Exar Kun vs. Yoda

Started by Lightsnake6 pages

Originally posted by Advent
Stop trolling:

Is there any reason you don't seem to be reading the passage provided from an out-of-universe source? Is there any reason why you think finding a typo in the Star Wars data bank disproves...anything?

And SUDDENLY you gain standards for THIS, too? Miss "An in universe quote meant to illustrate new knowledge!...except when I don't like it."

I'm sorry, are you making this argument? Hey, in-universe sources presenting new information aren't valid, despite my arguing for them in the past

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Pretty pathetic examples. Try and be more specific next time.

Freezing the entire Senate (millions) and killing one of the Order's top Jedi.


Millions? The senate at its MAX consisted of thousands of seats, not millions. Prove up.


Killing the only Jedi to modify the Jedi Code with a mere whim.

So he killed someone with legislative clout, and?

Surviving the combined assault of a small Jedi army. (He lost his body, but survival is survival).

Poor argument. He survived because he ran off and performed a ritual that trapped his soul in the temple. He never fought a single Jedi on Yavin

Killed Sith wyrm, which is pretty dang powerful.

Prove it. It was a mindless beast from what we saw

Killed Freedon Nadd, who was also extremely powerful (Sadow's apprentice, conquered planet, spirit powerful enough to be serious threat even to Jedi Masters)

Nadd: Fear me not! I am powerless in my current state, Jedi! (From The Freedon Nadd Uprising)
Nadd was dangerous because he could corrupt. They did NOT fear his spirit's power despite occasional bursts that knocked down one surprised Jedi.
Oh, you forget Nadd was caught off guard when Kun punched him with something that automatically destroyed him.
Clone Trooper #4 must be AWESOME as he shot Ki Ai

Invented the double bladed lightsaber and his own style, which was never able to be replicated.

Probably retconned now, sorry. Prove this 'own style,' too

What can you offer for Sidious???

Want to get us started, kiddo?

Look who's come crawling back...

ouch

Originally posted by Advent
First of all, you can't wave around quotes if you haven't produced them. As usual, you're making claims without proof. It's your opinion that Kun's showing don't support him being the most powerful. They support him being the most powerful if he is, and according to that canon statement at least, he is.

Second, a fabricated e-mail that supposed to be from Kevin Anderson doesn't mean jack shit.

"I have a quote applying to one era from 2001. Let me ignore the ones from earlier and future years."

Ultimately, if you want to disregard quotes, fine. By that standard, it's just my opinion that Exar Kun is the strongest. But that means it's a matter of opinion to say that he isn't or that Palpatine surpasses him. Also, that calls into question the validity of similar statements.

Yeah, great. Prove it. Using something beyond double standards and a single overwritten quote from 2001

If you look at what we know about Palpatine and decide that he's more powerful than any Sith Lord ever, that's fine with me. It's your opinion.

If you look at what we know about Exar Kun and decide that he's more powerful than any Sith Lord ever, that's fine with me. It's your opinion.

If you dictate that opinion about Palpatine as absolute, that's not fine with me, because your opinion isn't more valid than the next.

If you dictate that opinion about Exar Kun as absolute, that's not fine with me, because your opinion isn't more valid than next.

The truth is, if we do disregard "ever" quotes, then "ever" is a matter of your personal interpretation of the characters (which is fine by me). Since nobody disputes the fact that both Palpatine and Exar Kun are among the most powerful Sith, the absence of quotes leaves it to opinion.


Amazing. One of the most hardliner 'my way or the highway' posters in this entire board who has rarely, if EVER had issues with the Antediluvians forcing their opinions in the old days (Read: Traya, Nai, Sorgo) is suddenly "Well, let me have MY opinion?"

