JLA Most Valuable Player

Originally posted by Blair Wind
So says the Tier thread. So, its not just me 🙂.

Besides, Digi is right. Each teammember brings something new to the table

[b]Batman: Strategy, tactics, and his monetary/tech resources
Wonder Woman: High level physical stats, and magic
Martian Manhunter: Telepathy, high level physical stats, intangibility, and shapeshifting
Flash: Speed Force tricks - (Stealing speed, energy constructs, IMP, ect)
Green Lantern: The Ring. Which can do anything.
Superman: Highest level physical stats.

Yes, he is physically the strongest, but he is not the fastest, not the best combatant, does not have the best mind, and unless you count T-Vo brings nothing new to the table which has not already been covered or can be done using the versitility of the others. For example: if Superman did not exist - and by that I mean his creators never created him - therefore losing his spot as DC's poster boy, and GL were to be in his place, you think GL's wouldnt be able to do what Superman does? All they need to do is imagine it. Done deal. At least they would have a decent reasoning as to why they can do such OMGPWNs type things.

No offense to those you support him (Im looking at you PR), nor am I trying to say Superman is not a powerful or respected hero, he just brings nothing new to the table besides his S-Shield. [/B]

It's been pretty well established that Supes doesn't bring any powers to the table that other league members don't cover, he may do it better than them, but they still do it. But, I think that the idea of Superman as a symbol is a point that is being overlooked here. Can a Green Lantern do things with his powers that Superman cannot? Absolutely. But, a Green Lantern showing up to a desperate battle does not bring the sense of hope that Superman does. I suppose you could argue that this aura of inspiration is yet another example of wanking, but I would say that it isn't. It is an integral part of the character of Superman, it always has been. Superman always being the one to save the day in events like Final Crisis is clearly a move to make the flagship character look good, but Superman being an inspiration is as much a part of Superman as his powers or weaknesses. I would say that this inspiration alone is enough to put him in debate for the Most Valuable, and certainly should keep him away from the least valuable. And, if I had to pick a least valuable, it is not easy, but I would probably say WW.

Originally posted by Digi
It's just that you guys are ignoring the other scenarios, hypothetical or ones that have actually happened in a comic, where someone other than Superman is the most intrinsic to the team, plan, etc.

I seriously can't believe anyone would put Superman as the least valuable.

Originally posted by IronDave
It's been pretty well established that Supes doesn't bring any powers to the table that other league members don't cover, he may do it better than them, but they still do it. But, I think that the idea of Superman as a symbol is a point that is being overlooked here. Can a Green Lantern do things with his powers that Superman cannot? Absolutely. But, a Green Lantern showing up to a desperate battle does not bring the sense of hope that Superman does. I suppose you could argue that this aura of inspiration is yet another example of wanking, but I would say that it isn't. It is an integral part of the character of Superman, it always has been. Superman always being the one to save the day in events like Final Crisis is clearly a move to make the flagship character look good, but Superman being an inspiration is as much a part of Superman as his powers or weaknesses. I would say that this inspiration alone is enough to put him in debate for the Most Valuable, and certainly should keep him away from the least valuable. And, if I had to pick a least valuable, it is not easy, but I would probably say WW.

Superman as a symbol is definitely not being overlooked. Read through the last couple pages of discussion. It's being hammered home again and again, ad nauseum. Besides:

Originally posted by Digi
I never argued that he wasn't the "top guy." He certainly is. It's just that you guys are ignoring the other scenarios, hypothetical or ones that have actually happened in a comic, where someone other than Superman is the most intrinsic to the team, plan, etc. I think his overall power comes in handy less often than, say, Flash's speed, GL's versatility and resources, MM's tp, etc. So are there things Superman can do that the others can't? yes, unequivocally. Again, I've never disputed this. But to what extent that use is able to be manifested, that has been my contention. Because, let's say I concede the FC stuff (miserable arc anyway, and our back-and-forth just highlights how ambiguous some aspects of it were, because I clearly read some of it differently than Phil), a lot of what Superman does can be replicated by the rest of the team. Every feat? No. But a lot of them.

Which acts as both an answer to your post and also bumps it since I hate the end of the page.

fdog

Originally posted by IronDave
It's been pretty well established that Supes doesn't bring any powers to the table that other league members don't cover, he may do it better than them, but they still do it. But, I think that the idea of Superman as a symbol is a point that is being overlooked here. Can a Green Lantern do things with his powers that Superman cannot? Absolutely. But, a Green Lantern showing up to a desperate battle does not bring the sense of hope that Superman does. I suppose you could argue that this aura of inspiration is yet another example of wanking, but I would say that it isn't. It is an integral part of the character of Superman, it always has been. Superman always being the one to save the day in events like Final Crisis is clearly a move to make the flagship character look good, but Superman being an inspiration is as much a part of Superman as his powers or weaknesses. I would say that this inspiration alone is enough to put him in debate for the Most Valuable, and certainly should keep him away from the least valuable. And, if I had to pick a least valuable, it is not easy, but I would probably say WW.

