I didn't think this discussion would turn into a powerset vs powerset type of exchanges, but more of concerning Superman's role in the DC Universe and the Justice League, not in a forum fight against them.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You keep bringing up "powerset! Look! POWERSET!' instead of taking a look at the bigger picture and seeing that Superman is regarded as the top guy, shown as the top guy and proven as the top guy. Yes, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Green Lantern have powers that Superman may not have, but it's shown that he is still far better at confronting the threats than they are. And this is basically what this thread amounts to, is Superman the most essential guy to the Justice League ? And the answer is yes (along with Batman, but that's another discussion), as everything points to it.

Which, as I pointed out earlier, was Digi's problem from the start.

I never argued that he wasn't the "top guy." He certainly is. It's just that you guys are ignoring the other scenarios, hypothetical or ones that have actually happened in a comic, where someone other than Superman is the most intrinsic to the team, plan, etc. I think his overall power comes in handy less often than, say, Flash's speed, GL's versatility and resources, MM's tp, etc. So are there things Superman can do that the others can't? yes, unequivocally. Again, I've never disputed this. But to what extent that use is able to be manifested, that has been my contention. Because, let's say I concede the FC stuff (miserable arc anyway, and our back-and-forth just highlights how ambiguous some aspects of it were, because I clearly read some of it differently than Phil), a lot of what Superman does can be replicated by the rest of the team. Every feat? No. But a lot of them.