You have to be kidding about the absence of quotes, too. There aren't an 'absence' of them, you're creating reasons to dismiss the ones you don't like.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Few things you kind of neglect, Advent:
1. The UTTER hypocrisy of the old Antediluvian route of "No context of power!!!!!" DESPITE your own quote providing...no context of what power means. He

Are you embracing their argument then? I don't understand because you say 'the utter hypocrisy of the Antedelivian' and remind me that I'm 'neglecting it' (wouldn't that be a good thing?). My beliefs are that if it says "most powerful" it means "most powerful" unless there's reasonable evidence from the context of the passage that contradicts that. In Palpatine's case, every last quote that I've seen (so far, at least) has been under the assumption of political power or written from an in-universe perspective that don't have the authority to make such a claim.

3. You also neglect to mention it's discussing the OLD REPUBLIC ERA THERE, period. There is no 'ever,' no 'in history,' no 'all times,' nothing. It's describing the Sith of that specific era and no other.

What? The entire two page article is about Sith Lords from the PT, OT and Old Republic. It says that he's "the most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords", it's reasonable to assume it was including people like Palpatine because...he's profiled on the page immediately before and is a Sith Lord. You're looking for things that aren't there.

Oh, and you know what's rich? Your response to the DE quote is to vaguely complain about how there are things more recent but when a more recent quote from Vader the Ultimate Guide is introduced, you suddenly develop contradictory standards and claim "Oh, well, power doesn't mean!"
Well, I don't see "In The Force" after 'powerful' for your pony tailed prince. Can we say double standards?

Lightsnake, the more recent quote from Vader: the Ultimate Guide has the pretense of political power. It was clearly defined as being such and I explained why already. It isn't a double standard.

Amazing. One of the most hardliner 'my way or the highway' posters in this entire board who has rarely, if EVER had issues with the Antediluvians forcing their opinions in the old days (Read: Traya, Nai, Sorgo) is suddenly "Well, let me have MY opinion?"

Actually, I said if we're disregarding quotes like those, then yes, it is a matter of opinion as to who's the most powerful ever since Kun and Palpatine are basically among the most powerful Sith Lords regardless.

Advent
2.) Can anyone find me a quote that specifically calls Sidious "the most powerful Sith Lord in history" that hasn't already been debunked as open to interpretation?

The one mentioned in Vader: the Ultimate Visual Guide does stand out; there are others that mention things along the lines of how Palpatine "succeeded where all others failed in taming the dark side" (Dark Empire Sourcebook) and how he was "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" (Complete Visual Dictionary). I'd be happy to provide the bulk of them, but that will have to wait until I'm home and able to cite most of my sources.

Advent
"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known."

We're given the definition of what 'power' means in the context of this sentence at the beginning. 'Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire'. It's obvious then that galactic dominance and having reign over a militant empire is what 'power' was alluding to. You can't find a single person with

I'm not certain I agree with this line of thought. That Vader mentioned "establish[ing] his own rule over the Empire" does not necessarily refer to either political or militaristic authority; Palpatine's very existence is an impediment to Vader's growth as a Sith Lord, given that the Emperor maintains a stranglehold on all relevant Force knowledge the galaxy abroad; his death would remove an obstacle for Vader's scholarly pursuits without having a higher authority constantly looking over his shoulder and limiting his knowledge base. Especially when one considers that Palpatine used Imperial resources for collecting such information, through dark side adepts and other agents, the term 'power' does have relevance to Force-related issues.

More importantly, where does Palpatine's supreme authority as the head of state or commander-in-chief have anything to do with Vader being unable to "hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known?" Rather like Janus's argument against a similar statement from the New Essential Chronology, the conflict being referenced isn't political filibuster or gerrymandering or debates of any kind, but a struggle to the death between two Lords of the Sith. Likewise, would a Star Destroyer be enough to interfere? Palpatine's political and military authority really have no direct reference or consequence to Vader's aspirations: especially when one considers that Yoda himself very nearly got the job done; I don't recall the Imperial Army or Navy being much help to the Emperor then.

Advent
3.) If quotes are the be all, end all...

