Exar Kun vs. Yoda

Originally posted by Advent
For the record, no, he hasn't used the amulet in a battle with a Force user and, no, it isn't explicitly stated that it can't be blocked. But explain what Yoda is going to have to do, and the energy he's going to expend doing such. The blasts are a physical manifestation of pure dark side energy. The gauntlet is capable of causing explosions that nearly match the size of the Sith Wyrm. In the comic, humans (Exar and the Massassi) are shown to relative specks by comparison to the beast and the detonation of the beams’ impact. The beams effortlessly tear through solid temple rock and alchemical-modified hide. They can be fired with no apparent downtime and “with every impulse of [Kun's anger], [b]double the power of its discharge”.

Yoda gets the brunt of exhausting himself to Kun's use of barely a fraction of stamina and reserves. He would have to absorb all of that energy or provide a Force defense. He's exhausting himself either way, because if he doesn't dissipate the energy because it will cause enormous explosions to his immediate location. [/B]

Does seem difficult indeed.
If Yoda had a moment to throw Kun through the air into his chair (ergo Sidious) It would keep said amulets from being effective though, wouldn't it?

Amulets seem a lot like a Nihilus drain the way you explain them, or an Orbalisk Bane.

Kinda like giving one combatant a stick, and another a lightsaber, and expecting a fair fight.

well not really as the amulets are exars only way to win... >.>

<.<

Could yoda disarm him from his amulets? This is not my argument though, that was what LS and maybe gideon rambling that in a previous thread.

Originally posted by truejedi
In that case, I'm going to go Yoda. The "most powerful foe the darkness had ever known" fought the "most powerful Sith Lord in history" to a standstill. Said Sith Lord even tried to run from Yoda at the beginning of their duel.

1.) Yoda was called "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" in a source that's written in third-person limited perspective. The same source also calls Anakin Skywalker "the most powerful Jedi of his generation and perhaps of any generation". The line is absolutely nugatory.

2.) Can anyone find me a quote that specifically calls Sidious "the most powerful Sith Lord in history" that hasn't already been debunked as open to interpretation?

3.) If quotes are the be all, end all...

"The most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords, Exar Kun” – this is from the “Dark Lords of the Sith” section of the The Official Star Wars Fact File (keywords there: official, fact), a canon magazine compilation of...well, facts. The profile on Sith Lords included Darth Sidious, Darth Vader and Freedon Nadd, among a couple of others. The intention of which was to discuss the power and history of the dark side.

hahaha.

and thats why absolute quotes are pointless. 😄

Dark empire souce book.

Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned

The complete visual dictionary regarding exar kun:
Exar Kun , Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith

Dark empire souce book.

Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned

Originally posted by Advent
Dark Empire was created in 1991. At that point, Kun wasn't even an idea on the drawing board; certainly not an established character in the mythology. Kun's first appearance is in 1994 in Dark Lords of the Sith.

Hell, even the Dark Empire Sourcebook was published an entire year before DLotS.

The complete visual dictionary regarding exar kun:
Exar Kun , Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith

Originally posted by Advent
That doesn't contradict it in any way, shape or form. Exar Kun wasn't as powerful as a spirit as he was when he consisted of flesh and blood. For example, by the New Jedi Order's time, Kun was a 4,000 year old half-mad ghost. Since he's shown to be both alive and dead, it would only make sense if he was "once" the most powerful since he's not in death.

This post is a response to things brought up in this thread about the quote about Exar Kun that I've provided.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Which means what exactly? That the quote is no longer valid? There is still a mountain of evidence to prove that sidious is the most powerful sith lord in history so i don't see this quote being invalid at all but rather it being supported by this "mountain of evidence".

Sure, it may have been made before TOTJ and KOTOR but that doesn't automatically make it invalid at all now seeing there's actually proof to back it up from numerous sources.

The author of the series and source book wrote them at a time when Kun didn't even exist. That means we know Exar Kun definitively wasn't considered when that statement was made (ergo invalid). The quote in the Official Fact File, however, was stated after the establishment of Exar Kun as a character and took into consideration Sith Lords like Palpatine. Hence the DE source book quote being nugatory when compared to the later source.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
So are you arguing that kun > sidious?

What does that even mean? Am I arguing that Kun is greater than Palpatine in every respect? The answer would be "No".

Even if we go by those quotes, there is still enough evidence to put sidious above exar kun, i mean hell just look at the entire essay in the first page.