He does more with what he does have than most of the rest of the JL combined.

Anyway.

MVP: Kyle

Supes and Bats for MVP.

LVP? its WW.

Remember that scene in Indiana Jones where the arab guy was doing all the fancy moves with the sword, Indiana then took out his gun and shot him dead.

Indiana is like Superman, he ain't fancy schmancy, but he'll get the job done.

Originally posted by Starscream M
Remember that scene in Indiana Jones where the arab guy was doing all the fancy moves with the sword, Indiana then took out his gun and shot him dead.

Indiana is like Superman, he ain't fancy schmancy, but he'll get the job done.

Indiana with a gun = Luthor with kryptonite

Arab guy = Supes

vin

Remember that scene in Full Metal Jacket when Pyle was going crazy in the restroom, then he shot Sargeant Hartman.

Pyle is like Kyle, he's fat and cant climb over a wall, but he'll go crazy and shoot you in a restroom.

i still cant wrap my mind around the argument that u can take a couple of them and basicaly have supes power set but it is the combination that makes him so lethal. u take anyone of his powers and it changes him completly. the flash is fast but, does he have super hearing so he can hear trapped people and x-ray vision to find them and the strength lift the building and heat vision to cut through the rebar and use x-ray again to check for injuries and to know its safe to move them. no hed need help wheras supes could do it alone.where it would take multiple characters to compensate for his loss he can basically compensate for any and all of them.

Kyle can do anything Supes can do better.

Roughly 10x better.

Remember that scene from Superman returns where Superman lifts up that kryptonite continent and throws it into space and saves the world?

Superman is like Batman, he throws kryptonite continents into space.

That's why he's the MVP.

Remember that scene in Batman where Batman decided to become Batman.

Well Batman is like Batman, he becomes Batman.

That's why Kyle is the MVP.

Remember that scene from X-Men 3, where Magneto lifts the golden gate bridge and moves it to Alcatraz?

Magneto is like the Flash, in that he runs fast.

That's why Batman is MVP.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
So says the Tier thread. So, its not just me 🙂.

Besides, Digi is right. Each teammember brings something new to the table

[b]Batman: Strategy, tactics, and his monetary/tech resources
Wonder Woman: High level physical stats, and magic
Martian Manhunter: Telepathy, high level physical stats, intangibility, and shapeshifting
Flash: Speed Force tricks - (Stealing speed, energy constructs, IMP, ect)
Green Lantern: The Ring. Which can do anything.
Superman: Highest level physical stats.

Yes, he is physically the strongest, but he is not the fastest, not the best combatant, does not have the best mind, and unless you count T-Vo brings nothing new to the table which has not already been covered or can be done using the versitility of the others. For example: if Superman did not exist - and by that I mean his creators never created him - therefore losing his spot as DC's poster boy, and GL were to be in his place, you think GL's wouldnt be able to do what Superman does? All they need to do is imagine it. Done deal. At least they would have a decent reasoning as to why they can do such OMGPWNs type things.

No offense to those you support him (Im looking at you PR), nor am I trying to say Superman is not a powerful or respected hero, he just brings nothing new to the table besides his S-Shield. [/B]

the tiers thread is also run by digi. 😛

also: 😐

i don't mean to sound like an ass, but do you not get the entire point of having superman in the league? and you left out several of superman's abilities.

if a gl was poster boy, then they'd need an amp to go with it. an amp he doesn't have.

also, 👆 @ everything philo said.

Remember that scene in The Goonies at the end when Mikey has the diamonds in his pocket so they can pay for their homes.

Well Superman is like Sloth, he is deformed and retarded.

That is why Kyle is the MVP.

Remember that scene from Of Mice and Men, when George shot Lenny in the face?

Batman is like George, he shoots Wonder Woman in the face every night.

That's why he's the MVP.

Remember that scene in American History X when Edward Norton was raped in the prison showers by the neo nazis?

Tim is like Norton, he is sexually molested by Batman in the shower.

That is why Alfred has a camera in the shower head.

Kyle is the MVP.

Remember that scene from American Psycho when he had all those body parts in the refrigerator?

Major Force is like Patrick Bateman, he killed Kyle's girlfriend and stuffed her in a refrigerator.

That's why Batman is MVP.