That's just it: they aren't. To my knowledge, no one has asserted that a quote or statement from any source is automatically correct; particularly if there is direct contradiction from another source. Consider the publisher's summary on the paperback version of Specter of the Past, volume one in the Hand of Thrawn duology: "Hugo Award-winning author Timothy Zahn makes his triumphant return to the Star Wars(r) universe in this first of an epic new two-volume series in which the New Republic must face its most dangerous enemy yet—a dead Imperial warlord."

The statement is clearly out of universe, referencing Timothy Zahn; and yet we, the audience, are to believe that the mere rumor of the late Grand Admiral Thrawn's return is "the most dangerous enemy" the New Republic has ever faced? That would not only surpass the real Admiral Thrawn, but as well as the likes of Zsinj, the Disciples of Ragnos, Hethrir, the Pentastar Alignment, Daala, and the reborn Emperor himself.

The statement is clearly contradicted in the grand scheme of things. Even when one takes into account the accolades of swordsmen such as Anoon Bondara, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, et al. one must provide an adequate frame for the statements: is it possible that what numerous sources consider to be three of the Jedi's finest swordsmen were simply utterly inept when faced with a Sith Lord? No; we rationalize it by explaining that Palpatine's command of the Force allowed him to move faster than their own respective command allowed them; it has no bearing on their skills with a lightsaber so much as it does their relative power in the Force.

Advent
There's more than enough evidence that supports the quote in the Official Fact File, which happens to consider it official fact.

I would, again, disagree with you here. Like you expressed to me in a private message, it would be best for you to argue that the absence of proof is not proof of absence, because a comparison of feats between Kun and Palpatine would leave Kun, and anyone supporting him, rather embarrassed.

Advent
Sadow’s gauntlet allows him to focus dark side energy into beams of destructive energy that tear holes through alchemical-enhanced leviathans and temple rock. The beams cause massive explosions that are nearly matching the size of the Sith Wyrm. Upon equipped the gauntlet, Kun's rage is “multiplied by a thousand…then a hundred thousand”. Rage is what the dark sider draws upon to fuel themselves. It should be noted that the Dark Side Sourcebook states that the Sith amulet "radically enhances the wearer's telekinesis".

The presence of the gauntlets radically reduces the impact of the feat itself; Palpatine accomplished all of his [more] impressive feats without the assistance of Force-boosting arcana.

Advent
Kun effortlessly mind controlling the entire Galactic Senate, composed of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of sentient beings from all walks of the galaxy. The apparent ease of which he performs the spell (he maintains control even when he makes a mockery of the trial by using the Chancellor as a puppet, and while dueling his former master) suggests that this was far from his upper limit.

Does the spell require constant concentration and maintenance? The term implies a ritual. But, even if I were tempted to play: Kun mind-controlled the Senate; Palpatine mind-controlled the entirety of the Imperial Navy for two decades, used his "mindfogging powers" to assist Imperial engineers in burying a Super Star Destroyer beneath Coruscant (New Essential Guide to Characters), manipulated General Grievous with the Force, and his death severely impacted the mental equilibrium of every Imperial at Endor.

Advent
Against the battle master of the Order and his former instructor, Kun is depicted as toying with the six century old master Vodo Siosk-Baas. The end result is cleaving through Vodo's defenses like he was nothing.

Which, no offense, is nothing compared to Palpatine's defeat of the three Jedi Masters sent to arrest him with Mace Windu, his battles against Windu, Yoda, Galen Marek, as well as his personal murder of Arden Lyn, a twenty-five-thousand year old dark Jedi and the lover of Xendor.

Advent
The stalemate against Ulic Qel-Droma, one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in history, was a battle that "could have gone on for hours" (Dark Side Sourcebook), indicating Kun's stamina and reserves of strength against someone equally as skilled as he was.

Matthew Stover provided a similar quote for Sidious against the [more] impressive Mace Windu, of which you are aware.