Let me first point out, if we do go by those quotes, what you consider evidence of superiority is trumped by that statement. You wouldn't be "going by those quotes" as much as blatantly ignoring them.

The essay's conclusion is true: Emperor Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. The reason being is because when you consider "most powerful" consisting of everything from his Force power, knowledge, and combat prowess to his political power, he absolutely is. This doesn't mean that others can't rival him in certain aspects, as Gideon points out.

Kun's Force power, combined with his knowledge of ancient Sith magic and artifacts, makes him "the most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords". It'd be hypocritical of you to say that that quote can be lobbed out the window just because you don't agree with it. You and others were tossing around quotes about Sidious and claiming it was valid and binding. Those same quotes that have already been debunked (meaning there's nothing to counter the claim).

That said,

Sadow’s gauntlet allows him to focus dark side energy into beams of destructive energy that tear holes through alchemical-enhanced leviathans and temple rock. The beams cause massive explosions that are nearly matching the size of the Sith Wyrm. Upon equipped the gauntlet, Kun's rage is “multiplied by a thousand…then a hundred thousand”. Rage is what the dark sider draws upon to fuel themselves. It should be noted that the Dark Side Sourcebook states that the Sith amulet "radically enhances the wearer's telekinesis".

Kun effortlessly mind controlling the entire Galactic Senate, composed of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of sentient beings from all walks of the galaxy. The apparent ease of which he performs the spell (he maintains control even when he makes a mockery of the trial by using the Chancellor as a puppet, and while dueling his former master) suggests that this was far from his upper limit.

Against the battle master of the Order and his former instructor, Kun is depicted as toying with the six century old master Vodo Siosk-Baas. The end result is cleaving through Vodo's defenses like he was nothing.

The stalemate against Ulic Qel-Droma, one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in history, was a battle that "could have gone on for hours" (Dark Side Sourcebook), indicating Kun's stamina and reserves of strength against someone equally as skilled as he was.

Powerful Sith sorceress Aleema tries to blast Kun with Sith magic, but the assault is shrugged off by Kun without so much as flinching. Then he uses the same ability to knock her out cold.

Kun outright resisting the “most devastating attack possible using the powers of the light side” performed by Odan-Urr, arguably the most knowledgeable Jedi master ever and a master of the Force sever technique. Odan used this ability in combat to strip ancient Sith Lords of the Force and has had a thousand years since then to refine his proficiency with it (to no effect against someone like Exar). Exar counters by casually pwning him with a simple wave of the hand.

As an extremely weakened 4,000 year old spirit, he managed to separate post-DE Luke Skywalker's spirit from his body with a technique that Luke had no defense for and could not innately resist. He was shown as being able to use Sith magic against a living Jedi, burning his body from the inside out. As well as Force choking an entire group of Jedi in that bat-shit insane state. Imagine Exar Kun in the flesh and blood.

We know that he was also a master of Force lightning, Force whirlwind, and a plethora of ancient Sith techniques. Using a line from Gideon's essay:

Originally posted by Gideon
The Dark Side Sourcebook cites “Sith alchemy” as being a practice that only the most powerful adepts can master. Palpatine’s simulacrum makes reference to the teachings of Naga Sadow, “one of the most powerful Sith alchemists” of the Sith Empire.

Kun studied directly from revered Dark Lord of the Sith Naga Sadow's personal treasure vault and became proficient with Sith alchemy, creating monstrosities out of the Massassi people that he ruled over.

His bladework speaks for itself, with less than a decade of training, Kun was considered "the most formidable student (Vodo) ever had" and a “master swordsman”. He created and mastered his own unique lightsaber and corresponding style from scratch. This indicates that his technical knowledge of saber combat is among the greatest we've seen. Mastering the use of a single blade, Jar'Kai, and of course, the double-bladed lightsaber support that. He also has several aces up his sleeve in a lightsaber fight, like his lightsaber's dual-phase ability; which means he can extend his saber's blade-span up to a whooping 10 ft or set the blade intensity low enough for another saber to pass right through it. It'd likely throw one off-balance and allow for an opening to capitalize on - through the Force or otherwise.

There's more than enough evidence that supports the quote in the Official Fact File, which happens to consider it official fact. Palpatine has more expansive knowledge by far + a better command over the Force through experience, but Kun is stronger, and combined with his artifacts, Sith arcana, and saber abilities, he's more dangerous.