Advent
Powerful Sith sorceress Aleema tries to blast Kun with Sith magic, but the assault is shrugged off by Kun without so much as flinching. Then he uses the same ability to knock her out cold.

How powerful is Aleema? I would reference Sidious's performance against the extraordinarily powerful Galen Marek and the subsequent steps Marek had to take (becoming one with the Force, destroying the observation tower) in order to stall Sidious.

Advent
Palpatine has more expansive knowledge by far + a better command over the Force through experience, but Kun is stronger, and combined with his artifacts, Sith arcana, and saber abilities, he's more dangerous.

This would need to be more substantiated. Stronger? How so? More dangerous? How so?

Originally posted by Advent
Are you embracing their argument then? I don't understand because you say 'the utter hypocrisy of the Antedelivian' and remind me that I'm 'neglecting it' (wouldn't that be a good thing?). My beliefs are that if it says "most powerful" it means "most powerful" unless there's reasonable evidence from the context of the passage that contradicts that. In Palpatine's case, every last quote that I've seen (so far, at least) has been under the assumption of political power or written from an in-universe perspective that don't have the authority to make such a claim.

Oh, so you mean you use a different standard from one case. Ok. It's a reference to Kun's military power or just in context of the era. The last.
Can we say 'hypocrisy,' Advent? You suddenly decide the quotes can mean something else. When you have DIRECTLY argued in the past in-universe quotes that are major enough tend to be just author mouthpieces. When power is used with the Sith it tends to be power in the Dark Side. So the quote in Vader the Ultimate Guide? Get over it.
"
"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.""
Yeah, is Vader planning to defeat Palpatine in a political debate? Or perhaps militarily? No, he wants to get an apprentice so they can kill the most powerful Sith together. In this context, of needing someone else to physically defeat an opponent you can't beat on your own, what do you think 'power' MEANS? When Dooku realized next to yoda he 'was not the most powerful' after all, did he mean Yoda wielded more political clout?
There's WAY more context here than any of that quote for Kun.

And yeah, the author of the official galactic histories who is familiar with Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow blowing up suns, Exar Kun using the amulet, freezing the senate and the like isn't a decent authority. Sure. Right


What? The entire two page article is about Sith Lords from the PT, OT and Old Republic. It says that he's "the most powerful and dangerous [b]of all Sith Lords
", it's reasonable to assume it was including people like Palpatine because...he's profiled on the page immediately before. You're looking for things that aren't there.

Yeah, and you'll notice all of it is written in a differing context relating on the era being discussed? Kun is the most dangerous and powerful when compared to Ulic, Nadd and Sadow.


Lightsnake, the more recent quote from Vader: the Ultimate Guide has the pretense of political power.

This is a deliberate twisting of the truth

It was clearly defined as being such and I explained why already. It isn't a double standard.

Bullshit. As I explained above, this is blatant bias that makes precisely no sense.
Prove Kun's quote is in a context that precludes it being military or political power, given he ruled a sizable brotherhood in the end that, according to the KOTOR comics, was giving the galaxy a run for its money.

Oh, and the context, I reiterate in case you didn't get it the first time:
"
"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.""
Wait, could this be you taking the former ACTION of this-Vader wanting political power- and applying it to an almost independent sentence?
Sorry, but the sentence directly implies Vader cannot defeat Palpatine because of his PERSONAL POWER.


Actually, I said if we're disregarding quotes like those, then yes, it is a matter of opinion as to who's the most powerful ever since Kun and Palpatine are basically among the most powerful Sith Lords regardless. [/B]

who needs to disregard anything when your single quote is woefully out of date and all the tedious distortions of what overwrites it mean nothing at the end of the day.

And even disregard them, we can just apply plenty else. Knowledge? Showings? You name it. The ponytailed prince comes up short

Palpatine has more expansive knowledge by far + a better command over the Force through experience, but Kun is stronger, and combined with his artifacts, Sith arcana, and saber abilities, he's more dangerous.