Ultimately, if you want to disregard quotes, fine. By that standard, it's just my opinion that Exar Kun is the strongest. But that means it's a matter of opinion to say that he isn't or that Palpatine surpasses him. Also, that calls into question the validity of similar statements.

If you look at what we know about Palpatine and decide that he's more powerful than any Sith Lord ever, that's fine with me. It's your opinion.

If you look at what we know about Exar Kun and decide that he's more powerful than any Sith Lord ever, that's fine with me. It's your opinion.

If you dictate that opinion about Palpatine as absolute, that's not fine with me, because your opinion isn't more valid than the next.

If you dictate that opinion about Exar Kun as absolute, that's not fine with me, because your opinion isn't more valid than next.

The truth is, if we do disregard "ever" quotes, then "ever" is a matter of your personal interpretation of the characters (which is fine by me). Since nobody disputes the fact that both Palpatine and Exar Kun are among the most powerful Sith, the absence of quotes leaves it to opinion.

Now now advent i cannot argue against that because doing so would be like putting me into the ring with Mike Tyson.

Spoiler:
The real reason is your intellect is far superior to mine

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Can it be argued that yoda could move fast enough to dodge the blasts?

It can be argued, yes. Has it been argued? No. 😛

Kun was shown firing the blasts with no indication that they weren't being fired rapidly a la DBZ. And Yoda would also have to avoid the radius of the impact the beams make as they cause massive explosions that cover a large area.

It is not enough to say that Yoda can move really fast, therefore he can dodge really fast amulet beams fired by a really fast Force user. While it may or may not be true, it hasn't been justified.

I think it really depends on how large the blasts are the initial time kun fires it, chances are that yoda may be able to dodge them assuming exar kun isn't extremely pissed off yet because i assume the damage and radius of the blasts increase as his anger swells up.

Its plausible that he can dodge them but not 100% justified as you said.

Advent.... Please show me what advantage Kun has over Palpatine. I'll be waiting. I know you aren't suggesting that Kun has more knowledge of the force or the dark side, or is even close in that arena. I also know that you couldn't possibly claim that Kun's command of the dark side surpasses or even equals Palpatine's.

Read Gideon's essay. There's no real evidence that suggests Kun is even on par with Palpatine. The feats simply don't compare.

Originally posted by Advent
1.) Yoda was called "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" in a source that's written in third-person limited perspective. The same source also calls Anakin Skywalker "the most powerful Jedi of his generation and perhaps of any generation". The line is absolutely nugatory.

2.) Can anyone find me a quote that specifically calls Sidious "the most powerful Sith Lord in history" that hasn't already been debunked as open to interpretation?

3.) If quotes are the be all, end all...

[b]"The most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords, Exar Kun” – this is from the “Dark Lords of the Sith” section of the The Official Star Wars Fact File (keywords there: official, fact), a canon magazine compilation of...well, facts. The profile on Sith Lords included Darth Sidious, Darth Vader and Freedon Nadd, among a couple of others. The intention of which was to discuss the power and history of the dark side. [/B]

You've made this thread so someone would pull out the Yoda quote so you could show this off (which you probably had already written before you started this thread), didn't you?

Originally posted by Advent
The author of the series and source book wrote them at a time when Kun didn't even exist. That means we know Exar Kun definitively wasn't considered when that statement was made (ergo invalid). The quote in the Official Fact File, however, was stated after the establishment of Exar Kun as a character and took into consideration Sith Lords like Palpatine. Hence the DE source book quote being nugatory when compared to the later source.

What does that even mean? Am I arguing that Kun is greater than Palpatine in every respect? The answer would be "No".

The essay's conclusion is true: Emperor Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. The reason being is because when you consider "most powerful" consisting of everything from his Force power, knowledge, and combat prowess to his political power, he absolutely is. This doesn't mean that others can't rival him in certain aspects, as Gideon points out.

Kun's Force power, combined with his knowledge of ancient Sith magic and artifacts, makes him "the most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords". It'd be hypocritical of you to say that that quote can be lobbed out the window just because you don't agree with it. You and others were tossing around quotes about Sidious and claiming it was valid and binding. Those same quotes that have already been debunked (meaning there's nothing to counter the claim).

Sadow’s gauntlet allows him to focus dark side energy into beams of destructive energy that tear holes through alchemical-enhanced leviathans and temple rock. The beams cause massive explosions that are nearly matching the size of the Sith Wyrm. Upon equipped the gauntlet, Kun's rage is “multiplied by a thousand…then a hundred thousand”. Rage is what the dark sider draws upon to fuel themselves. It should be noted that the Dark Side Sourcebook states that the Sith amulet "radically enhances the wearer's telekinesis".

Kun effortlessly mind controlling the entire Galactic Senate, composed of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of sentient beings from all walks of the galaxy. The apparent ease of which he performs the spell (he maintains control even when he makes a mockery of the trial by using the Chancellor as a puppet, and while dueling his former master) suggests that this was far from his upper limit.

Against the battle master of the Order and his former instructor, Kun is depicted as toying with the six century old master Vodo Siosk-Baas. The end result is cleaving through Vodo's defenses like he was nothing.

Powerful Sith sorceress Aleema tries to blast Kun with Sith magic, but the assault is shrugged off by Kun without so much as flinching. Then he uses the same ability to knock her out cold.

Kun outright resisting the “most devastating attack possible using the powers of the light side” performed by Odan-Urr, arguably the most knowledgeable Jedi master ever and a master of the Force sever technique. Odan used this ability in combat to strip ancient Sith Lords of the Force and has had a thousand years since then to refine his proficiency with it (to no effect against someone like Exar). Exar counters by casually pwning him with a simple wave of the hand.

As an extremely weakened 4,000 year old spirit, he managed to separate post-DE Luke Skywalker's spirit from his body with a technique that Luke had no defense for and could not innately resist. He was shown as being able to use Sith magic against a living Jedi, burning his body from the inside out. As well as Force choking an entire group of Jedi in that bat-shit insane state. Imagine Exar Kun in the flesh and blood.

Kun studied directly from revered Dark Lord of the Sith Naga Sadow's personal treasure vault and became proficient with Sith alchemy, creating monstrosities out of the Massassi people that he ruled over.

His bladework speaks for itself, with less than a decade of training, Kun was considered "the most formidable student (Vodo) ever had" and a “master swordsman”. He created and mastered his own unique lightsaber and corresponding style from scratch. This indicates that his technical knowledge of saber combat is among the greatest we've seen. Mastering the use of a single blade, Jar'Kai, and of course, the double-bladed lightsaber support that. He also has several aces up his sleeve in a lightsaber fight, like his lightsaber's dual-phase ability; which means he can extend his saber's blade-span up to a whooping 10 ft or set the blade intensity low enough for another saber to pass right through it. It'd likely throw one off-balance and allow for an opening to capitalize on - through the Force or otherwise.

There's more than enough evidence that supports the quote in the Official Fact File, which happens to consider it official fact. Palpatine has more expansive knowledge by far + a better command over the Force through experience, but Kun is stronger, and combined with his artifacts, Sith arcana, and saber abilities, he's more dangerous.

I would argue that sidious saber skills are above that of kun.

But i am not going to give the details and explanations now, its bad enough shitting in your pants when trying to fart due to gastric flu.

I think Advent has lost her mind.

Dr. McBeefington...what, yesterday?

Originally posted by Advent
"The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed."

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Seems clear cut to me. There are questions only if you're specifically looking to doubt the quotes in favor of an alternate, yet less logical meaning

Originally posted by Advent
"The most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords, Exar Kun”

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Advent, you're really reaching here.

Don't expect me to take any of your posts seriously. You don't bring anything to the table, and it's getting old. You've been doing this for years and the value of your pseudo-logic remains zilch.

Originally posted by Advent
Dr. McBeefington...what, yesterday?

Don't expect me to take any of your posts seriously. You don't bring anything to the table, and it's getting old. You've been doing this for years and the value of your pseudo-logic remains zilch.

I've destroyed your logic Advent. Get over it. I'm not the only one who thinks you've fallen off your high horse of intelligence, and now we have someone that either makes shit up, posts retarded arguments, or just bitches the whole time.

Please show me where I said quotes are end all be all. If I recall correctly, the ONLY position I've ever taken was one where if the feats and information support the quotes, then it's 100% valid.

Do us all a favor and stop posting here. I think we've had a good laugh about "Qui Gon getting curbstomped on Tatooine because it was a test." You're basically going on ignore for incessant stupidity and ignorance.

They both have clear cut quotes it seems. So now we must go by feats and raw power, and Palpatine has him BEAT.