Except...Kun isn't stronger. He lacks a better control of the Force, he lacks expressions of power to put him up there...and oh, yeah, Palpatine's collection of lore and arcana eclipses Exar's ten times over at a conservative estimate.

Not to mention Palpatine with the saber is easily comparable to or superior than Exar.

Clearly somebody's a little envious over the ponytail.

"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known."

A quote that is entirely subject to indirect narration. An original reference to Vader's personal thoughts ("Vader imagined..."😉, with the entire passage remaining to be stated from his perspective ("But first, he would...", "By himself, he could not..."😉.

Originally posted by ApolloCIoud
Clearly somebody's a little envious over the ponytail.

Time for another ban

Reported.

Harsh, though envy is a sin.

wut?

I do not think you fully understand my motives. In fact, I think you're projecting.

I was still hung up on the ponytail, which is totally super-dreamy btw.

It would mean very very much to my opinion of Yoda IF I knew for sure whether sidious lost his lightsaber to yoda, or if he simply put it away.

That would make all the difference to me in ROTS Sidious and ROTS Yoda threads.

truejedi
It would mean very very much to my opinion of Yoda IF I knew for sure whether sidious lost his lightsaber to yoda, or if he simply put it away.

According to the official script, which is G-canon, Yoda disarmed the Emperor.

The problem therein is that the script does not seem to make any sense whatsoever: Yoda disarms Sidious; Sidious blasts Yoda with Force lightning; Yoda deflects the lightning back towards Sidious "and it appears as though the Dark Lord is doomed"; Yoda vows to kill Sidious and presses the advantage... before letting him go.

Unlikely, not to mention that Palpatine was not on the Chancellor's podium when the duel resumes in the movie; rather, Yoda is seen leaping from the podium to pursue Sidious.

It's entirely possible that Yoda disarmed him; Sidious was thirteen years out of practice. But circumstances would have to be right: how would an unarmed Sith Lord escape from Yoda at close quarters and apparently put colossal distance between them?

Perhaps he temporarily incapacitated Yoda? Who knows?

Originally posted by Gideon
According to the official script, which is G-canon, Yoda disarmed the Emperor.

The problem therein is that the script does not seem to make any sense whatsoever: Yoda disarms Sidious; Sidious blasts Yoda with Force lightning; Yoda deflects the lightning back towards Sidious "and it appears as though the Dark Lord is doomed"; Yoda vows to kill Sidious and presses the advantage... before letting him go.

Unlikely, not to mention that Palpatine was not on the Chancellor's podium when the duel resumes in the movie; rather, Yoda is seen leaping from the podium to pursue Sidious.

It's entirely possible that Yoda disarmed him; Sidious was thirteen years out of practice. But circumstances would have to be right: how would an unarmed Sith Lord escape from Yoda at close quarters and apparently put colossal distance between them?

Perhaps he temporarily incapacitated Yoda? Who knows?

you're right that it doesn't make sense. I had always wondered, because Yoda is right up in the empourer's grill before the cut-away, he has Sidious trapped on the Senate podium, and is moving much faster than the empourer. Then they cut away, and bam, Yoda is in the SCREWED position.

The same thing happens with Kenobi and Anakin. Before the cutaway, Anakin is on the ground, and Kenobi is pushing both sabers down towards his throat, the sabers are obviously moving, Anakin is on the ground, flat on his back, Kenobi is standing. if you have ever lifted weights, you know the closer the weights get to you when you are putting them down,(bench press) the harder it is to keep from dropping them. THat is what is happening to Anakin here, and the sabers were moving from the very beginning.

Then cut-away, and they are both on their feet, going at it again.

Not very clear, that is for sure.

Either Palp was disarmed or decided it'd be safer fighting from a distance...both say good things for Yoda

Advent, let's go. I'm on a fragile timeframe here.

I'm not a thirty-minutes-or-it's-free pizza delivery service, Gideon. You will get what I give when I give it. When I have the time to write a well thought out response on the most controversial issue of this forum, I will give it.